John The Baptist And The Harlot Of Revelation...

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by The Town Crier, Jun 8, 2014.

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  1. #1 The Town Crier, Jun 8, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
    Who really wrote Revelation and when…

    We are told in Revelation 1:1-2 that ‘the one who bare record’ is given ‘the revelation’:

    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    Who was it that ‘bare record of the word’ and the things ‘that he saw’? It was John the Baptist:

    Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
    Joh 1:34 And
    I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    Scripture clearly states that John the baptist is the one who 'bare record'...Nowhere in scripture will you find that 'John the apostle' was sent to bear record of Jesus...Please read the small 8 page PDF (attached at the bottom of the thread)and consider the ramifications of it. It will change your whole perspective on what is taking place today. (For those of you who are familiar with what I believe about Babylon, this will shock you because I have had to change my view of things in light of this fact) I welcome your feedback if you will read the short PDF. If you have not read it, please do not comment as you need to read what I wrote, in order understand where I am coming from...I look forward to discussing this with you all (Mods- this is kind of a touchy subject, so please give us a little leeway before you lock it up on us!)

    Thanks,
    TC
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Here is a little easier view of it- the other was a copy and paste, but ran out of 'editing time'!

    TC
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Nonsense. John the Baptist was beheaded while Jesus was in active ministry, but Revelation was penned some sixty years later by John the apostle while he was in exile on the isle of Patmos.

    There is no real point in trying to lead people astray about who recorded the revelation of Jesus Christ. We don't have the luxury of time to lollygag and argue such silly things. After all, Jesus said, "Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds." (Revelation 22:12 NLT) Don't be found guilty of wasting time with this self-aggrandization.
     
  4. You sure do have a habit of dismissing scripture for the teachings of men. Where in the Bible does it say John was exiled?
    Also- read the verse again...It plainly says who John is:

    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    Who was it that ‘bare record of the word’ and the things ‘that he saw’? It was John the Baptist:

    Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
    Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    You cannot get around that scripture- it is clearly describing John the baptist. There is lots more proof of this, but like usual I bet you never read the PDF...

    TC
     
  5. No, I have a great habit of dismissing men's lofty ideas in favour of God's word.

    LOL! John the apostle was there with many others who witnessed Holy Spirit descend like a dove on Jesus!
     
  6. Really? No one else knew who Jesus was before John the baptist proclaimed Him to be the lamb of God.. Who was there.- show me where 'john the apostle' was at Jesus baptism and proclaimed him to be the Son of God. ..and use scripture to support that claim.

    TC
     
  7. Read the four gospels! No one really knows really, if John was one of the two of John's disciples who was present at Jesus' baptism and left him to follow Jesus. Simon Peter was, however. But there were crowds who all witnessed what John did.

    However, seeing as John the Baptist was killed during Jesus' ministry, and Revelation was penned sometime around A.D. 92, then your claims fall flat.
     
  8. #8 The Town Crier, Jun 9, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2014
    Euph...That is the whole point! You don't have the scripture proof that you need to say that John the apostle wrote Revelation. It all points to John the baptist because that is who wrote it and scripture says so. I read the four gospels. They clearly say that John the baptist is who was there, and it does not say anywhere that Simon Peter was there.

    The other problem is that there are no legitimate accounts that Revelation was written when you say it was. If you let scripture interpret scripture it is plain to see who 'bore record' and received the Revelation. Scripture is very clear on this irregardless of what you say history claims( neither history books nor the people that are written in them are as reliable as the Bible is). There is no reliable source that proves Revelation was written in or around 92 A.D.

    Scripture is clear and you cannot get around it- John the Baptist is the only person in the whole Bible that is credited as being who 'bore record of the word of God'- even John ch 1 says it plainly!...Again, go read the PDF and look at all the other evidence to support John 'the Baptist' as the John of Revelation...

    TC
     
  9. Well perhaps you can explain where J the B got papyrus and ink from in the out of town place he inhabited so as to write the book of Revelation?
    When/where is there compelling evidence that he was ever on the Isle of Patmos?
    How could he be expected to write letters to the seven Churches when said seven Churches had not yet come into being?
    Remember, he lost his head over an adulteress long before Jesus was crucified.

    One thing is sure though, whoever the 'John' was, he was well enough known to his intended readership that he gives no other introduction other than that he is John.....No other introduction was needed. Was J the B that well known throughout the regions serviced by the seven Churches???............TC, more study needed (y)
    We speculate about which John, but I doubt there would have been any such doubt in the minds of those who received the letters originally.
     
  10. I don't worry about the minor details. A throng of people was there as Jesus was baptized. John testified to two of his own disciples, and I did mistakenly say that it was Simon Peter that was there, but it was his brother, Andrew, who was there to hear John's declaration about Jesus and left to follow Him.

    Yours is a fabrication designed to cause doubt in the word of God---focusing on who penned what, rather than to foster belief in what God is actually saying to us, as the author.

    Reliable sources say that the book of Revelation was written in or around A.D. 92, by John the beloved.
     
  11. Hi Calvin and thanks for joining the discussion...Did you read the PDF by chance? It doesn't appear that you did or you might have a different attitude. There is no 'speculation' needed as scripture is plain on it. The problem is that folks today want to believe a different scenario when it comes to end times. As far as the 7 churches not yet being- that is part of the point. Revelation is a book of prophecy of things that were shortly coming to pass... On the other hand, who is to say that the 7 churches are those referenced by scholars rather than 7 church types through history which makes their existence time wise irrelevant! All of that is speculation anyway. We are dealing with just what scripture says, not what historians( non believing ones at that) have to say. The Bible clearly says that Revelation was given to the John that 'bare record' of the word of God:

    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
    Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    Only John the baptist fits that criteria...no matter what 'history' or 'scholars' try to say...I don't understand why people are so willing to overlook scripture and use the teachings of men/unreliable history instead. It isn't hard to see what scripture says-it is just hard for you to accept, because it will cause you to have to rethink the end times scenarios that you cling to. You can't refute the scriptures though and they are the authority on this and they are clear! Go read the 8 page PDF and then lets talk about it...

    http://www.christianforumsite.com/attachments/who-really-wrote-revelation-and-when-pdf.1074/

    TC
     
  12. Euph...sorry, but Andrew wasn't there either. And as far as your 'reliable' sources- they are only as reliable as you can verify. There is no proof-none whatsoever that john 'the apostle' was on the island of Patmos, or that he( at what would have been a very old age) went out prophesying about Revelation to people. There is too much proof that John the Baptist is John of Revelation...John ch 1 even verifies that it is him so why reject scripture:

    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
    Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    John 1 is in perfect harmony with Revelation for good reason...John the Baptist is the prophet of Revelation. John 'the apostle' was never called a prophet!

    Read the 8 page PDF... it spells it out in a way that is irrefutable.

    http://www.christianforumsite.com/attachments/who-really-wrote-revelation-and-when-pdf.1074/

    TC
     
  13. Andrew was there to hear John the Baptist announce who Jesus is.

    John never went about prophesying. He was exiled on Patmos and while there, he wrote the record of the revelation of Jesus Christ--from Jesus Christ.

    Nevertheless, it makes no difference to the understanding of the book.

    You're straining at gnats.
     
  14. Ok, during the time of John the Baptist Tiberius was ruler of the Roman Empire (if my memory is correct). When the Apostle John was sentenced to Patmos Domitian was ruler. Domitian is the one who sentenced the Apostle John to Patmos so I'm not really sure why you would think John the Baptist was the one who wrote Revelation? We are looking at a span of maybe 60 years or so? I'm not going to read your PDF so don't ask if I did. I'm going off of what I remember and what the Bible says :)
     
  15. You are correct that Andrew was there- the next day, but not when Jesus was baptised by John...And you prove my point...who is it that 'bares record' of Jesus...John the Baptist! Just like scripture says:

    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
    Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    I am not straining at gnats...I am reading the scriptures. Why do you reject them?

    You said "John never went about prophesying"...

    Wrong- the John of Revelation did, he was commanded to:

    Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

    You are rejecting the scriptures...as long as you do that, you will not understand them.

    TC
     
  16. #16 Euphemia, Jun 9, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2014
    John the Apostle certainly qualifies to have born record of the Word of God---Jesus---at any time!

    Revelation 1 (NKJV)
    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.

    9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    Revelation 1 (NLT)
    1 This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John, 2 who faithfully reported everything he saw. This is his report of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    9 I, John, am your brother and your partner in suffering and in God’s Kingdom and in the patient endurance to which Jesus calls us. I was exiled to the island of Patmos for preaching the word of God and for my testimony about Jesus.
     
  17. Hey Lance...thanks for the comment. Unfortunately-what you say has no merit. Where is your documentation that 'Domitian' sentenced John to Patmos? Just because a couple of 'historians' heard that it may have happened that way and wrote it in their journals is not sufficient evidence to overturn what scripture says happened. Also, where in scripture does it say John was' exiled'? It doesn't...it says he was there to receive the word of God and the testimony of Jesus from an angel:

    Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


    The scriptures are clear...John went to Patmos to receive the word of God. Nowhere in scripture does it say he was being 'exiled' or 'punished'. That is a 'historical' hypothesis but has not been proven anywhere by anyone... and it contradicts scripture. The PDF is very easy to read- it will take you like 5 minutes...


    TC
     
  18. Euph- the scriptures clearly say that John the Baptist is the one who 'bare record':

    Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
    Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    Again, why is it so hard for you to accept scripture for what it says?

    TC
     
  19. No. John was banished to Patmos for the preaching of the word of God and the testimony about Jesus Christ.
     
  20. Has the phrase, "bear record" hypnotized you or something? LOL!!
     
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