Annihilationism

Status
Not open for further replies.
Huntingteckel said:
Mitspa, I would assume that they, like me, spend a lot of time on Google researching. They probably found this thread by searching for Annihilationism or Conditionalism and wanted to discuss it.

RethinkingHell is a popular site, Mitspa. I've had it bookmarked for quite a while. And who cares if they know each other?



It would seem like it but you have to keep in mind that our English Bible was translated from Greek and Hebrew texts written a long time ago. If you've ever read C. S. Lewis you can tell that even less than 100 years ago we were wording things slightly differently.
Click to expand...

hence, I gave the exact Greek Wording used for those in the lake of fire and their torment is day and night, forever and ever..... The Ancient Greek Expression was used of Eis Aion Aion.

it means age after age forever. In fact, the expression is even more eternal and forever than Aionios because Aionios is a Greek Adjective, not a Male noun that continues forever unless defined in the article.

Aionios was translated as Eternal or everlasting.

I could say wait Aionios until I get back from the store. Paul used the word once this way. It just means you don't leave, but wait until the defined time of me getting back from the store.

Aionios by itself just means to continue until told to stop, if told to stop.

So, even though I fully believe God was more than able to get correct concepts across in every language, we still can go back and start looking at the original Greek and Hebrew, and will have to do that when folks can't understand a simple phrase by Jesus stating you can have Eternal punishment or eternal life in the same scripture.

If one is eternal then so is the other, a 1st grader can read and understand better than some. If one is a Green Apple and one is a Red Apple, then guess what, they are both apples.
 
Ken Bussell said:
Yes, you are right. Eternal punish-MENT is eternal and lasts forever. But the act of punish-ING does not. Just as eternal salvation lasts forever, but the act of saving does not. Just like eternal redemption lasts forever, but the act of redeeming does not.

Hebrews 5:9 "and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him"

Hebrews 9:12 "he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. "

Jesus will not be continually in the act of saving and redeeming each and every Christian for all eternity. Salvation and redemption are singular acts whose consequences are final and eternal. The consequence of eternal punishment is destruction, a destruction which is final and eternal.

So there is no difficulty at all understanding Matthew 25:46 from a conditionalist view.
Click to expand...
I think I will get lost if I read through this and try to come back so instead I will comment as I go along.

Consequence is a result. The result of salvation is living, life.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" so your comparison should be between destruction and life (Romans 6:23)

The contrast of life is death.

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:1).

What produces death, the fruit of death, that is everything that is not of faith in God who is life.

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

"Everything that is not of faith is sin" and produces death.

Those believers in the afterlife will only be in faith and will only produce fruit from the Spirit which is life.

"If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:44). It is the spiritual body that is eternal.

"I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" (1 Corinthians 15:50).

Just as believers will only be producing life, those in eternal hell will only be producing death. It is the spirit of a person that produces fruit not their corruptible self, which is why a believer lives from the Holy Spirit whose fruit is not their own, but as a saved person they live by the fruit of the Holy Spirit of God. Those in eternal torment live in their own spirits and even though dead in trespasses and sins (that means they are not producing life) they still are producing death continuously eternally because without God they can only produce from their own spirit which is a producer of death because it has no faith in it.

So the comparison should be producing eternally life, to producing eternally death.
 
Ken Bussell said:
That is exactly what supporters of ECT do. They come to the Bible with a presupposed belief in an immortal soul and eternal conscious torment, find a handful of passages that seem to support that, and reinterpret all the rest to fit (destroy doesn't mean destroy, perish doesn't mean perish, etc.). The vast majority of scripture teaches plainly that the wicked will be destroyed, they will be consumed, they will perish, cut down like weeds, burnt up like chaff, . The small number of verses you quoted need to be interpreted in light of the majority, not vice versa.

I held a traditional view of hell for 20 years without ever really studying it in depth, just relying on a few passages and proof texts and trusting that the church was right. When I became willing to leave my presuppositions behind, the Bible changed my mind.

Side note: A fire that cannot be quenched is a fire that will completely consume a person. A worm that will not die is a worm that will completely devour a person. These are eternal qualities of the fire and the worm, not qualities of the person.
Click to expand...
What is ECT. Please write the specific verses you are talking about and don't ask me to watch a long video to find them. Thank you.
 
Ken Bussell said:
Yes we do, Matthew 10:28. And we certainly have no scripture that tells us a human spirit is immortal or eternal or will live forever.

But don't listen to me. Listen to God Himself:

Psalm 2:9
9 You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Psalm 37:2
2 for like the grass they will soon wither, like green plants they will soon die away.

Psalm 37:9-10
9 For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land. 10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found.

Psalm 37:20
20 But the wicked will perish: Though the Lord’s enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

Psalm 37:34
34 Hope in the Lord and keep his way. He will exalt you to inherit the land; when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
38 But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalm 58:8
8 May they be like a slug that melts away as it moves along, like a stillborn child that never sees the sun.

Psalm 68:2
2 May you blow them away like smoke — as wax melts before the fire, may the wicked perish before God.

Psalm 94:23
23 He will repay them for their sins and destroy them for their wickedness; the Lord our God will destroy them.

Psalm 112:10
10 The wicked will see and be vexed, they will gnash their teeth and waste away; the longings of the wicked will come to nothing.

Proverbs 24:20
20 for the evil have no future; the lamp of the wicked will go out.

Isaiah 13:6
6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; as destruction from the Almighty[a] it will come!

Isaiah 14:23
23 “And I will make it a possession of the hedgehog, and pools of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” declares the Lord of hosts.

Isaiah 66:24
24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Malachi 4:1-3
4 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 3:12
12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Matthew 7:13
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Matthew 10:28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 17:26-30
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Romans 2:12
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 9:22
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

1 Corinthians 3:17
17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

Galatians 6:8
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Philippians 1:28
28 without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God.

Philippians 3:19
19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Hebrews 10:39
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

Hebrews 10:27
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Hebrews 12:29
29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”

James 1:15
15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-
grown, gives birth to death.

James 4:12
12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

James 5:3
3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.

James 5:5
5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.

James 5:20
20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

2 Peter 2:3
3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

2 Peter 2:6
6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

2 Peter 2:12
12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

2 Peter 3:7
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

John 3:36
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Jude 1:7
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Click to expand...
The soul and spirit are two separate things:

"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
 
God calls me Olivia said:
The soul and spirit are two separate things:

"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
Click to expand...
Look Olivia...if you think your going to reason with these guys in the truth of scripture? Your only going to be disappointed... But give it a shot ,you seem to be able to approach issues in a different way and could open the door of truth and let out some of the bad air that surrounds what has been presented on this issue to this point?
 
Mitspa said:
Look Olivia...if you think your going to reason with these guys in the truth of scripture? Your only going to be disappointed... But give it a shot ,you seem to be able to approach issues in a different way and could open the door of truth and let out some of the bad air that surrounds what has been presented on this issue to this point?
Click to expand...

Olivia, the reason that this thread is so long is because the thread has been dogged with bickering and name calling that had nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you removed all the bickering and fighting and just left the posts that were really talking to the debate topic you could probably reduce this thread to a handful of pages.

If you really care to see the worst offenders just find the posts that call people stupid, ignorant or having devils. None of this was relevant to the debate.

As far as new material or cases for either side that you can't already find in a good youtube debate on this topic I would say that there would be only 2 or 3 posts in this entire thread that are really saying anything new or interesting.
 
God calls me Olivia said:
What is ECT. Please write the specific verses you are talking about and don't ask me to watch a long video to find them. Thank you.
Click to expand...

What Ken is saying is the "Vast" majority of scripture in his thinking describe the human spirit as being destroyed as to come to nothing.

I already showed Ken the Word destroyed Jesus used can also be used for someone lost and needs to hear about Jesus.

Ken also believes that we Weight scripture and find the ones we like and hope it outweighs the (Make believe counter scriptures) so that we can believe what we want.

God's Word never contradicts, not even in one scripture or passage and the Word is perfect.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

so because we have scripture of everlasting contempt, everlasting punishment, everlasting torment of their smoke that goes up day and night, then we know that it has to match all those other scriptures we thought meant destroyed completely.

In fact they can't mean destroyed completely and we find the Holy Spirit even had Better Greek words to use to denote disintegrated, or dissolved. The Holy Spirit did not use those Words.

What someone does not say, is also important.

We also have ZERO scripture that the spirit of a man can be destroyed, just as Satan is a spirit and will not be destroyed.

So while Ken tries to find "Weight" of scriptures, I always look for every single scripture to match, and seek wisdom and Ask God about the ones i don't understand as matching. I don't question the integrity of God's Word.

As in Kens Video, he don't care for that passage in revelation because it don't match his "Weight" of scriptures.

I know, it's amazing people think this way.


 
He just gets to a scripture that cant be twisted by changing words or taking it out of context and just says basically he don't think it should be that way so it cant possibly be true... How can you debate scripture with such people...you cant and its just a waste of time to try..
 
Look lets make it simple...What we are referring to is the "lake of fire"

Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

Lets also make this clear, if God does it, its just! This whole concept that man needs to judge how God punishes the wicked? Is a direct product and fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...whereby man attempts to exalt his judgment above that of God.
 
Mitspa said:
Look lets make it simple...What we are referring to is the "lake of fire"

Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

Lets also make this clear, if God does it, its just! This whole concept that man needs to judge how God punishes the wicked? Is a direct product and fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...whereby man attempts to exalt his judgment above that of God.
Click to expand...


Did you just copy and paste that from one of your previous posts?
 
Mitspa said:
He just gets to a scripture that cant be twisted by changing words or taking it out of context and just says basically he don't think it should be that way so it cant possibly be true... How can you debate scripture with such people...you cant and its just a waste of time to try..
Click to expand...

Well, being in the Healing and prosperity camp, I don't like the scripture that God made David's baby sick unto death. Says God did it.

Now I can show that in the OT most of it should have been translated as permissive and we see that later in Isaiah and later prophets. Hebrew Scholars agree that most should have been translated God allowed.

Even so, disobedience gives place to the devil. We see this account when God caused David to number his troops and another passage said it's all Satan's fault David did. Both are correct, because David in His heart was going to number them regardless and God giving judgement gave place to the enemy to come in. Where their is no Word of protection, there is the devil.

So God did it through Judgement of David's heart, and Satan came in to help it along.


HOWEVER........... if that is to much to take in and you believe God made David's baby sick unto death, then the simple solution would be to stay on God's side as those folks always got blessed.

I don't ignore any scripture, God kills and makes alive......... God will smite thee with sickness and the botch of Egypt, Jacob hip, Job, Paul's thorn, are all things that are just as true despite I believe God wants us healed and all scripture I have to deal with in a REASONABLE and UNDERSTANDABLE Way without saying one of them is not true.

If I have to get in Greek and Hebrew to explain why God wants us healed and twist meanings........... then my Doctrine is MYTH BUSTED!!!!!
 
MichaelH said:
Well, being in the Healing and prosperity camp, I don't like the scripture that God made David's baby sick unto death. Says God did it.

Now I can show that in the OT most of it should have been translated as permissive and we see that later in Isaiah and later prophets. Hebrew Scholars agree that most should have been translated God allowed.

Even so, disobedience gives place to the devil. We see this account when God caused David to number his troops and another passage said it's all Satan's fault David did. Both are correct, because David in His heart was going to number them regardless and God giving judgement gave place to the enemy to come in. Where their is no Word of protection, there is the devil.

So God did it through Judgement of David's heart, and Satan came in to help it along.


HOWEVER........... if that is to much to take in and you believe God made David's baby sick unto death, then the simple solution would be to stay on God's side as those folks always got blessed.

I don't ignore any scripture, God kills and makes alive......... God will smite thee with sickness and the botch of Egypt, Jacob hip, Job, Paul's thorn, are all things that are just as true despite I believe God wants us healed and all scripture I have to deal with in a REASONABLE and UNDERSTANDABLE Way without saying one of them is not true.

If I have to get in Greek and Hebrew to explain why God wants us healed and twist meanings........... then my Doctrine is MYTH BUSTED!!!!!
Click to expand...

How is this relevant to this thread? This thread is about annihilationism, not healing.
 
Patricia Dalmadge said:
And any destroying of the wicked, I take to mean physically. How can eternal punishment mean someone being totally destroyed? God is not the author of confusion, He wouldn't use eternal punishment if people are going to be totally destroyed, He would use eternally destroyed. Wouldn't He?
Click to expand...

"Eternal Destruction" does also appear in the Bible (2 Thess 1:9). Also there are a number of nouns qualified by "eternal" where it is clearly the consequences which are eternal- eternal redemption, eternal judgement... In the context of all Jesus says about the end times (the wicked being burnt up like weeds, soul and body being destroyed...) it seems more than reasonable to me to see eternal punishment in the same light (the consequences are eternal- the wicked will never come back to life).
 
Last edited:
MichaelH said:
The devil is not alone, I provided scripture that the same wrath and 2nd death will also be faced by people. Jesus mentioned it to the churches in Rev 2.

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
(Rev 14:7)
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:9-11)

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
(Rom 2:5-6)
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

They all get the same as the devil and have a part in the Lake of fire with Him. ZERO scripture denoting they burn up and the devil is not burned up. Satan is a created spirit just like people are.



Amazing people are that self deceived.
Click to expand...

I think you'll find that in Revelation 14 where you underline "the same" it is saying that those who worship the beast will suffer the same fate as Babylon (have a look at the context- there is certainly no reason to believe it speaks of the beast, devil and false prophet!). What happens to Babylon. If you look in Rev 18 and 19 you will see it is completely destroyed, and exactly the same imagery of smoke rising forever is used.
 
No need to debate the meaning of words...these passages make the issue very clear!
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top