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Fall of Communism in Europe 25 years ago

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Robine, Nov 10, 2014.

  1. If you are interested in history, you may know that some European countries are celebreating 25 anniversary of the fall of communism. This is short emotive video about the fall of Berlin Wall that was going through Germany dividing the East and West Germany.

    It happened one week before the Velvet Revolution in Czech Republic. We Czechs are going to celebrate on Monday. Although it is clear today that the fall of communism was necessary and unavoidable, it was a miracle then. Many Christians were praying for that for many years.
     
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  2. #2 boltardy, Nov 10, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
    Wow, the Berlin Wall was that long ago! I think most people from most backgrounds and beliefs (including myself) over here saw it as symbolic of a new dawning.

    I've heard of the Velvet Revolution but don't really know anything about it. It will sound odd and possibly rude to you but one effect the whole effect of the fall of communism had was I got confused with the names of countries, obviously including Czechoslovakia going. Much of the rest seems to be a bit of a mystery to me - I suppose we are too distant.

    I'd be very interested to hear from you what the changes have meant to you personally or as it seems you would have been very young at the time your family and the people you know who lived more through the communist era.
     
  3. That´s quite funny :D I am confused as well about the names of some European countries! It´s still changing. And if you try to get to know the right names, suddenly somebody comes and annex Crimea and tries to make new confusion...
    Yeah, I was 1 year old. Thanks to the revolution I can live in freedom. Many people just swear on politics and on many things that happened during these 25 years of freedom. But whatever happened, we are free to say our opinions loudly without fear, we can do what we want, travel, study, ...
    There are many many stories of how people were oppressed by the regime. My family lived in relative peace but the pressure was still there. My grandfather was forced to work as a labour in spite of his high education and qualification, just because of his "wrong opinions". It was dangerous for Christians to meet in public. Therefore e.g. Christians´wedding were kind of "Christians get-together" because weddings were allowed. It´s kind of unimaginable even for me and I like to ask my parents about that time.
    The sad fact is that 40 years of communist era still have strong influence on people´s mentality. It will take long time to repair it. Some people say that it will need another 2 generations.
     
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  4. Robine you have a most fascinating culture and history, and I am exceedingly glad that you and your family were able to escape the dreadful strongholds of Communism. Here in the U.S we are currently experiencing a strong rise of Communistic persuasions in our colleges and schools. For almost a hundred years Socialism has embedded its heels steadily into our socialised educational system, which has now provided a foundation for Communistic overtones to increase. I find many young people here are lured by it and are unable to formulate a perspective of wisdom to see its many dangers.

    However on a good note we are also witnessing an increase also with many of our young people regarding the principles of individual liberty, which gives me hope that my country will not suffer the possible horrors of Communism.

    Please pray for the young people in my country that they will embrace liberty instead of despotism. Also that we will vote out our Socialistic school systems and replace them with free-market alternatives.

    Your testimony and history is most inspiring
     
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  5. Thanks for your reaction. I wish that people learned from our sad history. I will pray for your people. Communist ideas are somewhat attractive but everybody can see what happened when they tried to realize it (and what’s still happening in North Korea).

    Communist party has never been prohibited in our country and communists always get enough votes to be part of parliament. Many people (especially old people) say that life was better at communist era. That’s insane. The idea “state should care for me” is encoded in our minds. Therefore any real change is very difficult. Our system is still very social (even our “right-wing” politics is social in fact) though we call it capitalism. Embitterment and skepticism are almost like our national characteristics.
    On the other hand, we live in peace in spite of hard times and close war (Ukraine is just around the corner). And I would say that many Czechs live in wealth.

    OT – I like your posts because you always use some interesting English words that are new for me.
     
  6. I fear that though the appearance of it looked like a good thing . It was not what it seemed .
    It is interesting that while the UK celebrated the START of ww1 a strange thing in itself . " better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof " Eccl e 7:8. Germany was celebrating its reunification.
    Germany signed two treaties . 'The Basic treaty ' Between east and West Germany in 1975. Which in effect was a treaty with itself .For it had always been assumed and planned for that one day there would be a unification.
    In it; it speaks of their borders being inviolate and their right to self determination both internal and external.
    Then in the mid 90's the now unified Germany signed the ' Final Settlement Treaty" between the WW2 allies and Germany that effectively signed off the greatest and costliest war the world has yet known .
    In that treaty it is stated that Germany must recognise her borders . and that it was for the peace of Europe that they do so .
    These two treaties show that Germany cannot be in a union with any other nation without violating those two treaties.
    For the EU is not only undermining ever bodies borders but progressively is curtailing every nation with in it their ability of self determination .Both internal and external. While I give no credence to the UN';s authority its own charta states it upholds every nation large or small borders and their right for self determination.
    Not only can Germany NOT be in a union legally it cannot be in the union by any other means ,Unless of course you wish her to violate a most solemn treaty that signed off another world war?
    The division of Germany then but delayed what she has always thought was her destiny that it is she not France (and before France Spain )who should rule and govern Europe and all should be subject to her head. Despite two world wars showing her or trying to dissuade her otherwise .
    Now we have the EU all turning their eyes to Germany to 'save' them . and demanding she over reach herself and her borders again and 'do soemthing' She like some blushing bride seems reluctant and so she should be if she wishes to retain her recent liberty. For she must not LOOK like she is pressing for it .But rather it must be seen to be the demand for others .
    Greece, Portugal ,Spain , Italy, France and Germany who have all just come out form under the jackboots of military dictatorships . Seem to have fallen from the pan into the fire . At best Europes 'democracies' are a green and tender plants with roots but a centermetre deep . At worse they are a deceit .
    For Winston Churchill once said "Democracy is the worst form of government that there is but every other form has been tried " and by implication does not work., Which is sobering when you think the new magic word is "democracy"!! democracy democracy!
    I would add my pennyworth to his statement as to why I think it is so .
    Democracy has a fatal flaw in it and a hidden snare to the unwary and it si this. If you can get a majority by any means ;fair or foul and it is increasingly foul and can get a good grip on the legislative process. Then you can delude yourself with the idea that the truth is what you say it is or make it and in the case of the UK can force through bills that have not been tried tested or proved to have any merit let alone true by any debates worthy of the name through Parliament by your majority and thus enable laws to be made to enforce your truth upon one and all .
    This applies of course to false religions whether from the east or west who all believe in one form or another that numbers count and if they can ensure they are the bigger population then the truth is what they say it is .
    The long history of Europe has been of different individuals and nations who have all tried to subject the whole of Europe under the one head by force of arms . Who thought the truth was what they made it .
    It has fallen to the UK and by the grace of God to not only oppose every single one of them, religious and political .But also by the grace of God has not only defended and preserved her liberties but also Europes as well and I dare say also the worlds on at least 4 major occasions .
    That then makes this Parliament doing the very thing that no other parliament in all her history pre 1945 has ever done and going in the opposite direction to all others also . Pray for the UK!
    For this Parliament has subjected herself and this country to another rising power in Europe that is but seeking the same Godless vain and wicked ambition as all the others before it but this time in a 'union' and by a form of peace
    A man once said "if you forget history you are doomed to repeat it " I would add to that ;if it does it never repeats itself in the same way but it is always worse than the time before.

    in Christ
    Gerald
     
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  7. The references I find have it:

    “Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."​
     
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  8. Thank you .For I have never seen the full quote before . It is also good to see that he acknowledged the "sin and woe" of this world.

    Though the UK is not a democracy. It is a constitutional Monarchy.
    There is a prevailing and thus reigning thought in Parliament on the one hand who think THEY are sovereign . and by the people that Parliament is subject to them. It is not .
    For authority never comes from below but from above and you cannot exercise authority unless you are subject to authority .
    Thus they who reign cannot be ruled by those they rule. Nor then can they who govern be governed by those they govern.
    In matters of GOVERNEMENT then the people are 'below' or subject to the government . Even as the government and parliament is subject to the Crown. For it is Parliament that governs and the Crown that rules and Parliament cannot govern unless they are submitted to the rule.
    I speak of course of principle .not present practice.
    What then of the people ? The Constitution of Great Britain is a tri-part one. Of Crown People and Parliament. Each in their part are vital for its working and each must be free to do its part .
    The elections do not choose the government .Though it is always implied by the present parties that it does because in the main they want to be free from the Monarchies rule and thus you will always hear from their mouths we are a democracy.
    The elections give each MP elected the authority and power to represent those who elected them in the debates presented before the house as to what should be made law . Thus in matters of election each and very MP including the PM are the servants of those that elected them.
    In matter s of Government the whole of Parliament in general and the executive arm of that house are the servants of the Crown . It is after all called "Her majesty's government"
    I speak of course of principles not present day practice .
    Why do we have an unelected monarch and house of lords?
    There are a number of reasons . One of which is that EVERY nation or tribe must needs a head. Whether a democracy like the USA , a republic like France . A dictatorship . political or religious . A tribe a chief.
    One body one head . You cannot have two heads of state or tribe or there will be civil war.
    Another reason is historical. If no other the English have found that we must needs a King or Monarch and all others are not to the UK satisfactory .
    Perhaps the primary reason is that it is a God given institution. in Principle and the Lord is king of kings and <Lord of Lords.
    But there is another more pertinent to these days more than before .
    That the truth is not democratic . For it is neither upheld ,undermined or established by how many people 'vote' for it .
    In that respect and in the UK, the truth must reign and sit on the throne and no other .

    But the truth is no tyrant either . Thus we have an elected house and a representative government . But no man is infallible .Though some foolishly claim it .
    Thus even though we might have over 400 MP's debating and deciding on a bill or issue . That decision passed by the majority of the elected house . Is then sifted by the unelected house and more than once by both . and if after all that trying testing and proving it is still passed then it is presented to the Crown as the will of the nation as to what laws they wish to be ruled and governed by . Who then graciously signs it and it becomes law.
    I speak of course of principle not present day practice .
    For the present Houses of parliament and in particular the House of Commons does but give lip service to the Crown ,the Constitution and the nation they say they represent .
    Which means that great storms are coming to the UK the like of which we have not seen fro 400 years or more . Indeed the likelihood of a great earthquake is also more likely than not . That will reflect the great contradictions in our national life to date .
    "IF my people will humble themselves and pray .............." May change that . But we are so far down the wrong road that it will not be so easy to get back on the right road and is likely to cost us dear.

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  9. I agree communism went badly wrong and I have very strong issues with what may have stemmed from "religion is the opium of people". and state atheism. My impression is that (pre revolution) Russia (and presumably what followed elsewhere) managed to create a more corrupt state than what they had before. I don't however see that as a reason to dismiss the social welfare side completely.

    For me, I see capitalism as the politics of greed, typically with those that have the most objecting the most to giving one of their shirts to the one who has none. Socialism on the other hand seems to me to go against human nature. (sort of) I've worked hard for my money, why should he see any of it? If Christian, one can even extend it to well if he prayed better to God, he too would be rich like me.

    Me, I'm under no illusions that we can create the perfect system, everything right or left we try will be flawed. Personally I do think a democracy is the best system we can come up with, ideally from my view point, one with proportional representation.

    My own vote, if cast, would be more likely to go to the party that I see as having some social conscience. At least that's the theory. The reality would more likely be I vote for who I see as the best out of a bad lot. You mention skepticism, sadly, I view most politicians as having vested interests and am doubtful we have any systems that are not in some ways corrupt.
     
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  10. Winston Churchill in the 1945 general election warned the UK nation "not to be short sighted" it was "in the end the socialists will have to resort to some form of Gestapo ......................." produce a police or totalitarian state seek to control every thing even down to what you should think.
    If you have or get a Gestapo you will have and get everything that goes with it .
    What is a Gestapo? It is a politically controlled force that uses corrupt and perverted law, the use of violence and the threat and use of death to enforce their truth upon one and all to ensure political conformity .
    In the end you will not have Police Constables . But Political Correctors. Both PC's but of a very different order.

    in Christ
    gerald
     
  11. So... one guards against extremism...

    Fasicm is generally placed as far right although Wikipedia for example has.


    Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy during World War I, combining more typically right-wing positions with elements of left-wing politics, in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and traditional conservatism. Although fascism is often placed on the far-right on the traditional left–right spectrum, a number of academics have said that the description is inadequate
     
  12. Today we live in a world where according to the left. The right is always wrong .right?
    and they know of course that the left is always right . right?
    Even as the right know the left is always wrong . right? and that the right is always right . right?
    But every one knows that to be too far left is wrong ,right?
    Even as it is known that to be too far right is always to be wrong, right?
    I wonder how far left you can go till you become too far right?
    and how far right you can go to be too far left and be wrong ,right?
    But of course the middle is the place that si right ? right?
    But what middle is that which is right|?
    How far left of right can you go to still be right , right?
    Or how far right of left can you go to not be right but right . right?
    If the centre is right not neither left ore right is that right?
    But the centre of what? which is right?
    Clearly to the left you cant be centre right ,right?
    Though they can be left of centre but right of left cant they?
    and still be right? Or is that left .For as you know the left are always right and to be left of centre is still right in their eyes .Even though clearly to some on the far left they are too far right of left to be right ,right?
    as too the right who are too far left of the right in their eyes who are much more right then they, right?

    What ever happened to the words : True or false , good or evil , right and wrong ?

    Do you know how lions sometimes hunt?
    You have a herd of animals content and at peace . A pride of hungry lions comes along and a couple visibly go to the left and the herd gets a bit nervous and moves to the right .
    Then you have a couple of lions visibly going to the right and the herd getting more nervous goes to the left.
    and as the herd gest funnelled more and more and manipulated from the left to the right . Instead of stopping and looking to see what si going on and face down the lions . Its suddenly every animal for itself and they all head to where they don't see the lions at all .
    But that is just where the lions are waiting that they did not see.
    The first to go are the young and the elderly.

    in Christ
    gerald
     
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  13. So you are right, right? I'm confused...
     
  14. And thank God for its fall. Sadly, Western culture has become very pro-Communism (whether blatantly or just in ideology). Communism has murdered more people than Nazism, has caused poverty and heartache, and destroyed so many families. My own family history was nearly crushed by Bolsheviks which is why they fled to America from Russia.

    But as someone once said, the reason why Communism is not looked at the same way Nazism is is because the Nazis lost and the Communists didn't. And those who win can re-write the history books.
     
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  15. Rofl GBzone. I have always known when everyone else is wrong - it takes me more time and effort to realize when I am wrong. But then....I am always right (grinning to beat the band).
     
  16. Yes indeed, I used to have communist ideals when I was young...

    Until I read somewhere, and repeated by one of my ethics teacher:

    "When you are young and you do not become a communist, you have no heart...

    when you grow older, and you are still a communist, you are a fool"

    : )
     
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  17. The use of the term left and right is not of God . It first came up I believe by the French during the revolution.
    If you follow the left and right argument I gave. Though it is not easy I admit. You will see or understand how foolish it all is and why we have gone so far off the rails ; For every one is doing right in their own eyes .
    Right?

    In Christ
    gerald
     
  18. So what is your proposed solution?
     
  19. I don´t think that any political system in the hands of fallen people is the best. But I hope that we will agree that communist totalitarian regime is much worse than contemporary democracy with all its problems.

    @aha IMO communist ideas themselves are not so bad. We can see some more or less succesful cases in Israel´s kibbutz (just before the modern state of Israel was founded).
     
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  20. When it is described as everyone puts into the pot to make sure no one is left without, it sounds nice--charitable even. But even if we put aside the unintended consequences of poverty, illness, and whatnot, the idea of brute force being used to ensure others are contributing is evil in itself.

    But one of the biggest reasons why Communism is evil is because it calls for a withdraw on religion. Atheism isn't Communism, but Communism is an Atheist movement.
     
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