Judgment as a redemptive force in the life of believers

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Michael Collum, May 12, 2010.

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  1. Judgment as a redemptive force in the life of believers

    okay this is a spinoff of another article i wrote elsewhere . that aspect didn't get to get discussed . so i'm starting a thread here .

    the article can be located at :http://www.christianforumsite.com/b...ps-no-records-wrongs-judgment.html#post217679

    but anything in response to the last bit of the conversation there (the doctrine of hell vs purgatory) will be considered off topic .

    The Topic Proper .

    So it says that Judgment begins with the house of God in one of Peter's letters .

    1 Peter 4:15-18 (King James Version)

    15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
    16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
    17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
    18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

    So how does the judgment act as a redemptive force in the life of believers?

    How does our choice to show mercy to other people affect this part of our life in Jesus Christ?

    How does suffering play a role in this transformative process?
  2. I would like to thank John Jervis for your response

    Thank you :)
  3. 1 John 4 (New International Version)

    16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
    God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

    James 2 (New International Version)

    12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

    1 Peter 1 (New International Version)

    5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

    James 1 (New International Version)

    2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
  4. Hi Michael,

    I'm sorry the other thread was closed. I believe there is much more to be discussed on the doctrines of Hell and Purgatory. Sadly, such a fiery subject often brings out the worst in people; and few people are willing to seriously consider evidence that is contrary to their traditional beliefs.

    As to Judgment, people often fail to realize that there are two basic types of judgment - Remedial and Punitive. Remedial judgement has at its heart the positive change of the one being judged, being rooted in love and forgiveness. Punitive judgment has at its heart the vindication of the one doing the judging, being rooted in unforgiveness and hate.

    Greek has two words for judgment - kolasis and timoria. Kolasis is Remedial Judgment; and timoria is punitive judgment. The word used primarily in scripture concerning judgment is kolasis and thus speaks of Remedial judgment.

    Remedial judgment has at its heart love and forgiveness and is meant for the good of the one being judged. It's terrible, but it's positive. It's the judgment of a loving father towards his children. Any punishment inflicted is meant to bring a positive change in the one being punished. This is the judgment that God has towards us humans for He loves all of humanity. This is the judgment pictured in the lake of fire and brimstone. It is the judgment that Isaiah faced when he faced the Lord and had the coal of fire from the altar (divine fire, brimstone) put to his lips, cleansing him of sin and bringing a positive change in him, making him a prophet of God.

    Paul alludes to this judgment when he speaks of turning a brother over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit might be saved. Paul also speaks of us all facing such judgment, having the worthless things of our lives (wood, hay, and stubble) being burnt up and even the valuable elements of our lives (gold, silver, precious stones) being purified by fire.

    Sadly, God has been sadistically portrayed as vindictive and unforgiving, holding the sins of humanity against them unless they believe, repent, confess, be baptized, and live life righteously - or various combinations of these depending on the specific denomination one belongs to. But of course the essence of the Gospel is that God loves us and does not hold our sins against us; rather, He has reconciled us through the sacrifice of Christ and given us believers this ministry of reconciliation. God does not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and a sound mind! God is love and God loves us; in fact, God loves all of humanity!
  5. Hey Sherman,

    I appreciate your understanding as i appreciate probly just about every other understanding of the scriptures when it comes from a heart of love . we need to continue this in PMs . and maybe bring it up at another time when the precept "love believes all things" can give room for a "rejoicing in all truth" for all . love still needs to mature deeply before an environment of learning is available for this topic .

    but let's shift from eschatology to present day application .

    Questions for everyone

    how does the lake of fire pouring down from God purify our souls daily? Is there a fire of God? what does it do to you? is God a consuming fire to you as the Psalms say .. or as a flame that does not consume the bush as Moses saw ?

    if the wine of God's wrath is not mixed for those who inherit wrath . what is it mixed with for those who are not appointed to wrath?

    if (as the scriptures say) we have confidence on the day of judgment because we are like Him in this world .. in which ways are we like Him? can we be like Him even if it doesn't seem so? can humility blind us to the glory within us? what confidence is being spoken of? Are you confident? what is this confidence like? after writing out your thoughts .. what kind of confidence is this? does it sound like confidence, trust, silent expectancy or does it sound proud, boastful, loud? is it rooted in your relationship with Jesus Christ?

    Are you confident if the day of judgment was today? Why? Why not? is it possible to be confident? How do you know?
  6. I believe that judgment is as much a present reality as it is an eternal reality. And I have experienced the present reality of judgment. Several years ago I was reading the passage of the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. In that passage Jesus says, "those who have been forgiven much, love much." I'd always been a pretty "good" church-going boy, never getting into drugs, alcohol, sexual immorality, etc. This passage really challenged me. I remember saying to the Lord,

    "Lord, you know I love you. I've loved you all my life and I've never got into all the sin that this woman had. But I want to love you more, with more passion. I don't think I should go out and sin so that you can forgive me and I'd love you more. I don't know what to do to love you more. What can I do to love you more?"

    Well, the Lord knew there was nothing "I" could do to love Him more; but there was plenty that "HE" could do. In answer to that prayer, over the next several years I experienced the fiery judgment of the Lord. Frankly, it burnt the hell out of me. He began uncovering the wickedness of my heart, my pride, self-righteousness, selfishness, false-humility, lazyness, etc. I encountered a series of experiences and words from God that revealed just how big a mess I was/am. In these encouters I was judged; my negative attitudes were condemned but I was loved. These judgments worked in me a tremendous love for God, far more passionate than I every dreamed possible. These judgments delivered me greatly from these attitudes, working in me a more passionate love for people - a love that keeps no record of wrongs, a love filled with mercy and forgiveness, a love that never fails. I dread and yet long for the full judgment of the Lord. I'm confident that I've only tasted a little of eternal judgment, but long for more of its purifying fire. The fire of Truth will burn the hell out of you!
  7. i share a similar journey . i agree the fire of the Truth will burn the hell out of you . and in many ways has in me also .

    Ever experience a drunkeness when under the judgment fire? a seeming delusive layer like dross .. and until it is sloshed off .. its like .. i could say anything and i might even think "this is the word of the LORD!" hm a great experience . but not to be undertaken lightly . for sure .
  8. You know, scripture speaks of not being drunk on wine but being filled with the Holy Spirit. And of course, on the day of Pentecost, those who were filled with, baptized in the Spirit were said to have been drunk. I too have experienced being so filled with the Spirit that it was similar to being drunk. I could barely stand. In fact, I passed out for a short time. While that was happening, scripture would role through my mind and I understood it like never before. It was like having the lights turned on, or changing from watching TV in black and white to watching it in HD.
  9. I think our delight is to be in the Lord .. the psalmist even says "also" . i think it is okay to enjoy creation and enjoy God .

    Being drunk and enjoying a drink are two different things . one is done with a heart of thanksgiving the other with a heart of covetousness . and there inlies the difference . the heart .

    1 Corinthians 4 (New International Version)

    4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

    1 Corinthians 14 (New International Version)

    24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand/inquirer comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
  10. And i think .. hmm i have fallen asleep at times when it was too much to take in .. and i didn't even remember going to bed hehehe

    but there's some kind of stabilizing effect when other people are around and i stay conscious
  11. So .. hmm the passage in 1st Corinthians 14 is curious .. so prophecy can leadd to people's hearts being laid bare .. and then coming to faith . this also seems to have to do with "judgment"

    what do you make of it Sherman?
  12. Yes .. Yes .. Yes .. Yes ..
  13. You are welcome Michael. It was actually a pleasure :)

  14. No question about it John .... Thanks . It is black and white with no grey are in between . God's Word is yay and amen .
  15. hmm very cool! hehee okay had another thought on "applicatory judgment"

    1st Thessalonians 5
    12Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 14And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else. 16Be joyful always; 17pray continually; 18give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
    19Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil.
    23May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

    So my observation came from verses 19-22 from 1st Thessalonians Chapter 5 and i was thinking that since we were talking about fire earlier . might open the floor up . what does this tell us about our spiritual capacity to judge now? and the way we are to judge? And how is this set of instructions .. redemptive compared to the Old Covenant way of judging prophecies?
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