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Historical Premillennialism.

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Ezek33, Nov 28, 2009.

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  1. Historical Premillennialism.

    I am what you would call a ''Historical Premillennialist''. It is called the Historical view because it is just that, it is the view of the Apostles and their disciples, it is also the view taught by Jesus and Paul in the scriptures.

    The 1st Century Church including the apostles and thier immediate disciples believed and taught.........

    #1 That the church and the Israel of God are one. I do not believe in ''Replacement theology'' but that we were of 2 made 1 new man as taught in Ephesians 2:11-19 and that we are grafted into the true Israel of God as taught in Romans 11:17-24.

    #2 That the just of all ages will be resurrected at the posttrib 2nd coming and that immediately after the resurrection of the just those that have survived the tribulation and remain alive will be caught up or ''raptured'' at that time. That we the dead in Christ and the living saint will receive immortal heavenly bodies at the posttrib 2nd coming as we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air as taught in 1st Cor 15:51-53, Philippians 3:20-21, 1st Thess 4:15-17, and 1st John 3:2

    #3 At this point after the resurrection and the rapture Jesus will restore the Jewish nation that have not bowed to the anti christ as taught in Zechariah 12:10, Romans 11:25-26. Then He will purge the wicked by fire as taught in Matthew 3:12 and 2nd Thess 1:6-10. The Jews will enter the Millennium in their mortal bodies and populate it with mortal, while the church or the bride (those resurrected and raptured) will reign with Christ as kings and priests during the Millennium in immortal heavenly bodies as taught in Revelation 20:4-6.

    #4 At the end of the Millennium Satan will be loosed from the bottomless pit, he will deceive a great multitude of mortals God will destroy them, then will come the great white throne judgment as taught in Revelation 20:7-15.

    #5 After the Great White Throne judgment New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven to the New Earth we will live in the New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus Christ for all eternity, while the wicked suffer for all eternity in the Lake of Fire as taught in Revelation 21.

    P.S. The Heaven and Earth that exists now will not exists after the White Throne Judgment.
  2. Off subject, this exact thread was closed in another forum, because they said it promoted a Non-Trinitarian view of the Godhead. Is that crazy or what? How in the world did they get that out of the O.P.?
  3. Well Ezek, I sure agree with point 1 ! :)
  4. Well I am glad you agree because this is not original to me. Like I said it was taught to Polycarp by John the Revelator one of the 12 apostles. The Polycarp taught it to Irenaeus , and it was what the 1st century church all believed until catholicism declare premillennialism heresy in the late 4th century. So it would wise to understand that it was Christ that originally taught these beliefs to John. This is not my teaching, I like you simply agree. Furthermore it can be proven true with scripture.
  5. Hello, i think i tend to agree with the all-mill view, myself, although i am Only God knows when He is coming, as a thief, and whether in the second watch or the third, WE need to be on the alert, as He tells everyone.

    May God bless

    When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, Rev 20:7

    Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. John 12:31

    And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. Luke 10:18

    “For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.” Revelation 12:12
  6. The Spirit of Christ in me agrees with point 1 but nothing else there.
    I'm not into the theories of posttrib, 2nd coming, the tribulation or ''rapture'' or 2nd coming or any of that other futuristic stuff.
    Polycarp is not my spiritual guide, Jesus Christ is and His Word is.
    These words highlighted, none of them are scriptural and they only represent ideas that are placed into scriptures by the process of "eisegesis".

    Jesus is my everything right now.

    A lot of "futuristic" teachings are out there that would attempt to hijack who Jesus Christ is in me now, but none of them will :)

    Son of Jesus
  7. Well you need to re-read your Bible.

    #1 posttrib
    Matthew 24:29-31
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
    Mark 13:24-27
    24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
    25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
    26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Sound like ''posttrib'' to me.

    #2 2nd Coming.
    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
    Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    There is the scriptures for the ''2nd coming.''

    #3 The Tribulation
    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be
    Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    That proves the doctrine of the great tribulation

    #4 Rapture
    Granted the ''word'' rapture is not in the scripture but the concept the doctrine is certainly there and plainly stated. The rapture is the translation of the living saints into immortal heavenly bodies that occurs right after the just are resurrected at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ.

    1st Corinthians 15:51-53
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
    1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    There is the doctrine of the rapture right there in scripture.

    For you to say these doctrines or concepts are not scriptural is simply put wrong.
  8. I read my Bible morning noon and night Ezek. Don't be condescending please just because I don't agree with yours or polycarp's private interpretation, thank you.

    Matthew 24 was fulfilled in A.D. by the way as any Bible student will know.

    Jesus CAME into His Body at Pentecost also, as any Bible student will know.

    We ALL, each and everyone of us go through tribulation, as any Bible student will know.

    Christ has come into me as Promised, and into those who RECEIVE Him, as any Bible student will know.

    Ezek, don't bother me with your religion of "futurism" please, I am not interested. You get your interpretation from the 1830's spawned religion known as "dispensationalism", popularized by Scofield in his reference Bible. You do NOT get your interpretation from Christ.

    He is my guide.

    Son of Jesus
  9. It is not my or Polycarps teaching you disagree with, it is the common sense reading of scripture you reject. It is the teaching of the Apostle Paul who wrote 2/3 of the New Testament that you reject.

    Jesus has yet to return as He prophesied He would in Matthew 24 therefore Matthew 24 has not been fulfilled.

    Once you start spiritualizing prophesy I guess you can invent any belief you want and twist scripture to make it seem like actual events are spiritual events.

    #1 I am a futurist because that is what Jesus, Paul, and John taught.
    #2 I have no religion at all.
    #3 I am as far from a despensationalist as one can get, hence the O.P. ''HISTORICAL PREMILLENIALIST'' rather than desprensationalism.

    A dispensationalist would disagree with everything in the O.P. except the premillennial return of Christ.

    I am totally and aggressively opposed to dispensationalism. If you do not know the difference between biblical/historical premillennialism and dispensationalism then you probably shouldn't even be in this conversation.
  10. I don't reject anything of what Paul wrote. I told you to quit condescendingly address me sir. Just because you think something is "futuristic" doesn't make it so. You think you are a gifted clairavoyant just because you parrot other mislead futuristic "prophets"?
    If it isn't "Spiritual" it is wrong.

    (1Co 15:46)
    Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    Back off Ezek. You do not want to go rounds with me.
  11. Mislead futuristic prophet like Paul the Apostle or John the Revelator? The prophesies of Christ first coming were fulfilled literally and the prophesies concerning His 2nd coming will likewise be fulfilled literally.

    This is talking about the difference between the bodies we now have and the ones we will be resurrected into. As it is part of the answer Paul was giving to this question....
    1st Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    You either knew that and are being intellectually dishonest to make an invalid point.

    It seems you do not know who you are debating with. Preterism have been proving false over and over even Paul spoke out against it.
    2nd Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

    The blessed Hope of all believers is the future coming of Christ to resurrect the just into their immortal bodies to ever be with the Lord. Do you deny the believer their hope?
    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    There will be a literal and physical return of Christ in the fuuture when he will literally resurrect the righteous into immortal heavenly bodies. If you do not believe that then you are ignoring large portions of scripture.

    Like I said earlier. If you do not know the difference between biblical/historical premillennialism and dispensationalism then you probably shouldn't even be in this conversation.

  12. Well then. I do believe all the scriptures to be true and I will see you in heaven. However .....How da heck do you pronounce that word. my toung is wrapped around a berry bush:smiley90::smiley10:
    Very good post my brother.
    Chili out
  13. Funny my son .... At least we are on the same page as I don't know any of this what do say ... all these big words ... I am just an okey from miskokey.

    Anyways good reading Ezek ... thanks for the lesson . I don't think just bec ause there are folks like myself who don't know about all this , that we should be any smaller ot less of a Christian than any other .

    What I do know is my God is real and He lives and reigns and one day soon I shall be with Him . He calls me His friend . He knows my name .

    I don't think it is going to make a difference if I know all this stuff but then again there are some who do like to discuss these issues and I say ... good for them . However , there is also a polite and respectful way to do it rather than to debate. Sorry just my two cents.

    So I would say in conclusion that the two of you just agree to disagree and call it a night . Praise God .
  14. Neither am I a preterist nor am I ignorant. Who do you think you are? Certainly you don't think you have more intelligence than I, or DO you? Neither are you anywhere close as on a level with Paul or John the Revelator as being a spokesman for them, and the fact you place all their words off into a pie in the sky futuristic interpretation makes you a dangerous false prophet in my very well learned opinion and you will NOT be difficult to expose, and I will do it with great vigor if you once more self exalt your views as being "truth" bar all other views.
    However, the possibility of those encounters may very well be moot as you are condescending a third time to me and have no Love or patience in your delivery and I have warned you about that. I will take the next step in the rules of this forum concerning your posts as you are being very offensive and inflammatory writer who seems to love telling other people they are ignorant.
    If you don't square your attitude away first and foremost we will see how long your private parade lasts around here. Do you understand?

  15. Moderators Reminder to All Members

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    The topic of this thread has a history of becoming heated.

    While this HAS NOT YET HAPPENED, the Moderators remind all who wish to post of our Golden Rule:

    Rule 2.0 Let the Love of God and the Fellowship of the Spirit guide all you do and say.

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  16. Just some scriptures to ponder.

    Jesus accended into heaven so the Holy Spirit would come, which he did at Pentecost. It is not Jesus who dwells in us as Christians, but the Holy Spirit. Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, interceding on our behalf.

    Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

    Joh 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you.

    Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
    Act 1:6 Then, indeed, these coming together, they asked Him, saying, Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?
    Act 1:7 And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority.
    Act 1:8 But you shall receive power, the Holy Spirit coming upon you. And you shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
    Act 1:9 And saying these things, as they watched, He was taken up. And a cloud received Him out of their sight.

    Act 2:1 And in the fulfilling of the day of Pentecost, they were all with one accord in one place.
    Act 2:2 And suddenly a sound came out of the heaven as borne along by the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
    Act 2:3 And tongues as of fire appeared to them, being distributed; and it sat upon each of them.
    Act 2:4 And they were all filled of the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    Act 2:32 God raised up this Jesus, of which we all are witnesses.
    Act 2:33 Therefore being exalted to the right of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured out this which you now see and hear.

    Before Jesus returns the following must happen, which has not yet happened.

    Act 2:19 And I will give wonders in the heaven above, and miracles on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
    Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before that great and glorious Day of the Lord.
  17. First you didn't know what I was believing me to be a dispensationalist, and now you do not even know what you are. Some one who believe Matthew 24 has already been completely fulfilled and that futurism is false are known as preterist. Further more I didn't call you ignorant I told you you were either being intellectually dishonest or where ignorant of what the scripture was teaching. My guess is that you were being dishonest.
    Read Ezekiel 33 and you might get an understanding of who I think I am, in Christ of course.
    Not at all that is why I simply believe God and what He says in His word instead of making up wild complicated meanings for what His word plainly states.
    Nope but I believe what they taught to be true, which is more than I can say for you.
    According to the very words of Paul himself in 2nd Timothy it is you who is the dangerous false teacher here.
    2nd Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
    My love for God, His truth, and others that might come across your false rhetoric compels me to speak the truth even if it offends you.
    Anyone who reads this thread, and or any of my others threads or posts especially the mods can see that you are the aggressor here, so do as you feel necessary and see where it gets you.
  18. So now you are saying I'm dishonest?
    Because I say Matt 24 is not a bunch of "futuristic" non-sense but was fulfilled in AD 70?
    But you still put it off into the future? And you think Paul thought that too and you say I am being dishonest?
    I know exactly what a Preterist is and they believe Christ "came" in AD 70. But Christ "CAME" at Pentecost as the Resurrected Holy Spirit into His Church Body as a Blessing. He came in vengeance in AD 70.
    You are "wresting" scripture as a false "futuristic prophet" wolf yourself in saying otherwise, no matter how smart you are in your own eyes.
    "Futurism" is a wild convoluted unprovable unrelateable UN-ANYTHING that will rob the body of our very present Blessings of all things accomplished and fulfilled in Christ NOW.
    And don't throw out scriptures such as above that have nothing to do with anything but making you feel good by beating someone else over the head with them to puff out your own chest.
    You haven't a lick of love for truth nor a lick of Love for others that is obvious.
    Truth never offends me. YOU DO.
    If all you intend is to push your own religion of futurism and belittle others calling them ignorant and dishonest when they don't agree with you I will have this thread shut down.
    Did you see the warning?
    That was to you.

    This thread has been well discussed. Everyone has stated their views and no one is changing their minds.

    With that in mind, it is the opinion of the Moderators, nothing further is to be gained and the thread will be closed.

    If anyone wishes to add something to this thread that is of a differing viewpoint and has not already been covered, please let anyone on the Moderator Team know, and reopening of this thread will be considered.

    We thank all who participated.
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