Well it had a beginning and an end (not unbounded) but lovely nonetheless.
Questions to Ask Before Joining Any Churchainity Group Organization
- Thread starter Musicmaster
- Start date
Arbitors of orthodoxy, particularly strict arbitors cause me much sadness.
When I first accepted Christ as my savior there were three very different churches where I could have felowship:
The church that first sowed the seed ( preshchool Sundayschool);
The church that nurtured the seed ( youth ministry during my middle school and early high school time );
The chuch attended by those that finaly reaped the harvest (later high school and college ).
I talked this over with two of the pastors. Although the churches were quite different in expression, they preached Christ and Him raised [1 Cor 1:23]. The pastor of the third church told me that as he looked about that while society has many problems, the he could see the Holy Spirit working in the lives of believers across the spectrum of believing Christians.
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Later, when I was in the military, the post chaplin who was a wise old Presbyterian preacher went out of his way to refer soldiers with special concerns to other chaplins and civilian ministers, often theologicly in contrast.
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Years later I was attending a wonderful church with many gifted preachers. One Sunday, the pastor delivered an admonishment to the coongregation.
The Pastor, who is one of the most kindly men I have known told the congregation that one definition of blasphemy was calling the works of The Spirit evil.
It seems that a couple of churches in town were holding a revival. The teaching of these churches, and indeed the teaching of the revival (including tongues and healing) was contrary to the Southern Baptist teaching at this church. There was considerable grumbling about the revival and casting doubts on the quality of the conversions.
The kindly Pastor then repeated his definition of blasphemy and took on the harshest look I ever was on his face.
There are many churches that one or more aspects of their doctrine, or their expression of it. But I am circumspect regarding throwing stones at a church that preaches Christ.
When I first accepted Christ as my savior there were three very different churches where I could have felowship:
The church that first sowed the seed ( preshchool Sundayschool);
The church that nurtured the seed ( youth ministry during my middle school and early high school time );
The chuch attended by those that finaly reaped the harvest (later high school and college ).
I talked this over with two of the pastors. Although the churches were quite different in expression, they preached Christ and Him raised [1 Cor 1:23]. The pastor of the third church told me that as he looked about that while society has many problems, the he could see the Holy Spirit working in the lives of believers across the spectrum of believing Christians.
----
Later, when I was in the military, the post chaplin who was a wise old Presbyterian preacher went out of his way to refer soldiers with special concerns to other chaplins and civilian ministers, often theologicly in contrast.
----
Years later I was attending a wonderful church with many gifted preachers. One Sunday, the pastor delivered an admonishment to the coongregation.
The Pastor, who is one of the most kindly men I have known told the congregation that one definition of blasphemy was calling the works of The Spirit evil.
It seems that a couple of churches in town were holding a revival. The teaching of these churches, and indeed the teaching of the revival (including tongues and healing) was contrary to the Southern Baptist teaching at this church. There was considerable grumbling about the revival and casting doubts on the quality of the conversions.
The kindly Pastor then repeated his definition of blasphemy and took on the harshest look I ever was on his face.
There are many churches that one or more aspects of their doctrine, or their expression of it. But I am circumspect regarding throwing stones at a church that preaches Christ.
The asking of questions, such as those outlined in this thread by various members, can be good things, and asked without 'judging by the appearance...'. I'm hoping we can both agree with that, especially given that there are quite a number of churches and cults that hide their inner core beliefs, wanting to slowly indoctrinate people with the soft sell, such as what mormonism does, letting people learn slowly the hidden beliefs that they never admit when going door to door.
Some of it is quite insidious.
MM
Someone once told me 'flattery is a form of hatred'.
Someone once told me 'flattery is a form of hatred'.
Huh? I tried to couple that together with that verse in the Bible, and the topic, and can't seem to figure out your comment and how it parallels that post, and your meaning.
Would you enlighten me, please?
Thanks
MM
People seduce with flattery. Deception is all around, even in churches.
This set of questions is not designed to identify cults as much as it is to assess where in the spectrum of Christian thought the church lies (in the words of the OP to "take the doctrinal temperature").
Note that doctrine is teaching about truth (and not truth itself even if one BELIEVES it to clearly taught by scripture) and thus doctrine always contains elements from the men that interpret and apply the scripture according to their understanding.
There are Bible believing Christians and churches that would reword some of these questions, or to answer several questions in differing ways.
I still contend that the most important question by far is "What does this church say about Christ and His ministry". Sin, salvation, approach to the Bible, how to serve the Lord all proceed from this core.
When looking for a church, one should look for a place where he can support and be supported by its ministries. It is also good to be challenged and allow ones self to be taught as well as affirm the teaching.
But do not make the assumption that because you are a christian and you believe one way that whatever deviates from your belief, however fervant, must not be christian or scriptural.
I can see that we dance to a different tune. The outflow of your thinking along this line seems to point at the idea that none of us can possibly harbor within us the absolute truth of scripture, and therefore it not being possible that we can absolutely see anything that deviates as the falsehood that it is. I reject that, but like everyone else, you are free to believe as you wish. The harsh reality is that the spiritual temperature of differing believers has variations across a fairly narrow spectrum...more narrow than many would think exists, given that absolute truth differentiates everything into the realm of black and white at the exclusion of shades of gray that the world believes is the reality.
But, more power to ya.
MM
Our knowledge is by the ministry of the Spirit, through the Word, but even that is full and complete, so that we may still learn faith and lean on God rather than our understanding:
1 Corinthians 13:12 (NASB)
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
Yet you seem sure of your position. So sure that you not only propose to judge your brothers, but to teach your brothers to do the same (but according to your standards of measure). Are you willing to stand/fall before the Lord by the accuracy of your position?
Matthew 7:1-5 (NASB)
1 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
1 Corinthians 13:12 (NASB)
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
Yet you seem sure of your position. So sure that you not only propose to judge your brothers, but to teach your brothers to do the same (but according to your standards of measure). Are you willing to stand/fall before the Lord by the accuracy of your position?
Matthew 7:1-5 (NASB)
1 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
I appreciate your thoughts along this line, but as I said, we are not dancing to the same tune. The departures from absolute truth exist out there, and the ecumenical spirit is flowing like raw sewage throughout much of what is called "Christendom" today. I don't buy it. You quoted Matthew 7, now let me quote something else for you:
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
The context of your quote is in relation to injustice on the basis of hypocrisy, which is indeed a false foundation from which to judge others, so your use of those passages are suspect to say the least.
To parrot the idea that we are to never judge others...no. That's not at all what Jesus taught. The quote from John 7 is in relation to Moses and the Law, not from hypocrisy. That one verse, therefore, is not constrained by the context, but is universal in scope BECAUSE it points to "righteous judgment" rather than the unrighteous judgment that is the context of Matthew 7.
I don't mean to be sounding like I'm pitting God's word against itself. That's not my intent. I'm speaking against the usage applied to the verses herein.
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.
Amen
MM