I SAY God bless the USA
eu is very socialist
POLITICS HAS REPLACED THE CHURCH!
- Thread starter Major
- Start date
Good point.
The Roman Catholic philosopher, Michael Novak once stated........
"This is because America itself is “almost a religion,” particularly for immigrants who come to their new identity with the zeal of the converted."
In other words.........those who founded this country came as Christians and infused that as the religion of the land.
In the past 100 years it is has become more important to be an AMERICAN than a Christian!
We know that due to the dramatic decline of church attendance. In the last 100 years church attendance has fallen by 75% and there is no bottom in sight.
Some will say that the Reasons behind church attendance decline are varied and multi-layered, but a few main culprits include shifting cultural values, busier schedules, and scandal-plagued institutions.
A survey of more than 15,000 religious congregations across the United States by Faith Communities Today (FACT), fielded just before the pandemic lockdown, was recently released. It found a median decline in attendance of 7% between 2015 and 2020.
It gets worse.
It also found that half of the country’s estimated 350,000 religious congregations had 65 or fewer people in attendance on any given weekend. In 2000, when FACT first began surveying data, the median attendance level was 137. That’s a drop of more than half in just two decades.
The church is in decline because we are turned inward instead of outward. Our hearts are not breaking for what breaks the heart of God, which is people facing a Christ-less eternity. And sadly, only a simple “invite” is all that is often needed: “Come and see, come and hear, come and explore.”
Think about what Penn Jillette, of the famed Penn and Teller magic/comedy duo, once said:......
“I [am] an atheist.... I don’t respect people who don’t witness.... If you believe that there’s a heaven and hell and that people could be going to hell... How much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize?”
Hmmmm!
Good discussion points!
I made a thread about my upbringing in another sub-forum here.
I'm an American born in 1984, on the older end of the "Millennial" generation. My mother (who passed in 2018) was on the younger end of the "Silent Generation." My father (still around) is a core "Baby Boomer."
I was raised to believe Jesus is the Only Way. This is correct! But I was also raised to believe witness/proselytizing isn't important. My dad taught an odd heresy that people can be saved after they die.
This raises questions, how much should we witness? What is effective witness? If we turn people away, is that necessarily indicative of being a bad witness?
In 1 Peter 3, we're told that wives win over unbelieving husbands by deeds, not words. I thus don't try to argue my unbelieving husband into faith. He does find it interesting to hear about what I believe, and why. But we try to avoid theological arguments.
As for my witness to others in my generation...that actually tends to be MORE hostile. "Millennial women," especially the younger ones born in the 1990s, often view all Christianity as patriarchal, capitalistic, and nationalistic. They don't think Christian women are worthy of respect.
I can tell them, my father was rather easygoing (and he was/is; he's not the domineering sort, and he's rather spontaneously emotional for a man his age as well, and likes lots of "rhythmic"/emotive music, not typical for White conservatives, apparently!). I wasn't raised in patriarchy, but I do believe (and my family believes) that men should be church leaders because of the order of creation (as Paul laid out in Scripture).
But they hate this. They think that's every bit as "patriarchal" as those who don't allow women to work, vote, etc. (Even though my dad was fine with all of those things, and I have worked and voted.)
As for capitalism and socialism, I can tell them that most Western societies have free markets, including Sweden, and that this isn't really the same thing as communism. I can tell them that I'm not necessarily opposed to those kinds of economies. I can also explain to them that capitalism and socialism are man-made economic systems formed by Adam Smith and Karl Marx in the 1700s and 1800s, and that our economic preferences really aren't that indicative of faith, per se -- it's just something Americans like to argue about (I also point out to them that 5% of China is Christian while being socialist, while only 2% of Japan is while being capitalist). But as far as they're concerned, Christianity is "greedy capitalism."
As far as nationalism, I explain to them that Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world, and that the New Testament writers like Paul, Peter, etc. never really described nationalism in the Scriptures. Christians do hope that nations will follow more of what is outlined in Scripture, but that such things aren't a guarantee, and that Christians should be willing to suffer persecution, even in nations that don't follow Christianity. So in other words, Christians must place their faith first in Christ, regardless if the nation they live in follows a form of politics conducive to Christian society, or not. But they don't like this, they just insist all Christians are really nationalists who want to force everyone to follow a "Christian" version of Sharia law (all while often defending Muslims as 'oppressed' minorities, mind you).
Finally, lots of younger people get this idea that Christians are older American white men. Yet many Black Americans are Christian. Yes, they do vote Democrat 90-95% of the time, but Black Americans tend to oppose LGBT legislation. This is also true of many Africans. I've never once met anyone, whether Christian or non, who can explain this phenomenon to me. For some reason, African descended people are much better about opposing LGBT than white Europeans are, regardless if they live in the US or not.
So, in essence, today's young Americans think --
Christians are white capitalist Baby Boomer American males who want to oppress minorities, women, LGBT!
But I read the Bible and see that Christians come from every nation, are both men and women, are of every generation, and don't favor one economic system over the other (our modern man-made economic systems didn't even exist in Biblical times). I do oppose LGBT as being morally contrary to Scripture, however, and I think Paul showed clearly that men are to lead churches because they were created first. That doesn't mean women can't work, vote, etc., but it does mean they shouldn't pastor churches.
I made a thread about my upbringing in another sub-forum here.
I'm an American born in 1984, on the older end of the "Millennial" generation. My mother (who passed in 2018) was on the younger end of the "Silent Generation." My father (still around) is a core "Baby Boomer."
I was raised to believe Jesus is the Only Way. This is correct! But I was also raised to believe witness/proselytizing isn't important. My dad taught an odd heresy that people can be saved after they die.
This raises questions, how much should we witness? What is effective witness? If we turn people away, is that necessarily indicative of being a bad witness?
In 1 Peter 3, we're told that wives win over unbelieving husbands by deeds, not words. I thus don't try to argue my unbelieving husband into faith. He does find it interesting to hear about what I believe, and why. But we try to avoid theological arguments.
As for my witness to others in my generation...that actually tends to be MORE hostile. "Millennial women," especially the younger ones born in the 1990s, often view all Christianity as patriarchal, capitalistic, and nationalistic. They don't think Christian women are worthy of respect.
I can tell them, my father was rather easygoing (and he was/is; he's not the domineering sort, and he's rather spontaneously emotional for a man his age as well, and likes lots of "rhythmic"/emotive music, not typical for White conservatives, apparently!). I wasn't raised in patriarchy, but I do believe (and my family believes) that men should be church leaders because of the order of creation (as Paul laid out in Scripture).
But they hate this. They think that's every bit as "patriarchal" as those who don't allow women to work, vote, etc. (Even though my dad was fine with all of those things, and I have worked and voted.)
As for capitalism and socialism, I can tell them that most Western societies have free markets, including Sweden, and that this isn't really the same thing as communism. I can tell them that I'm not necessarily opposed to those kinds of economies. I can also explain to them that capitalism and socialism are man-made economic systems formed by Adam Smith and Karl Marx in the 1700s and 1800s, and that our economic preferences really aren't that indicative of faith, per se -- it's just something Americans like to argue about (I also point out to them that 5% of China is Christian while being socialist, while only 2% of Japan is while being capitalist). But as far as they're concerned, Christianity is "greedy capitalism."
As far as nationalism, I explain to them that Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world, and that the New Testament writers like Paul, Peter, etc. never really described nationalism in the Scriptures. Christians do hope that nations will follow more of what is outlined in Scripture, but that such things aren't a guarantee, and that Christians should be willing to suffer persecution, even in nations that don't follow Christianity. So in other words, Christians must place their faith first in Christ, regardless if the nation they live in follows a form of politics conducive to Christian society, or not. But they don't like this, they just insist all Christians are really nationalists who want to force everyone to follow a "Christian" version of Sharia law (all while often defending Muslims as 'oppressed' minorities, mind you).
Finally, lots of younger people get this idea that Christians are older American white men. Yet many Black Americans are Christian. Yes, they do vote Democrat 90-95% of the time, but Black Americans tend to oppose LGBT legislation. This is also true of many Africans. I've never once met anyone, whether Christian or non, who can explain this phenomenon to me. For some reason, African descended people are much better about opposing LGBT than white Europeans are, regardless if they live in the US or not.
So, in essence, today's young Americans think --
Christians are white capitalist Baby Boomer American males who want to oppress minorities, women, LGBT!
But I read the Bible and see that Christians come from every nation, are both men and women, are of every generation, and don't favor one economic system over the other (our modern man-made economic systems didn't even exist in Biblical times). I do oppose LGBT as being morally contrary to Scripture, however, and I think Paul showed clearly that men are to lead churches because they were created first. That doesn't mean women can't work, vote, etc., but it does mean they shouldn't pastor churches.
Hello kdm1984;
In the Book of Acts Peter, John, Paul, Stephen, Philip and others are great Biblical examples of an effective witness and how much they witnessed cannot be measured but always prompted by the Holy Spirit. The greatest example of an effective witness was when Jesus confronted Saul.
When sharing the Gospel in the NT, discussions of the Roman Republic, prefects and the generations were left out exclusively. Today's world gets caught up with the political and generations, and they are quite good at it. Question is, what solutions do they offer? Our witness of Christ and our personal testimony should be the main verb in our evangelism and witness which always provides a solution, the love, hope and grace of God.
I have my personal challenges. When I see the handsome man or stunning woman on TV advocating and condoning society's celebration of sin, the truth is they can reveal their fleshly desires of acceptance publicly, but will keep their deep secrets in the dark. I choose to remain in the Light. But I can't jump into the TV screen and rebuke them but I can pray for the lost to turn into being found. The same goes for those closest to me.
God bless you, kdm1984 and keep up the fight for Christ.
1st of all, may I say to you that it would be helpful if you would use the "REPLY" option on a thread.
The way you are doing your post does not allow anyone to know you are posting unless we are specifically looking. You made several comments that I would like to adress, more for people readin than anything else.
You said..............
"My dad taught an odd heresy that people can be saved after they die."
Please do not allow his error to infect you. That is Catholic as well as Mormon theology and it is NOT FOUND in the Word of God!
You said.............
"how much should we witness? What is effective witness? If we turn people away, is that necessarily indicative of being a bad witness?"
How much..........................................................NO LIMIT!
What is an effective witness?......................Telling the story of the gospel of Jesus Christ!
If we turn people away=bad witness?.....You can not turn away anyone who is not 1st saved. They are DEAD in sin!
You said......................
"But we try to avoid theological arguments."
My dear sister, a lost man who is unsaved can not talk theological arguments! He can argue that he like sin, but not theology.
You said.....................
"I do believe (and my family believes) that men should be church leaders because of the order of creation (as Paul laid out in Scripture).
BINGO! It is called Federal Headship which mean the man is the one responsible for the family!
You said.......................
"Socialism in the West............and that this isn't really the same thing as communism."
Not so my dear. Socialism IS the 1st step toward Communism. Marxist always insist that socialism must be done before Communism.
You said.................
"Nationalism .....As far as nationalism,..."
Christians are not Nationalists! Christianity is a religion. It’s a set of beliefs about ultimate things: most importantly, about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christian nationalism is a political ideology with NO basis in the Word of God. The USA is not a Chrisian nation. It was at one time but not now.
Thanks for your thoughts and I encourage you to be strong AND be a witness to your husband. Sometimes, I have found it heloful to ask nonbelievers to prove their thinking.
Example........IF you do not believe Jesus died on the cross, who do YOU think it was that the historians spoke of.
Example........If this Jesus did not rise from the dead, what do YOU think happened to His body?
Example........IF YOU do not believe the Bible is God's Word, how do YOU explain that 100% of what it said took place?
I realize that YOU personally are not saying these things and that you are giving what others have told you. I only thought I could give you some words of advice or ammunition to use in your conversations.
Nationalism is a divisive influence within the Church Universal because Christians are present in EVERY nation.
Exactly my point! Thanks for the post!
i see your profile shows Springfield mo i am in Southern mo lower end of the ozarks.. you laid out lots interesting things. i see your birth year 1984 ..i graduated in 1980 many things i could comment on. times are changing people are changing some good some not so good.
witnessing this day in age as per evangelize is tough. i do witness when the door is opened. i find in acts we been given the Power to be a witness (let our light shine) i dont know as if there is any one certain thing or things we can nail down. that has caused the decline. i am a firm believer in Church attendance. but i am a even bigger believer we need to be the Church .
that is a pretty tough thing to digest . i can preach to your generation but the Big question is how can i reach them. then how can i prove your above statement is not true.
i am not about to nit pick your post apart .see i have read your post . i can not say i disagree its something to ponder on .
:" young Americans think --
Christians are white capitalist Baby Boomer American males who want to oppress minorities, women, LGBT! " i dont oppress them but they need to understand what the Bible says i have nothing against women when it comes to church the women are on the frontline working, not against minorities. they need to work like the rest of us. the American work force is lacking today.
the LGBT are in serious error they have civil rights like i do. but not special rights as a group. what they do behind closed doors is between them and GOD . bring it out in the public try to influence the children {transgenderism with drag queen shows .yes i oppose that along with same sex couples adopting kids . other than that i find your post interesting
Debra, you did not use the "Reply" option so I do not know who you are talking to.
Could you clarify this for us?
I am "Major".
You said............
"From your statement, 2nd to the last paragraph, I’m going to assume you have a problem with, the so called “Fundamental Conservatives.” Why? Do you even know what that means, to be a “Fundamental Conservative?” According to your statement, I highly doubt that….".
Would you please copy and paste what you are referring to so that I do not have to guess.
The last part of my post #1 was..........
"Well I have and that means I have been in church longer than you have! People leave for all kinds of reasons but in the last 20 years or so, I have seen people leave the church for a LIBERAL church because the pastor preached the Word of God.
When....IF a preacher denounces something, action, sin....... that a certain political party promotes that God calls sin, those in his church of that party leave to find a church that fits their POLITICAL persuasion where they can go to church have no conviction of their sin."
Is THAT what you are talking about. ??????
This is an interesting read:
Abstract
The study attempts to clarify whether the label ‘conservative’ describes the identity of a Christian believer more accurately than that of ‘liberal’. After sketching the anthropological dynamic of the conservative and liberal tempers, the author proposes that both elements are to be found in true Christian identity, though each and every Christian needs to integrate them, overcoming the sinfulness that blocks this integration: the Christian receives in faith from God in Christ through the Church a divine treasure of word and grace, and should ‘conserve’ it not out of a spirit of sterile, traditionalist nostalgia but with a deep sense of gratitude; yet that divine treasure needs to be freely interiorised under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and communicated in hope to future generations of believers; free interiorising and generous communication involve a ‘liberal’ spirit. In this way, it should be possible to overcome the all-too-frequent, simplistic antagonism between the labels of conservatism and liberalism applied to Christians. The personal synthesis between conservatism and liberalism that Christians carry out involves three polarities: between nature and freedom, between the work of Christ and that of the Holy Spirit, and between faith and hope.OK.
I would be glad to respond but I do not know to what it is I would be responding to.
By the way.......I am a very "Fundamental Christian".
Ask anyone on this site! Or go to the posts on the Doctrine side and you will read all about my theological stance.
Nice to have you here.
I would say that A temperamental ambivalence may be observed between the liberal and the conservative believer, however, in respect of the motivation conservatives have for holding on to what they have received, an ambivalence situated somewhere between fear and insecurity is not something that affects me personally.
I am for one, deeply concerned over losing what God has given us in His written Word. Now some may think that I am "holding on" to something and in a sense that is true.
When we lose the moral values and stability that God has given us, we see what is happening in our society right now.
Christian Liberalism is the scourge of our faith.
Modern liberalism, has lost sight of the two great presuppositions of the Christian message.........
1. We have a living God, and
2. The fact of sin.
The liberal doctrine of God and the liberal doctrine of man are both diametrically opposite to the Biblical Christian view. But the divergence concerns not only the presuppositions of the message, but also the message itself.
The Christian message has come to us through the Bible. What shall we think about this Book in which the message is contained is what makes all the difference in the world!
In a word, theological liberalism continually asks 'Hath God said?" ..while it spills over into political liberalism.
Last edited:
Yeah, I often wonder how persons calling themselves Christians can go to the polls and vote for candidates who favor baby killing and sexual perversion. Such people really need to examine the true status of their relationship with God. Is their relationship with YHWH or with the "god" defined by modern culture?
Hm. While I do not favor either, it is worth noting that both parties support some version of abortion. I do not believe it is possible to find a single politician that goes straight down the Christian value chart. I believe that life starts at conception, so an abortion on day one is the same as day 90. I know of no politician that would advocate a total ban, so you?
NO American politician has an ounce of honesty or integrity. They thirst for power and will say or do anything to gain the approval and the vote of the mob that passes for an electorate in the United States today. America's biggest mistake was giving the vote to the idealistic teenagers of the of the MTV generation.
Ok help me out here. Who is the MTV generation? MTV started in 1981, so I was 21.
It's a pejorative expression referring to brainwashed teenagers going back to the days of the anti-war movement. No one under the age of 25 has a fully developed brain. Why allow people only 18 years old to participate in the extremely serious election process?