“Once for All”

[Secured]

My belief at present concerning the eschatology of Israel is the same as the Plymouth Brethren, which were circa 1700's-1800's; these spiritual growth authors are also my source of learning, and have been sharing their beliefs on the internet for the last 13 years.

It's their teaching that those among Israeli descent who do not believe in Christ, but do believe in God will be restored in fellowship with Him during the millennium. There are many doctrines about Israel's last days that are not directly clear in Scripture, but yet seem show enough Scripture to support certain teachings (in my opinion).

One is that the Israelites who believe in God (Jn 14:1) but not in Christ will be restored when they see Christ during the millennium. But they cannot be part of the Body of Christ because it will be too late. To be Christian one must believe in Christ before they see Him during the millennial kingdom. Thus Israel will continue as a "people of God," inheriting the new earth; and Christians inheriting the new heaven with them ruling with Christ in the millennial kingdom, and on through eternity.

I realize there are Scripture passages that seem to refute these teachings, but I have yet to be convinced otherwise. Thus, the remnant of Israel in Zeph 3:13, for example, are the Jews who believe in God but not in the Lord Jesus. I think too many mistakenly relate Israel as being the Christians, but there is always too much ethnic language to relate Christians to be the new Israel.

Do you relate Jacob, whose name God has changed to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel, to be the new Israel (God's adopted children)? Rom 11:26. Rom 9:6-11.

 

[bobinfaith]

Thanks for replying to my post. I think that it is very important that we understand the importance of the doctrine that we believe (Gal 1:8) (Isaiah 28:9). Those that Christ died for include only those that his Father gave him (John 6:37) and those will not be judged at the last judgement day, but will be told "Come, ye blesses of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world", (Matt 25:32-34) They will, however, be judged for their disobedience as they sojourn here on earth, and can lose their fellowship with God, (not their eternal deliverance) when they commit a sin, until they repent and he delivers (saves) them from the results of the sin back into his fellowship. Your above statement hints of eternal deliverance by mankind's good works.

I am 89 years old and welcome your reproofs of my comments Respectfully, I believe the scriptures teach that God gave a larger portion of mankind to Jesus, that he would die on the cross to redeem them from their sins and secure an inheritance in heaven for every one of them ( John 6:37 ) Although their sins are forgiven, they still do, at times, commit sin, which separates (death=separation) them from their fellowship with God, until they repent, but it does not separate them from their eternal inheritance.
.

Hello Secured;

I tell you the truth. From reading your posts in the threads, “Once for All” and Faith Is A Constant I can see by your faith walk you have been around the block. I praise God for your long life, sir. My Dad is behind you and will be 88 next July.

From reading your posts one may feel you're going off the verb of the topic. But I feel you are pointing to a connection with your comments and questions. Keep writing.

May I ask, what has been your personal witness of the Great Commission and evangelism in your years as a Christian? This is not a trick question, or a gotcha, but a sincere desire to know and fellowship with you more.

I'll be 67 next month and I still spend time reaching others for Christ in and out of my community. Last June of 2022 my wife and I were called to a struggling Church that is slowly rebuilding. In 2023 for the first time we have been reading the Bible every evening together which we never did before. We always read it separately.

But at the end of the day, I confess I'm still growing for Christ, but with a desire more for Him each day.

God bless you, Secured, your family and Merry Christmas.

Bob

 

[Secured]

May I ask, what has been your personal witness of the Great Commission and evangelism in your years as a Christian? This is not a trick question, or a gotcha, but a sincere desire to know and fellowship with you more

Bob, Thanks for your interest in conversing with me. Every time that I would try to make sense of reading the bible, I would notice that there seemed to be some contradicting scriptures. I knew that if I would ever understand the doctrine that Jesus taught, the scriptures would have to harmonize.

At 50 years old I thought, in my mind, that I was smart enough to figure it out, if I purchased a strong's concordance, and studied hard enough.

I put a lot of time into it, and attended many religious denominations taking notes of the sermons, and checking them against the scriptures in the bible until I was 62 years old admitting to God that I just was not smart enough.

Sometime after that, I was talking to a friend about the scriptures, and the holy Spirit started revealing to me some understanding of the scriptures that I had labored so long to understand, also making me understand that if He had revealed these truths to me earlier, with the state of mind that I was in, I would have taken credit for myself, instead of giving God credit.

I believe the scriptures to teach that God adds to the church, daily, such as should be saved (Acts 2:41-47) by the conviction of the Holy Spirit within them.

Saved, according to Strong's concordance, means "delivered". People who are added to the church have already been promised their deliverance (salvation) into heaven (John 6:37).

 

[bobinfaith]

Bob, Thanks for your interest in conversing with me. Every time that I would try to make sense of reading the bible, I would notice that there seemed to be some contradicting scriptures. I knew that if I would ever understand the doctrine that Jesus taught, the scriptures would have to harmonize. At 50 years old I thought, in my mind, that I was smart enough to figure it out, if I purchased a strong's concordance, and studied hard enough. I put a lot of time into it, and attended many religious denominations taking notes of the sermons, and checking them against the scriptures in the bible until I was 62 years old admitting to God that I just was not smart enough.

Sometime after that, I was talking to a friend about the scriptures, and the holy Spirit started revealing to me some understanding of the scriptures that I had labored so long to understand, also making me understand that if He had revealed these truths to me earlier, with the state of mind that I was in, I would have taken credit for myself, instead of giving God credit. I believe the scriptures to teach that God adds to the church, daily, such as should be saved (Acts 2:41-47) by the conviction of the Holy Spirit within them. Saved, according to Strong's concordance, means "delivered". People who are added to the church have already been promised their deliverance (salvation) into heaven (John 6:37).

Hello Secured;

You wrote, the Scriptures would have to harmonize. I agree. The concordance and cross - referencing are good disciplines that can help harmonize the Scriptures.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[netchaplain]

How would you explain Heb 11:12-16?

Not sure what you mean, explain what? Thanks.

 

[netchaplain]

Do you relate Jacob, whose name God has changed to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel, to be the new Israel (God's adopted children)? Rom 11:26. Rom 9:6-11.

No new Israel, just the first and only name of Israel. This will involve his people being the "people of God"; and most Jews will not become Christians, but continue as a people of God, via their New Covenant (Jer 31:31-33; Eze 36:26, 27).

 

[Secured]

Not sure what you mean, explain what? Thanks.

This was a question in response to your belief that the straight gate were the only persons that will go to heaven.

The Hebrew verses, to me, support the fact that there will be such a great number going to heaven that will be too many to count.

 

[Secured]

No new Israel, just the first and only name of Israel. This will involve his people being the "people of God"; and most Jews will not become Christians, but continue as a people of God, via their New Covenant (Jer 31:31-33; Eze 36:26, 27).

I agree with you that the Jer scriptures and the Ezk scriptures are referencing Jacob as Israel which includes all of God's elect people. Mos of whom God has blinded to see and understand the Gospel of Christ, even unto this day, because they turned away from him, and began to worship idols.(Deut 29), These being the ones who have their inheritance of Heaven, but are disobedient, and are the ones who go into the wide gate in Matt 7.

I think where you and I may disagree, I believe that the remnant of Israel, mentioned in Zeph 3:12-13 are the remnant that the Holy Spirit has revealed the truths contained in Christ's doctrine, and are the ones that find the straight gate, the visible church (Christ's kingdom), that leads to a peaceful and abundant life as they sojourn here on earth.

Both, those who go in the wide gate and those who find the straight gate, have their inheritance in Heaven.

I believe that both gates are the bride of Christ, The wide gate being the invisible church, and the straight gate being the visible church, (Ezk 10, especially verse 10. The outer, bigger wheel, being the invisible church and the small wheel in the midst being the visible church), who's duty it is to teach the gospel to the wide gate, who are "the lost sheep" of the house of Israel (Jacob).

To my understanding of the scriptures is that they teach that the visible church is the church that Christ set up when he was with the apostles and told Peter that He (Jesus) was the rock. the chief corner stone off The visible church is described in the scriptures as "the little flock", "the few", "the remnant", and some more that reflects a small amount, that I can't bring to mind just yet.

I appreciate your feedback, may the Holy Spirit give you revelation.

 

[bobinfaith]

Hello Secured;

How would you explain Heb 11:12-16?

Not sure what you mean, explain what? Thanks.

This was a question in response to your belief that the straight gate were the only persons that will go to heaven. The Hebrew verses, to me, support the fact that there will be such a great number going to heaven that will be too many to count.

Hello Secured;

Your question regarding Hebrews 11:12-16 and the straight gate which refers to the wide gate in Matthew 7:13-14 have two different teachings.

Hebrews 11:12-16, 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. - ESV

Matthew 7:13-14, 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. - KJV

In Hebrews the author is revealing God's promises to Abraham and Sarah who didn't receive the promises in their lifetime, but remained in faith during life and death. The promise of God and Abraham's/Sarah's faith included the multitudes of millions who will be descendents. The same goes for us who believe in God whether near, far or in another land, we can receive the same promise from God while living or dying in faith.

In Matthew Jesus was teaching our choice between the straight, or strait (equates to the wide gate,) or the narrow gate. The straight or wide gate is easy to enter which can lead to destruction. Whereas the narrow gate will include difficulties, trials but leads to eternal life.

I could manipulate the verses to reconcile but I find both passages have a different message.

God bless you, Secured, and Happy New Year.

 

[Secured]

Hello Secured;

Your question regarding Hebrews 11:12-16 and the straight gate which refers to the wide gate in Matthew 7:13-14 have two different teachings.

Hebrews 11:12-16, 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. - ESV

Matthew 7:13-14, 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. - KJV

In Hebrews the author is revealing God's promises to Abraham and Sarah who didn't receive the promises in their lifetime, but remained in faith during life and death. The promise of God and Abraham's/Sarah's faith included the multitudes of millions who will be descendents. The same goes for us who believe in God whether near, far or in another land, we can receive the same promise from God while living or dying in faith.

In Matthew Jesus was teaching our choice between the straight, or strait (equates to the wide gate,) or the narrow gate. The straight or wide gate is easy to enter which can lead to destruction. Whereas the narrow gate will include difficulties, trials but leads to eternal life.

I could manipulate the verses to reconcile but I find both passages have a different message.

God bless you, Secured, and Happy New Year.

I am a little concerned as to why you conclude that there will only be a few that will inherit eternal life, seeing that there were an innumerable amount of God's people, who were convinced of the promise of their eternal inheritance of heaven.

Does not the scriptures teach that the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, must be born of the Spirit (John 3:6) (Eph 2:1) before he can believe in the things of the Spirit? If God quickened (gave spiritual life) to a person that is still spiritually dead, would his spiritual birth be his choice, or God's choice?

My concern is endeavoring to harmonizing the scriptures without contradictions, which dominated my life until I was 62 years old.

I try to keep my mind open to better understand the doctrine that Jesus taught, realizing that there are very many false doctrines that are being taught in this day and time.

I do appreciate your comments and may God bless you in your studies of the scriptures.

 

[2404]

Thanks for replying to my post. I think that it is very important that we understand the importance of the doctrine that we believe (Gal 1:8) (Isaiah 28:9).

Those that Christ died for include only those that his Father gave him (John 6:37) and those will not be judged at the last judgement day, but will be told "Come, ye blesses of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world", (Matt 25:32-34) They will, however, be judged for their disobedience as they sojourn here on earth, and can lose their fellowship with God, (not their eternal deliverance) when they commit a sin, until they repent and he delivers (saves) them from the results of the sin back into his fellowship.

Your above statement hints of eternal deliverance by mankind's good works.

I am 89 years old and welcome your reproofs of my comments


Respectfully, I believe the scriptures teach that God gave a larger portion of mankind to Jesus, that he would die on the cross to redeem them from their sins and secure an inheritance in heaven for every one of them ( John 6:37 )


Although their sins are forgiven, they still do, at times, commit sin, which separates (death=separation) them from their fellowship with God, until they repent, but it does not separate them from their eternal inheritance.
.

89 years that is impressive, at what age did you turn your life over to Christ?
I wouldn't be looking to reprove you on your comment, I would be looking for common ground in scripture so we can both move forward.
One thing I would like to question you on is when you said that God gave a larger portion of humanity to Christ. To me scripture seems to suggest that God always works in a minority. God's glory is better magnified by the greater the contrast. God raises up someone or something which stands in stark contrast to the norm and then makes something glorious with it. Statements like narrow is the gate and few... is a good example.
Trust you are doing well and rejoicing in the Lord.

 

[netchaplain]

This was a question in response to your belief that the straight gate were the only persons that will go to heaven.

The Hebrew verses, to me, support the fact that there will be such a great number going to heaven that will be too many to count.

Rev 7:9; this is comparatively speaking. If one compares the number of those perishing to the numbers saved, the saved will be few (Mat 7:13, 13).

 

[Secured]

If a person is a real believer they are in Christ and there is an atonement for the short falls in a person's walk.
An unbeliever is on their own and we know the penalty for sin is death. The believer does not really die and so sin is not imputed to them so in other words they are not guilty of sin - or - do not sin.
Does that satisfy?

I had an email from you concerning why I believe that there will be a greater number of people that have an eternal inheritance than those that will go to hell.

Most people do not understand the interpretation of the two gates depicted in Mathew 7 as I do.

I believe the scriptures to teach that God's born again children (disobedient spiritual Israel) go in the wide gate. The wide gate are God's children who have been blinded, by God, to hear and understand the doctrine of Christ because they turned away from him to worship idols. (Deut 29:4). The destruction that it leads them to is believing and preaching false doctrines which are so prevalent in this day and time. There is only one true doctrine that Jesus taught.

Those that find the strait gate is the remnant of spiritual Israel (Zeph 3:12), of whom the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught.

Both of these gates is the sum total of spiritual Israel that have an inheritance of heaven, as many as the sand in the seashore and the stars in heaven which is more than can be numbered (Heb 11:12-16).




As you have mentioned, yes, there is a conditional salvation (deliverance) that is experienced here on earth by those that have the promise of an eternal inheritance. Every time that the born again person commits a sin he separates (dies) from his fellowship with God until he repents of that sin and God delivers (saves) him from suffering the results of the sin, and brings him back into fellowship with him.

May the Lord bless you with the revelation of the Holy Spirit in your study.

 

[JPPT1974]

Yeah as really it is about Jesus Christ and in the repenting and accepting Him and how you need to grow in Him through church, prayer, and reading the Word of God is only increasing your study and your reliance on Him as Savior and Lord.

 

[netchaplain]

I agree with you that the Jer scriptures and the Ezk scriptures are referencing Jacob as Israel which includes all of God's elect people. Mos of whom God has blinded to see and understand the Gospel of Christ, even unto this day, because they turned away from him, and began to worship idols.(Deut 29), These being the ones who have their inheritance of Heaven, but are disobedient, and are the ones who go into the wide gate in Matt 7.

It's ok that we differ in our understanding on this issue. God bless!

 

[2404]

I had an email from you concerning why I believe that there will be a greater number of people that have an eternal inheritance than those that will go to hell.

Most people do not understand the interpretation of the two gates depicted in Mathew 7 as I do.

I believe the scriptures to teach that God's born again children (disobedient spiritual Israel) go in the wide gate. The wide gate are God's children who have been blinded, by God, to hear and understand the doctrine of Christ because they turned away from him to worship idols. (Deut 29:4). The destruction that it leads them to is believing and preaching false doctrines which are so prevalent in this day and time. There is only one true doctrine that Jesus taught.

Those that find the strait gate is the remnant of spiritual Israel (Zeph 3:12), of whom the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught.

Both of these gates is the sum total of spiritual Israel that have an inheritance of heaven, as many as the sand in the seashore and the stars in heaven which is more than can be numbered (Heb 11:12-16).




As you have mentioned, yes, there is a conditional salvation (deliverance) that is experienced here on earth by those that have the promise of an eternal inheritance. Every time that the born again person commits a sin he separates (dies) from his fellowship with God until he repents of that sin and God delivers (saves) him from suffering the results of the sin, and brings him back into fellowship with him.

May the Lord bless you with the revelation of the Holy Spirit in your study.

Well, you didn't recieve an email from me.
I may agree with you on a number of points but not those as discussed.

 

[bobinfaith]

Yeah as really it is about Jesus Christ and in the repenting and accepting Him and how you need to grow in Him through church, prayer, and reading the Word of God is only increasing your study and your reliance on Him as Savior and Lord.

Hello JPPT1974;

Your post is short and sweet. Well said, and I agree wholeheartedly.

God bless you, your entire family and Happy New Year.