Numbers 31 This view of God and love?

Discussion in 'Biblical Advices' started by Alan McDougall, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. Numbers 31 This view of God and love?

    Numbers Chapture 31?

    I have great difficulty in rationalizing this chapter with a concept of a good loving God as depictured by the lord Jesus Christ. Someone help me please! The bible states that God is the same, yesterday, tomorrow and forever.

    This does not seem to be the case if one analyses and compares the awful chapter 31 of the book on Numbers, in relation to the loving, forgiving, Father God, that the Lord Jesus presented in the four gospels. Answer this and I will be able to press on. Note I do not have much time left. I am so tired and weary now!
    Alan McDougall 14/7/2007

    1) Verse: 2 the Lord said to Moses take vengeance on the Midianites. In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you. Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance.

    2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord. This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill. Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence.

    3) Verses: 6-13 here the armies of Israel go out and destroy, spoil, burn and steal and plunder on Gods command. In addition, they slaughter all the adult males however; this is not sufficient bloodletting slaughter to please Moses or God as we read from verse 14.

    In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger

    4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males.

    So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the “little boys”. In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying.” Kill all the woman” except those that have not had "sex with a man". How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not?.

    There was definitely no gynecologist way back in 300O B.C. WERE THERE? So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman’s age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not.

    5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation. You know if one takes out the title God and Moses and replaces them with Hitler and Rudolf Hess, no one would question that it was the work of the evil Hitler regime. Would they?
    6) Alan McDougall 13/7/2007
  2. Generally, an unmarried young woman would have been a virgin. If a girl was still living in her father's household, then she would have been unmarried.

    The reason the midianite women were killed is that they had been the ones who originally caused the Israelites to sin.

    Jesus' words are supposed to contrast with the Old Testament. Jesus continually defies the common wisdom and demands behavior that seems irrational.
  3. I can only say this- those who are not under grace are under the law and this is a harsh master indeed. IT would seem as though satan tried to stop God's promises (through Abraham and his seed) anyway he could and this was always met by judgment. We are all worthy of death and only those who find His grace will be spared. No I do not understand everything but God is slowly helping me along as He does with all who call on Christ.
  4. God is true and just, his judgements are righteous. He doesn't contradict himself, he is not a man that he can lie.

    His judgement is true and he often uses his servants to carry out the sentance.

    The bible does not say, "Thou shalt not kill", that is a mistranslation of "Thou shalt not murder". If it did say, "Thou shalt not kill" then we would all have to be vegetarians, for "thou shalt not kill" is not human specific, "Thou shalt not murder" is.

    God is faithful and true. Hitler murdered innocents, this God does not do. He loves all his children and it is out of this love that he provides righteous judgement.
  5. Perhaps if you repeated the question... I'm sorry, but I have trouble addressing long posts like that.:)
  6. Numbers 31

    Your replies and my comments?

    Generally, an unmarried young woman would have been a virgin. If a girl was still living in her father's household, then she would have been unmarried.(How the hek would plundering murdering Israelites take the time to note if each woman they had captured was still living with their father at the time of the invasion? also many elderly woman could have been virgins?)

    The reason the midianite women were killed is that they had been the ones who originally caused the Israelites to sin.
    ( Ahh!!! You just gave me a way out blame someone else for my sins, and then ask god if I can murder/kill them)

    The bible does not say, "Thou shalt not kill", that is a mistranslation of "Thou shalt not murder". If it did say, "Thou shalt not kill" then we would all have to be vegetarians, for "thou shalt not kill" is not human specific, "Thou shalt
    not murder" is.

    The bible translates as kill, but anyway your logic is that if you think God has told you to murder someone, it is ok

    Nu 31:17
    Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
    h'Via-l'k.w @'J;B r'k'z-l'k .Wg.rih h'T;[.w
    .Wg{r]h r'k'z b;K.vim.l vyia t;[;d{

    grhHarag (haw-rag'); Verb,

    1. to kill, slay, murder, destroy, murderer, slayer, out of hand
      1. (Qal)
        1. to kill, slay
        2. to destroy, ruin
      2. (Niphal) to be killed
      3. (Pual) to be killed, be slain

    Please rethink your inadequate answers, there are uncomfortable things about the scriptures we must all face understand and reconcile
  7. the bible has been a battle in words from the start,this running battle has happened throughout history and everybody is affected.the only conclusion i can think of is that evil has been at work.follow Jesus and count the times he talks about God,and then the a Good version of the bible.WHO MADE MAN AND WOMEN,Jesus tells us if the 2nd version of genesis was correct he would have said i made them.
  8. Alan: Please be kind in your answers with your brothers and sisters in Christ. When someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't necessarily mean that their response is an inadequate answer; or that your perception is the final authority.

    We are, all of us, on a journey to find the truth. None of us has attained perfect knowledge...yet.:eek:

    Everybody has the right to an opinion.:)

    Thank you kindly, Sir.:D
  9. alan the real truth will provail keep searching.:)
  10. The reason the virgins were kept alive- well, surely you can discern that simply by reading the text! They wouldn't want elderly virgins, even if they existed.

    Indeed, the Israelites sinned, and they suffered their own punishment prior to this.

    If God commands it, is it a sin?
  11. they wouldn,t want elderly virgins,but there master would want to corrupt all.hhhmmmm who does this sound like.:mad:
  12. Scripture is hard to interpret. I am loathe to admit that God is bipolar (so to speak), because God does not contradict Himself. I would answer this in saying God has greater wisdom than us and knows what is best for all people--the Assyrians made war against the Israelites and the Babylonians enslaved the nobles. God delivered the Israelites into their hands because of their iniquities. Couldn't the other nations be delivered into the Israelites' hands because of their iniquities? This punishment could be enough to cause the people to repent, or cause others to repent.
    I don't know if my answer is adequate enough to address all the questions you have with the interpretation of Scripture, but if I think of something, I'll post it. ;)
  13. Bipolar no- we are under grace or we are judged by the law.
  14. scripture is for then and now.this is the word,when scripture is obsolete then it is not inspired.for example sharpen your sword from inside to ouside
  15. Numbers 31

    I have a really hard time reconciling this view of God with the loving holy Father of the Lord Jesus. If we replaced the word God with that of say Genhgis Kahn , no one would despute the truth of the story.

    "Try it and you will see"

    Of course God is Supreme and can do just what he likes without asking our permission.

    Perhaps old Moses got a bit carried away and did more than God requested, but this is pure speculation on my part.

  16. See what i mean replaced God with Genhis Kahn

    Nu 31:1
    And GenghisKahn spake unto His brother Kubler, saying,

    Nu 31:2
    Avenge the children of Mongol hordes of the Chinaites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

    Nu 31:3
    And His brother Kubler spake unto the people, saying, Arm ye men from among you for the war, that they may go against China, to execute Genghis Kahn’s vengeance on China.

    Nu 31:6
    And His brother Kubler sent them, a thousand of every tribe, to the war, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the vessels of the sanctuary and the trumpets for the alarm in his hand.

    Nu 31:13
    And His brother Kubler, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

    Nu 31:14
    And His brother Kubler was wroth with the officers of the host, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who came from the service of the war.

    Nu 31:15
    And His brother Kubler said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?


    Nu 31:17
    Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

    Nu 31:18
    But all the women-children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

    Nu 31:25
    And Genghis Kahn spake unto His brother Kubler, saying,

    Nu 31:28
    And levy a tribute unto GenghisKahn of the men of war that went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, [both] of the persons, and of the oxen, and of the asses, and of the flocks:

    Nu 31:29
    Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for GenghisKahn’s heave-offering.

    Nu 31:30
    And of the children of Mongol hordes half, thou shalt take one drawn out of every fifty, of the persons, of the oxen, of the asses, and of the flocks, [even] of all the cattle, and give them unto the Levites, that keep the charge of the tabernacle of Genghis Kahn.

    Nu 31:31
    And His brother Kubler and Eleazar the priest did as Genghis Kahn commanded His brother Kubler.

    Nu 31:37
    and Genghis Kahn’s tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

    Nu 31:38
    And the oxen were thirty and six thousand; of which Genghis Kahn’s tribute was threescore and twelve.

    Nu 31:39
    And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which GenghisKahn’s tribute was threescore and one.

    Nu 31:40
    And the persons were sixteen thousand; of whom Genghis Kahn’s tribute was thirty and two persons.

    I had to prune
  17. God is truth, light and love.
    His way is perfection, his words are true and his works are just.

    God is not a man, that he can lie.

    The only thing imperfect, is our understanding of his wisdom and grace...amazing grace. His ways are higher than the heavens above our ways.

    It's like someone who barely understands addition, trying to argue with a mathematician, who derived his answer using calculus. A beginner in math, cannot fathom the process of calculus.

    His math is incomprehensibly higher than our math. His love is incomprehensibly higher than our love. The mountains and streams, the birds and the bees, the flowers in spring all loudly proclaim his glory.
  18. Alan

    It may not always be easy, but it is very simple.

    God either “is” or He “isn’t”. There is nothing in-between.

    The Bible is either the Word of God, or it isn’t.
    It’s either all true, or none of it is true.

    God doesn’t want you to spend the rest of your life trying to understand one chapter in the Bible.
    Satan would love for you to spend the rest of your life doing that.
    Your life her on earth isn’t about you. God didn’t put you here so you could “understand” everything. God didn’t put you hear just so you could get sufficient, satisfactory, or adequate answers. It’s not about you and what you know or what you understand. It’s about God. It’s all about God. Everything here on earth is all about God.

    And if I were you, I would get down on my knees and repent for what you just did with God’s Word. Replacing God’s name with someone else’s, in my opinion, is a huge mistake.

  19. What many fail to see is that if anyone dies outside of Christ that person is only getting what they deserve. We are all hell worthy each and everyone. It is only God's mercy that any can be saved.
    God is love, but God is also just, righteous, holy- the list can go on forever. What can we (the clay) say to the potter (God)? God is no Ghengis Kahn be He is able to at any time righteously pronounce judgment on any man. The people we see in the Old Covenant that are punished are idolaters. they sacrifice babies and other humans- every element of their societies are ungodly and they had no intention of repenting. We can see by Nineveh that if there was a chance of repentance God would call on them to change.
    What is all boils down to Alan is that we have to trust God's judgments- He is either worthy of that trust or He is not. He has indeed shown Himself worthy though as we all deserved the same horrible death but instead God sent Jesus Christ to bear that for us. The wages of sin are still death, the only one difference is our debt has been paid.
    Much love and many blessings in Jesus Name, your brother Larry.
  20. You fail to get my point


    You fail to get my point; Jesus said God is not a respecter of persons. "All people are Gods creation not just born again Christians". If God is going to put 99.99999999999999999999999999999. Of his human creation into hell, MAN!!!!! He cannot be a prefect being and makes colossal mistakes. Humanity is therefore just one enormous awful error by a so-called perfect God. I dont not buy the view that God is just black and white, this or that, read the bible and you will see he has grey areas indeed.


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