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Do you believe in the 4 Christian baptisms?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by John Zain, Jun 26, 2011.

  1. Baptism into the church (salvation) --- the Holy Spirit is the baptiser
    This does NOT refer to a phony salvation, which has always been quite prevalent,
    i.e. merely an intellectual belief or conversion of one’s thinking.
    But this refers to being “born again (from above)” with the Holy Spirit entering the person.
    “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church)
    … and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)
    The Holy Spirit takes up residence INSIDE the believer … John 14:16-23; Romans 8:11;
    1 Corinthians 3:16; Galatians 4:6; 1 Timothy 1:14; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:12-16.

    Baptism in water (symbolic demonstration of faith) --- the pastor is the baptiser
    Full-immersion baptism in water is symbolic, being the outward expression of inward faith.
    Any other type of water baptism is unscriptural and just dreamed up by man.
    “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were
    baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,
    that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
    even so we also should walk in newness of life.” (Romans 6:3-4)
    ”… buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through
    faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)
    Jesus died to self, went down under the earth, was resurrected with a new incorruptible body.
    We are to die to self, go down under the water, come up a new man ready to live a new life.
    Paul said, “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17).
    Scripture says we are justified by faith alone, not by works (Romans 4:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-9).

    Baptism with the Holy Spirit (power for ministry) --- Jesus is the baptiser
    John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit
    … Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33.
    The baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after being born again (or at the same time).
    7 verses say that for this baptism the Holy Spirit comes UPON the believer.
    “… the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered
    the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water,
    but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ ” (Acts 11:15-16)
    14 Scripture passages directly LINK the following gifts and events with this baptism:
    the promise, the gift, upon, laying on of hands, filled with the Holy Spirit,
    received the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, power, boldness, miracles.
    I have a chart showing how they are obviously linked together in the 14 Scriptures.

    Baptism with fire (extreme suffering for the gospel’s sake) --- Jesus is the baptiser
    John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus is the One who baptizes with fire.
    “He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16)
    Jesus asks His 12 disciples if they are able and willing to be martyrs also …
    “Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the
    baptism that I am baptized with? … You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized
    with the baptism that I am baptized with …” (Matthew 20:22-23, Mark 10:38-39)

    All of the baptisms are glorious blessings, even the baptism with fire:
    “Blessed are those who are persected for rightousness sake” (Matthew 5:10).
  2. First off, 2 is the symbolism associated with 1.
    Most would assume that 3 occurs at the same time.
    4 is for those who ask for it, few and blessed that they are.
  3. Here's some symbolism for you. Enjoy ...

    The Scripture PASSAGES below explain what the Holy Spirit baptism is all about.
    And the important DETAILS in each passage are shown in the chart below.
    Please notice how these details are so inter-connected in the chart.

    1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
    2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
    3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
    4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
    5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
    6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
    7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6

    ------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
    the Promise (HS) ---Y-Y---Y-------------------------
    baptized with HS -----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
    the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
    upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
    laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
    filled with HS ---------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
    received HS ----------------------Y-------Y---------
    speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
    power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
    boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
    miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---
  4. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism (not water). Holy Spirit baptism is received at the precise moment of salvation. If the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense.

    The presentation by John Zain of scripture passages is an outstanding example of the theology of Benny Hinn, Kenneth & Gloria Copeland, Mike Murdock, and about 20 others on "Christian" TV today. The "name it and claim it," "word-faith," and televised "healings" are supreme examples of misunderstood and misapplied doctrine. The idea that those abilities granted to the 12 plus the 70 and in a far lesser case to the Apostle Paul are available to us today is heresy. These spokespersons for THEIR gospel don't have a clue about rightly dividing scripture, much to the detriment of humankind.
  5. Oky-Doky Dok,

    One of the simpler ways to prove my point is ...

    Please notice that when one is baptised into the church (the born again experience),
    the Holy Spirit comes INSIDE the believer; you can check all the references (esp. Paul).

    Also please notice that when one is baptised with the Holy Spirit,
    the Holy Spirit comes UPON the believer; you can check all the references (red in the chart).

    Red is the color of Santa's coat.
    If you can't read the chart, I can recommend some good chart schools.
  6. OK, John Zain. I checked them. You are mixing apples and oranges, failing to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

    We are Holy Spirit baptized at the precise moment we receive Jesus as Savior. That happens upon our confession of faith. That is our born-again experience: the instantaneous infilling of the Holy Spirit. And He is the one who provided the opportunity for us to confess in the first place! Yea! The Holy Spirit takes up instantaneous residence in those who are authentically born again, and He will never leave us or forsake us. There is no requirement for water baptism. If you want to do that, go right ahead. There is no 2nd and subsequent infilling of the Holy Spirit. He is already there in those who are authentically born again. There is no "speaking in tongues" (foreign languages) today. They are not instantly granted to the authentic Believer for use then, nor for latet. The power and boldness belong to Him, not us. God can perform miracles anytime He wants to. We can't.

    Maybe that sums up my POV, which is, in fact, the Biblical POV.
  7. Thanks, but I don't mix them because I prefer oranges.
    It doesn't do you (or anyone else) any good to repeat
    the same old erroneous doctrine over and over again.
    But, it does do harm.
    Major likes this.
  8. Baptism in water is a sign of obedience to Christ - a public demonstration of our faith. Baptism by the Holy Spirit is a work of the Holy Spirit - not man, so why concern ourselves as to how many possible types of baptisms there are.

    If you believe in Jesus - get water baptised, simply because it is an act of obedience to what Jesus instructed. If one doesnt want to, then they should ask themselves if they disobey Jesus from the beginning, just how certain is their faith (I still dont know why people are scared to get baptised and preach against it when Jesus clearly instructed us to do so).

    Once we are saved we recieve the baptism of the Holy Spirit in whatever form in HIS time and for HIS purpose to empower us to ministry.

    God bless
    Major likes this.
  9. Have you understood the chart in Post #6?

    Your last sentence has 2 errors:
    1) Most people do not receive this baptism at the time of salvation.
    Proof: they do not experience the manifestations in the chart.
    2) We are to pursue the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor 12), but they are only
    available (in any major degree) to those baptised with the Holy Spirit.
    Half of them are obviously not available to others at all.

    Of course, I can't really prove much of this to you ... I can just point you to the verses.
  10. The problem, John, is your understanding of the scriptures that you point folks to. Eisegesis leads to misinterpretations that get passed on to others. I suggest exegesis. :)
  11. Actually John, I am not incorrect, I just disagree with your understanding of your "chart".

    Problem is your chart is lopsided. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are meant for service to others and they come completely at the Holy Spirit's will. What your chart is so sadly missing is the "fruits of the Spirit" - love, kindness, joy, peace, self control etc.

    Once a person is saved the Holy Spirit immediately start in regenerating them into the image of Christ so they can bring glory to God.

    Holy Spirit baptism is much more than just manifestation of powerful gifts. Being baptised with fire can also be interpreted as Gods judgement on unbelievers.

    From the verses below it is apparent that John was speaking of fire in the context of judgement. Both the verses before and after vs. 11 contexualize fire are judgement. Jesus will baptise believers in the Holy Spirit and unblievers with fire. The key word in both Lukes account and Mathews is the word "and" meaning he could have been referring to more than one people's group. Fire in the Gospels is almost exclusively used in the context of judgment on unbelievers. Be very careful when you hear preachers talking about been baptised with fire - many false teachers have gone out talking about the fire of the Spirit. Fire is a term used in reference to judgment.


    And now also, the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.

    I indeed baptize you with water to repentance. But He who comes after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire;
    whose fan is in His hand, and He will cleanse His floor and gather His wheat into the storehouse; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
  12. Oh, golly gee, may we make a chart on the fruits of the Spirit too?
    Okay, Kev, go for it 'cause we just can't wait.
    And are you sayin' that the fruits are also in these 14 "baptism" verses?
    I'd better check and see.

    By the way, is my chart no good 'cause you don't believe the verses?
    Or, is my chart no good 'cause you don't understand the connections?
  13. Actually, I would like to see more of the fruit of the Spirit in this thread. I'm not looking for a chart though, I would like to see them displayed by the participants, particularly love, peace, kindness, gentleness, and self-control.

    This thread reminds me of my psychology classes in college. Jung had his X-number of stages of adolescence, Freud had his Y-number of stages, and we studied some others that had their A, B, and C-numbers. They were looking at the same phenomena, but each characterized them differently. I'm wondering if that isn't part of what is fueling some of disagreement on this particular subject.
    Dok likes this.
  14. The more of this I read, the more I feel that we're being set up to abandon our faith to join a cult, become JW, Mormons, or something else that ends with spiked Kool-Aid, Aliens, or who knows what else. No matter how I look at it, I don't get a good feeling. While you may be trying to teach something, you seriously come across as though you are trying to trick people. Perhaps you have good points, but they are being lost in the suspicion you are creating. I would suggest that you consider that in your future responses.

    Or you can ignore me. Lost of people seem to do that anyway, but I've offered my 2 cents.
    Dok and forgivenWretch say Amen and like this.
  15. Your chart is just that "your chart" - I dont study charts I study the bible IN CONTEXT. Taking verses and placing them in isolation is eisogesis - making them what you want them to be.

    In regards to understanding the baptism of the Holy Spirit one needs to study the subject within the whole context of scripture. By placing them in a chart you may or may not get the interpretation right - as I have shown you with the baptism of fire interpretation. Yes some people are called to die for Christ as where most of the apostles - but that was not a baptism of fire (they where not judged by God) instead they displayed long suffering and Love for Christ - all fruits of the work of the Holy Spirit within them.

    I am not saying your chart is not completely accurate but by placing scriptures in isolation and linking can lead to misinterpretation.

    Anyway lets not argue over how many possible baptisms there are - lets focus on serving the Lord in humility and obedience and then we will see the powerful work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
  16. exegesis: objectivism. To explain what the Scripture says. Greek, ‘to guide out of." "ex" means "from" or "out of"

    eisogesis: subjectivism. Reading into text something that isn’t there at all. Greek. Same root as exegesis with different prefix. "eis" means "into."

    One notes that in the KJV there is a reference to "the eye of the needle." See Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25 and Luke 18:25. This has variously been interpreted as simply a needle, a camel, or a rope, depending upon your commentary. How do we exegete that? Regardless of one's interpretation, the point is made: it is impossible for the Jews unless they acknowledge Jesus as Messiah! Remember that Jesus was working with National Israel, not each individual, in acceptance of Him.

    THIS is where denominations, atheists, cultists, get their wings. It behooves us to clearly yield to the Holy Spirit as "we" exegete.

    I am committed to a literal-historical interpretation of scripture. One asks WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, HOW (never WHY) after prayerful consideration of the passage in context, always yielding to the Holy Spirit. I just have to get out of the way.

    In "getting out of the way" I frequently rearrange my posts after reading them. I often move closing paragraphs to the top, or somewhere in the middle. My thought processes lead me in one direction, but "something" tells me to rearrange in order to add clarity to my posts.

    (p.s. I used Trebuchet MS font 4 for this post. It actually looks too small on my screen, but I've had problems with that in other forums .... folks on the other end receive oversized lettering. Let me know, please).
  17. I remember a certain protestant minister who was a proponent of the "prosperity gospel", he claimed that one of the gates of Jerusalem was called the "eye of the needle" in ancient times, therefore, according to his interpretation, a camel could easily pass through this particular "eye of a needle" and therefore the rich had no fear of missing out on heaven.
  18. Okay, I can accept this. Could you be more specific, please?
    P.S. The cults you mention will ever be involved in the baptism with the Holy Spirit
    because they're non-Christian ... they don't believe a 2-Person Godhead, let alone a 3.
    Jesus Christ came in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3).
  19. Glomung, I started to say that I laughed all the way to the pulpit with your Kenneth Copeland-style remark. Yes, I love it, I think your post is spot on, but then I started feeling sad for the people who buy into that nonsense. We need a world day of prayer for those folks.
  20. We need also to start teaching people how to study the bible for themselves. It is God's revealed will for our lives so we have a responsibility to know how to study it.
    Often I hear people who walk away from Christianity because of the 'Word of Faith" movement because it doesnt work. They turn the bible into a quassi magical spell book, citing scriptures into the air expecting everything to submit to their will just because of the power of scripture. When their lives remain unchanged they leave Christianity thinking it is useless.

    My heart cries out for these people. Instead of expecting everything to submit to their will they need to be taught to submit to God's will and let Him do the work in their lives.

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