How to explain the Trinity

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Juk, Jun 17, 2015.

  1. The trinity is basically the reason why Muslims are not Christians. They don't understand it. But I heard this explanation online on YouTube on the Trinity.

    Here is how it goes:
    Since God is omnipotent, He can be at multiple places at once. And He can be in multiple forms at once, at the same time.

    That is what I remember from the explanation.

    Here is my version, though it might sound more "philosophical":
    The Godhead is made of three components. All are equal, and God cannot be without each of them. Three distinct persons, but they all make up God, or the Godhead, and they cannot be complete without each other all together.
    My theory is not complete yet, but that is what I think.

    How would you explain the Trinity?
  2. #2 Brother Paul, Jun 18, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
    There is only ONE YHVH….not two, not three….YHVH IS the Father, YHVH is the Son, and YHVH is the Spirit (but the Father is not the Son or Spirit, neither is the Son the Father or the Spirit, neither the Spirit the Son or Father)….the Father is the Lord, the Son is the Lord, the Spirit is the Lord, but there are not three Lord’s, only one. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God but there are not three God’s only one. God IS the Father, and the same one and only God IS the Son, and the same one and only God IS the Spirit.

    In Genesis 18, "YHWH appeared to Abraham at the oaks of Mamre" but He is in the form of a man. Just like the previous chapter, this one opens with almost identical language (compare wyera YHWH el Abram, Gen.17.1; wyera elyaw YHWH, 18.1). This YHVH (the One Abraham knew as his Lord) is before Him in a flesh form as a Man. YHVH enters his tent, sits and dines with him and then He sends forth the two men (angels in flesh form) to rain fire and brimstone down upon Sodom from YHVH in heaven. So who is the YHVH with Abraham and the YHVH in heaven…two YHVHS? God forbid! One YHVH revealed in two personae.

    In Exodus 3 the I AM who says He is the THE God of Moses fathers (Abrahm, Isaac, and Jacob) is identified as (YHVH-Malak) the Angel of the Lord. Read Exodus 3:1-3…it is the Angel of the Lord who says He IS YHVH. Yet here He is in a seeable form speaking to Moses, commanding and empowering Moses, commissioning Moses. He is the one Abraham knew as Lord!

    When Deuteronomy 6 says “Hear O’Israel, the LORD our God (YHVH-Elohim), the LORD (YHVH) is one (echad – a Unity), it tells us the one and only God is also a Unity. This is played out rather subtly but here are a couple of examples.

    Let us begin with Zechariah 2:10, 11. The scriptures read, “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of you, says YHVH. And many nations shall be joined to YHVH in that day, and shall be my people: and I (YHVH) will dwell in the midst of you, and you shalt know that YHVH of hosts hath sent me unto you.”

    So YHVH is going to come and dwell in the midst of His people when YHVH of Hosts sends Him. The original Masoretic even renders it this way…(note: the modern JPS Masoretic version has changed it because of its obvious implications).

    Now turn to Isaiah 48 where YHVH is definitely speaking…

    I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I hurried them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. Because I knew that you are obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow like unto brass. I have even from the beginning declared it to you. Before it came to pass I showed it to you so you could not say, My idol has done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, have commanded them.

    You have heard, see all this, and will not ye declare it? I have showed you new things from this time, even hidden things, and you could not know them. They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when had not yet heard them so you could not say, behold, I knew them. Yea, you heard not; yea, you knew not; yea, from that time when your ear was not even opened: for I knew that you would say how you would deal very treacherously, and were called a transgressor from the womb.

    For my name's sake will I defer mine anger (YHVH’s), and for my praise will I refrain and not cut you off. Behold, I have refined you, but not with silver; I have chosen you in the furnace of affliction. For my own sake, even for my own sake, I will do it: for how should my name be polluted? I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. My hand has also laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spanned the heavens. When I call unto them, they stand up together. All of you assemble yourselves and hear…which among them has declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

    I, even I, have spoken it. I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. Come near unto me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

    So once again, in the Hebrew we see YHVH speaking to Israel and though they are stubborn and even idolatrous, He loves them, has chosen them, and He will come to them. The LORD (YHVH) of Hosts and His Spirit will send Him (the YHVH who is speaking). Some renditions say the LORD of Hosts has sent me WITH His Spirit.

    So there is much more that can be said but this is already a four page answer. So I hope it has helped. I accepted the Triune explanation because of many instances such as these but I know there is ONY ONE YYHVH in nature, substance, essence. How the yachid God (numerically one) can be echad ( a Unity) is a mystery to me…many have tried to say iot is like the Sun…the radiance of brightness we can see would be the Son, the power and effectual doing of it would be like the Spirit, while the essence of it producing and controlling it is the Father but it is all ONLY ONE. Augustine tried to explain it this way.

    YHVH as the Son became a human (He did it), as the Father YHVH sent Him for this purpose (He did it), and as the Holy Spirit He conceived Him incarnate to make the body happen in the virgins womb (He did it).

    As a human being under the Old Covenant He was obedient unto death, even death on the cross. In His humanity He was subordinate to the Father, but not in His deity. YHVH is not subordinate to Himself as if He is two different beings, different in substance or essence. YHVH-Elohim is one in essence (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Timothy 2:5), but three in personae or person. Jesus is the brightness of the Glory (that of YHVH which can be seen) and the exact “representation” (outward manifestation) of His substance (see Hebrews 1:3). So they are not different in substance. YHVH is equally and totally YHVH, and ever remains so, regardless of revealing Himself as the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, Because all three are the same one and only YHVH-Elohim. They all have the same fullness of authority, fullness of power, and as the persons or personae, they have wills which are 100% in agreement. As a man however acquainted with hunger, sadness, and pain, the Messiah says “Not my will but yours be done.” He came to know what a person facing such judgment and peril would go through, but He went through it anyway for our sakes and for the sake of His Holy name, because He knew we could not gain remedy over the consequence of sin (the second death) and because He had promised (Genesis 3:15).

    So let me ask you? Do you believe Jesus is at least an honest man? You believe He would only tell us the truth? That He would not lie? Then carefully read this statement He made…

    John 5:37 Jesus says “And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.”

    Did you get that? Jesus is telling us NO ONE has EVER SEEN the Father or ever HEARD Him…

    YHVH is seen and heard. Did Jesus lie? No! He tells us elsewhere that the Son reveals Him…

    Exod 3:6Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

    Who appeared to Him and Spoke? The Angel of the LORD appears yet He is afraid to look upon God. It is YHVH but it was not the Father… But He is YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

    In Genesis 16:7–14Now the angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from and where are you going?” And she said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.” Then the angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority.” Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, “I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count.” The angel of the LORD said to her further, “Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD [e]has given heed to your affliction. He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone’s hand will be against him; And he will [f]live [g]to the east of all his brothers.” Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, “ You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?” Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.

    Genesis 22:11–12And the Angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not your hand upon the boy, neither do anything to him: for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son from me.

    From who? It was YHVH who commanded him to sacrifice Isaac! The Angel of the LORD IS YHVH.

    Numbers 22:31-38 The Angel of the Lord meets the prophet Balaam on the road. He allows Balaam to see Him. In verse 38, Balaam identifies the Angel who spoke to him as God.

    In Judges 2:1-3And an Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt (but it was YHVH), and have brought you unto the land which I swore unto your fathers (but it was YHVH); and I said, I will never break my covenant with you (YHVH made the covenant with Israel).

    And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

    Judges 6:11–23 The Angel of the Lord appears to Gideon but in verse 14 He refers to himself as God and in verse 21 He allows Gideon to sacrifice to him as to YHVH. Verse 22 shows Gideon fearing for his life because he has seen God.

    Judges 13:3–22 The Angel of the Lord appears to Manoah and his wife, they realize in verse 22 they have been dealing with God Himself.

    In Genesis 31:11the Angel of God calls out to Jacob in a dream and tells him "I am the God of Bethel" but if you remember when He wrestles with the “Man” at “Peniel” it was God he wrestled with. He even says he had seen God “face to face”.

    So this being Who many have seen and heard is undoubtedly YHVH and thus He is God, but not the Father because no one has ever seen or heard the Father at any time (unless Jesus s a liar). The Angel of the LORD is YHVH and He is Christ before He was born as a baby, and He is God…He is YHVH the Savior and there is none else (Isaiah 43:10)

    You are correct however when you say JESUS is not the Father! Jesus was born as a baby in Bethlehem as a human But before He came to earth as a human Baby He was God. He became God with us, God incarnate. But YHVH is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The one and only YHVH is all three and all three are the one God.

    Now then there is only ONE YHVH….not two not three….YHVH is the Father, YHVH is the Son, and YHVH is the Spirit (but the Father is not the Son or Spirit, neither is the Son the Father or the Spirit, neither the Spirit the Son or Father)….the Father is the Lord, the Son is the Lord, the Spirit is the Lord, but there are not three Lord’s only one. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God but there are not three God’s only one. God IS the Father and the same one and only God IS the Son, and the same one and only God IS the Spirit.
    Juk and Mykuhl say Amen and like this.
  3. All this is consistent with who Jesus is. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh and the manifestation of God. So when ever there was a record of God speaking or God manifesting, it was God the Son. What does the word angel mean? It means messenger, so The Angel of the Lord is an accurate name and title for God the Son, which is the Word of God.
    Juk likes this.
  4. Perhaps we can understand the Trinity by comparing Him to our own tripartite nature of soul, body, and spirit, since we were made in the image of God. God the Father being the soul, the Son being the body and the Spirit being the spirit. The soul consisting of the mind, will and emotions, the body houses the soul and spirit and enables them to act(it is only the body that we can observe do anything), and the spirit gives the life and empowers the other two parts. Of course the God head would be more complex than this but perhaps this is a good representation that we as humans can wrap our head around.
    Juk likes this.
  5. I wanted to base it upon our body, soul, and spirit, but I didn't have enough theology yet.
  6. Greetings:
    Man has free will;some pray to the Father,some pray to Jesus.So;The first is half(.5),the second is half(.5).
    And the Holy Ghost is (-1).At the Baptism,the Father spoke,Jesus was washed by John,the H.G. did nothing,but a form of deletion was manifested(a take awaying of the glories of the first and second).If my spouse turned into a dove,a deletion was done,and I would be free as a bird.A verse said that the H.G told some of the disciples something,so the Father or Son was removed;in order that those men would tell others,the spirit told us instead of the first&second,complicating matters.
    Juk likes this.
  7. Huh?
  8. #8 Great Fiction, Jun 18, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
    Yet the analogous corporeal body is not eternal, where as the mind and spirit are; a Monotheistic Trinitarian will believe three persons or three connected-entities derive from a same-eternal-substance ("one" substance) that is "eternal."

    Yet forgive my antagonism, as I do understand your point for a tripartite analogy. Many people use the egg in similar where antagonism would argue against the egg because of its ability to separate as three different kinds of matter in a solid state. The egg is triadic.

    "Tripartite" is an excellent terminological descriptor opposed to the word triadic which describes three individual units working in harmony. Also the word "triune" is preferred by some to say its not just one substance in three parts but three parts "in" one substance. Semantics are critical for many Monotheistic Trinitarians.
    Cturtle likes this.
  9. #9 Cturtle, Jun 18, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
    Jere is two examples that i have is that they are like an egg. Which has three parts, the shell the white and the yolk.
    The second one i heard of is a cherry pie. When you cut into the pie from the outside you can see three distinct pieces. But inside you cannot see the cuts or separation of them.
    Juk and Abdicate say Amen and like this.
  10. I am a Monotheistic Same-Substance Relational-Subordinate Trinitarian believer.

    However please do not confuse me with a Subordinationist, or a Modalist.
  11. Your second analogy is definitely the most delicious
    Abdicate likes this.
  12. I fully agree, and in my opinion and thoughts is the closest to the description of the trinity.

  13. We were made in the image of God Almighty - Soul, Body, Spirit = Father, Son, Spirit. Jesus is the expressed image of the Father, Heb 1:3, and the Spirit is the power, Rom 15:19, the "electricity", of the Father. The desire is of the Father, the Son is the physical wiring, and the Holy Spirit is the electricity running through the wire when the Father "flips on" the lights. :)
    Juk, Mykuhl and Cturtle says Amen and like this.
  14. Mykuhl HI,
    If Angels are created spirit beings to act as messengers - that is there roll - how then can it be said that the angel of the Lord is an accurate name and title for God the son which is the word of God ? If you would have said Michael or Gabriel as the Lords angel then it might have just flowed past. lol
    Thank You for explaining this to me
  15. And FAITH is the channel or means that carries this power. ;)
    Abdicate and Cturtle say Amen and like this.
  16. The reason I said that the title Angel of the Lord is an accurate description for God the Son is because He is the Word of God. An angel of God is a messenger of God. What does a messenger of God do but deliver a message, either in the form of words or a display of God's power(although indirectly if from a created being such as angel)? God the Son is the Word of God and manifestation of His power. So in this way the title The Angel of the Lord is an accurate one, and as already shown in scripture actually God.
  17. So let me ascertain your calculative methodology.

    If E=HG^2 - E being eternal and HG being the Holy Ghost, then (.5) spiritual gravitational concatenation is in a constant state of flux?

    Is this right?

    of course this is humor
  18. I have also heard explained similar to this but with this difference: The Father is the power company, The Son is switch that flips on the power and the Holy Spirit is the power/electricity. I personally believe that this is a more accurate description.
    Abdicate likes this.
  19. I was thinking of that first point when I made that description, that is part of the reason why I said that it is more complex than that. Although our corporeal body is not eternal(yet), Jesus' body is eternal. So, I think that description still fits.
  20. You will need to complete your analogy full circle in order to support Abidicates analogy that the Holy Spirit is the electricity of the Father in conjunction with your channel of faith.

    So if faith (the channel) is the wiring and the Holy Spirit is the electricity?
    Could the plastic poly-coat on the wire be the faith and the copper wire be works since faith without works is dead.
    Then we could we could also assign love as being the breaker-box since faith worketh by love
    Then also we could say that love never fails and love "is" God; for "God is love" which would say that God is analogous to the breaker box also.
    Then also God sent His son who ushered in the Holy Ghost "another comforter" thus we could assign Jesus as all the controls in a house that "turns on the electricity"

    Ok, just say it, I went to far

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