Mary, Mother Of The Lamb(flesh) Of God, Not Mother Of God

the Pharisees complained when someone did something that was not as the Torah said it should be ..
In Christ we have liberty ..
this means as long as you are not breaking the 10 commandments or any SPECIFICALLY enumerated sins in the NT (believers are not bound by Mosaic Law) then to judge another under what you follow is unrighteous .. and all you are doing is showing all you have a critical spirit aka a hater ..

notice these same ones always never use compassion but condescension ..

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Jam 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

do you understand ???
if spitting was a sin to you and you do it .. YOU SINNED ..
if it is not a sin to me and I do it .. I DID NOT SIN ..
so YOU cannot tell me it is a sin ..
because YOUR conscience/heart cannot judge my conscience/heart ..

this is where compassion not condescension comes into play ..
"you can have ALL Faith as to move mountains, but if you do not have Love, YOU ARE NOTHING" (1Cr 13:2)

LOVE is kind, patient etc .. (1Cr 13:4-7)
if you do not love your brethren, you do not love God (1Jo 4:20) ..

so those who ATTACK Catholics are NOT following Christ's teachings ..
Jesus Himself says to enter heaven, you must love God with your ALL and neighbor as self ..

here is the correct way to correct your brethren ..
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

accusations taken off some old talking point list that neither is accurate or delivered with love nor patience .. is NOT the proper Christian Conduct .. and after a while one sees those making the accusations have no intention of understanding or allowing the Liberty of the Law, then need to be rebuked before all because they are sinning ..
they have no intention of loving Catholics .. this is sad .. me not being a Catholic do align myself with them for this reason .. if it was the other way around, then I would be against them for being against God and not loving their brethren ..

God Bless you ..
 
Last edited:
the Pharisees complained when someone did something that was not as the Torah said it should be ..
In Christ we have liberty ..
this means as long as you are not breaking the 10 commandments or any SPECIFICALLY enumerated sins in the NT (believers are not bound by Mosaic Law) then to judge another under what you follow is unrighteous .. and all you are doing is showing all you have a critical spirit aka a hater ..

notice these same ones always never use compassion but condescension ..

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Jam 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

do you understand ???
if spitting was a sin to you and you do it .. YOU SINNED ..
if it is not a sin to me and I do it .. I DID NOT SIN ..
so YOU cannot tell me it is a sin ..
because YOUR conscience/heart cannot judge my conscience/heart ..

Yes I think I understand.. Thanks :)
 
I cannot understand how someone can be an accuser day and night, day after day, month after month of their brethren who love God .. and still think they are pleasing to God ..

Rev 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
 
Yes I think I understand.. Thanks :)

you're welcome ..
Love is everything ..
when you love .. all falls into place ..
when you stop loving .. then then you are not of God ..

Jhn 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

God Bless you as you seek to keep His ways ..
 
the Pharisees complained when someone did something that was not as the Torah said it should be ..
In Christ we have liberty ..
this means as long as you are not breaking the 10 commandments or any SPECIFICALLY enumerated sins in the NT (believers are not bound by Mosaic Law) then to judge another under what you follow is unrighteous .. and all you are doing is showing all you have a critical spirit aka a hater ..

notice these same ones always never use compassion but condescension ..

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Jam 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

do you understand ???
if spitting was a sin to you and you do it .. YOU SINNED ..
if it is not a sin to me and I do it .. I DID NOT SIN ..
so YOU cannot tell me it is a sin ..
because YOUR conscience/heart cannot judge my conscience/heart ..

I agree with this 100%. That is why we never violate our conscience even on little things and should tell no believer to violate their conscience.

What the heck does this have to do with the Catholic church though?

Praying to Mary is called Idolatry. I find it hard to believe that despite never have heard I as a believer filled with the Holy Spirit could not know that kneeling down to the cut out heart of a human displayed on a table was not wrong.

I even get a check in my spirit if I was to just litter, I would have to violate my conscience to do so.

I don't judge someone because I don't know what light they are given. Some even ask questions and that which is not faith is sin. Even having to ask means no to you as you can't do it in faith with no questioning.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

So while spitting on the sidewalk may not bother ones conscience. It may bother another it's a far cry from practices forbidden in the word.

2Co 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Is not what is right not written in our heart? Can a pure heart before God hang a rotting corpse on a wall and not be pricked calling it worship?

To do such things one must override their conscience until it be seared. They must reason out what is right with God so their conscience no longer speaks to them. That must exercise and practice these things for the heart should cry out abba father, not Help me Mary.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

You see Help me Mary,Mother of God, Hail Mary (200 times) in that scripture? What is the Saved heart suppose to seek and cry out to? Can you answer that? Hint, I gave you the scripture.
(God sent forth his Spirit and even without knowledge of scripture the Spirit would be crying to the Father, not some dead saint or Jesus earthly Mother)

2Pe 2:14
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

We have a young believer asking question about the Catholic church and you give her some run around and half the picture. I agree 100% with half of what you gave, but it's deception not giving everything and covering up what you should know to be wrong and corrupt.

Shameful.

We don't put down and attack a Catholic person. Just because we don't do that does not mean we also cover up and make little the things that are contrary to What the scripture tell us. My feelings for the person who is Catholic is not the same as what I know about the system they believe in.
 
Amen.......tell the truth !!
The problem is that it is not the truth. The Word of God ≠ the Bible for us Roman Catholics. While the Word of God includes the 73 books of the Bible, those 73 books are not the totality of the Word of God. MichaelH can quote all the biblical verses he wants, but that does not give him understanding.

"In fact, Sacred Scripture is the Word of God in that it is written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Sacred Tradition, instead, transmits the Word of God in its entirety, entrusted by Christ the Lord and by the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and their successors, so that these, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, might faithfully preserve it with their preaching, might expound and propound it." — Pope Francis

St. Paul himself writes, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15). St. Paul makes no distinction.
 
St. Paul himself writes, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15). St. Paul makes no distinction.

That might hold a bit of water if Catholics did not show up 1,000 years after the 12 Apostals finished scripture. In fact Nothing in Acts the first Church points to anything Catholic specific. The Word was to be written, not carried mouth to mouth.
Now Catholics claim to have been around since the first Church, but nobody has every come up with any proof of that. Praying to Mary with a handful of beads did not show up until 1,200 years later and that is history.

However......................

If your Born again the Scripture says your heart cries out Abba Father.

If your not born again then you would cry out to anything else but Abba Father.

Jesus said You pray to the Father, ask in my name. He never mentioned bothering Mary about anything.

Being Born again is real, it's a new spirit in you, a new person. Your heart would be turned to Only the creator and nobody else. You would not even consider asking any thing else in pray but the Father in Heaven.

Not one time praying to My Father in Heaven did he ever say...." Ummm, Hey son, I am busy. I am going to put you on the line with Peter, just tell him what you need, OK?"

In fact, scripture says

Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

So what happens if I trust in Peter? Or Trust in Mary? What happens? A curse.

What happens if I go to others for my need instead of God? A Curse.

Because I am born again, My heart would never consider the need to pray to Mary or seek Peters advice. My heart only cries Father the creator.

Just a couple years ago the State of MO dragged me into court for violation of a new law passed. Nobody knew anything about the Law, it was unconstitutional as you can't add things to convicted felons years later.

That did not stop them from wanting to put me in Jail for a year.

I did not go pray to Mary....... NOPE. I just went the Father and said, "Lord you see what they are doing, I need direction, I receive it now by faith and thank you for it.."

I don't go to a lawyer, I do nothing until I hear for God.

The first hearing based on constitutional considerations:
I tried with another group of lawyers to get the charge thrown out based on it being unconstitutional. I came on my own behalf and spoke under the Anointing of God. The other lawyers who had their clients also busted spoke and I felt we presented a great case to the judge. I believed God was going to move and get the charges thrown out.

Did not happen.

They summoned me a year later to set a trail date. The judge said being a lower court, He was not in position to over rule the Supreme Court though he did take things into consideration............

I already asked the Lord direction months back. I don't need to ask again but was waiting to hear standing in front of the judge.

The judge then asked if I was going to represent myself, I told him yes. The judge then asked when I would like the trial date set....

JUST THEN IN MY sPIRT I heard..................... "Tell him a month and a half from now, don't fear, watch what I am going to do."

I said your honor, i would like the trail Jan 14th which was exactly a month and a half from then. I knew I was asking a whole lot, the prosecution was ready to take me to trail. The judge said that is a bit far out don't you think? I told him I needed to prepare and defend myself. The judged ask the prosecuted if it was OK and strangely he said he did not have an issue with it.

so I spent every day looking up case files, printing and in study to prepare for my trail. Faith gets ready!!! I already heard the Lord though..... "Watch what I am going to do."

The day of trial I had no fear. I had a big folder full of case studies and was just going to say what the Holy Spirit told me to say. The judge finally called my name up and I approached the bench. I was ready as could be and the prosecutor stepped up right next to me.

The prosecutor said..........."Due to the finding yesterday by the MO Supreme Court the law unconstitutional which we are charging the defendant with. The State drops all charges. "

the day before which I did not know about the Supreme Court changed the law based on being constitutionally challenged.

God told me....... Watch what I am going to do.........

I want every Believer that prays to false things to have this same kind of faith and power, with that kind of relationship with the Father. (Not Mary or some other thing) I don't want the devil to destroy anyone based on their ignorance.




I get called back in almost a year
 
Prayers to Mary and the saints are a totally different (though perhaps related for some) issue than the OP

...for example, based on what Elizabeth says to Mary (that she is mother of her Lord...who we know was YHVH) I see no problem with a correct understanding of the term mother of God (many of course argued for "mother of Christ" which for me is no different since Christ is God manifest in the flesh) but absolutely do see a problem praying TO Mary...

In light of the communion of the saints (by Unity in the Spirit) we ask each other all the time to pray with and for us...so with the exception of soul sleep groups I see no problem in asking any brother or sister (here or already passed over) to pray with or for us (even Mary). Jesus after all points out that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are still alive...

Now I being of the opinion that once with the Lord (to be absent here is present there for the saved) we can not hear those alive on earth and we while still here cannot hear them, and now that the veil has been rent (figuratively this means that which separated us from the Father has been removed) I see no reason why we should not pray to the Father directly or through Jesus coming boldly before the throne of grace to obtain mercy in times of need (Hebrews 4:16)

Going directly to the Father or to Jesus are our apostolic examples....no Apostle or immediate leader appointed by the Apostles EVER prays TO Mary or any alleged "saint"...

brother Paul
 
you're welcome ..
Love is everything ..
when you love .. all falls into place ..
when you stop loving .. then then you are not of God ..

Jhn 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

God Bless you as you seek to keep His ways ..

I try to keep my motives pure when researching what I believe to be false doctrine based on scripture. I do this thru prayer and worship, and reading the Bible. When I read I use different translations to reference. I don't just read christian apologetics but catholic as well and then try and determine what is truth.

When I became christian I prayed that God would give me discernment and guide me in my research.

It's not about proving anyone wrong. I'm trying to follow the Holy Spirit and also if I am doing something wrong I want to know. So far-- I haven't felt convicted to adopt any of the Catholic traditions. I feel complete and spiritually fed with prayer, worship, fellowship, bible study, and church sermons--- this has been my relationship with Christ for ten years and my closeness to him has continued to grow.

Tell me, do Catholics believe in sanctification of saints as a lifetime process ?
 
Tell me, do Catholics believe in sanctification of saints as a lifetime process ?

some have a suffering doctrine that by their suffering the get better or something. If that be true then everyone on the planet would be saved. Suffer does not cause faith or anything else but test patience, then experience then hope.

Once a Catholic dies then there is purgatory for those that did not behave well enough on earth. In this place they suffer because the Blood of Jesus was just not strong enough to get the job done. Once they are done doing their prison time in purgatory (unless some priest prays them out) then I guess they think they get to go on to heaven.
 
some have a suffering doctrine that by their suffering the get better or something. If that be true then everyone on the planet would be saved. Suffer does not cause faith or anything else but test patience, then experience then hope.

Once a Catholic dies then there is purgatory for those that did not behave well enough on earth. In this place they suffer because the Blood of Jesus was just not strong enough to get the job done. Once they are done doing their prison time in purgatory (unless some priest prays them out) then I guess they think they get to go on to heaven.

With all due respect, you've misunderstood the Catholic explanation for this once again.

Catholics believe in purgatory -- it isn't so much a place as it is an activity. In fact, most who are heaven-bound will probably have to go through purgatory because of our imperfections (Revelation 21:27). The grace of God is what saves us despite our perfections, but it doesn't perfect us. It has saved us from damnation and eternal suffering. Purgatory doesn't save you -- Christ did that by His work on the cross which everyone here would agree with -- but it does prepare us for entering into the presence of God.

Most verses in the NT especially that reference fire aren't referenced in a damning sort of way, but as an illustration of God's love for us. Hebrews 12:29 says "for our God is a consuming fire."

The best illustration I've ever heard for what purgatory is is when we are coming inside the house from the snow -- our boots our muddy, our clothes are dripping from the defrosted snow. We can come inside, but we have to remove our boots and clean off in the laundry room or garage before we can completely come inside the house. It's not that we CAN'T come inside the house -- we've already been invited in and we've accepted it -- but nothing muddy can come in with us.

When each of us have repented and been baptized and became Christians, that wasn't the end of it. It is necessary for us to live our lives by God's Word and obey Him. We have to confess what we've done wrong, and continue to ask for His forgiveness, even though we have been saved. You can compare purgatory to this earthly action Christians have. Just because we sin on earth doesn't mean we aren't saved, but just because we are saved doesn't mean we shouldn't be addressing our sins and asking God for forgiveness.

There is nothing unfinished with Christ's mission -- it is done! -- but it does need to be applied.
 
With all due respect, you've misunderstood the Catholic explanation for this once again.

Catholics believe in purgatory -- it isn't so much a place as it is an activity.
The best illustration I've ever heard for what purgatory is is when we are coming inside the house from the snow -- our boots our muddy, our clothes are dripping from the defrosted snow. We can come inside, but we have to remove our boots and clean off in the laundry room or garage before we can completely come inside the house. It's not that we CAN'T come inside the house -- we've already been invited in and we've accepted it -- but nothing muddy can come in with us.

When each of us have repented and been baptized and became Christians, that wasn't the end of it. It is necessary for us to live our lives by God's Word and obey Him. We have to confess what we've done wrong, and continue to ask for His forgiveness, even though we have been saved. You can compare purgatory to this earthly action Christians have. Just because we sin on earth doesn't mean we aren't saved, but just because we are saved doesn't mean we shouldn't be addressing our sins and asking God for forgiveness.

There is nothing unfinished with Christ's mission -- it is done! -- but it does need to be applied.

Well, looking at pictures by Cathloic Artist, I don't believe purgatory to be some "Activity" You make it sound like something you do with kids at Sunday school and from what I have seen and read, Purgatory is a miserable place, so bad that Priest step in to get loved ones out because the family does not want their loved one to be there.

Now, I don't believe in this place on bit, but what I believe means nothing when someone believes something else is true. It don't matter what we said, It is what people think you said that matters.

I will spare you all the scriptures about the blood and being washed white as snow and the sin cast into the sea of forgetfulness and how we are presented without spot or blemish by the work and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Purgatory not mentioned one time to fix things the Blood did not cover.

Your also misquoting God is a consuming fire.

Deu 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
(Deu 4:23-24)

Paul was quoting the OT............ I would not put yourself in God's pile where he has to be a consuming fire. That would mean your in serious trouble. Stay out of there.

Also don't say God is removing dross in your life. If you study those with dross were counted as witches and destroyed with no remedy. Don't put yourself in that group either.

I don't practice sin, that does not mean I don't blow it. I don't have a sin conscience.

Heb 10:2
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

I would suggest to just do what the Lord says do for the plan for your life, and avoid any concern for this place called purgatory. If you want to believe in such a place then I can't change that. However I can show you lots of scriptures where the Lord is on your side and you are the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Righteousness means just right standing with the Father. Stay in that position and just avoid any Purgatory. Disobedience will cost you everything in this life, so don't wait until the next to fix things in this Purgatory.
 
That might hold a bit of water if Catholics did not show up 1,000 years after the 12 Apostals finished scripture. In fact Nothing in Acts the first Church points to anything Catholic specific. The Word was to be written, not carried mouth to mouth.
Now Catholics claim to have been around since the first Church, but nobody has every come up with any proof of that. Praying to Mary with a handful of beads did not show up until 1,200 years later and that is history.
Your ignorance is truly astounding. You fail to understand that Roman Catholicism is a living religion and is not petrified in stone. Yet, the roots of our teachings reach back to the first centuries. Simply because you display the fact that the Rosary was not in use until the Medieval period, does nothing to combat the Catholic use of the Rosary. Prayers to Mary as the Mother of God go all the way back to the 3rd century (source). The Rosary is merely an extension of the original Catholic devotions to Mary. And the Protestant refusal to acknowledge that the Church Fathers and Early Christians were decidedly Catholic/Orthodox is willful ignorance. You also make the baseless assertion that "Word was to be written, not carried mouth to mouth". Prove it! Prove to me that in an Oral Culture the Word was to be written and not spoken!

If your Born again the Scripture says your heart cries out Abba Father.

If your not born again then you would cry out to anything else but Abba Father.

Jesus said You pray to the Father, ask in my name. He never mentioned bothering Mary about anything.
So your rule is that if Jesus does not say something than we should not do it? We must only do what Jesus said as recorded in the Gospels? I guess we should just throw all of the Apostle's Epistles out the window then. Come on, man! Your logic is so absurd. I cannot believe you actually believe what you write. This has to be a joke.

Being Born again is real, it's a new spirit in you, a new person. Your heart would be turned to Only the creator and nobody else. You would not even consider asking any thing else in pray but the Father in Heaven.

Not one time praying to My Father in Heaven did he ever say...." Ummm, Hey son, I am busy. I am going to put you on the line with Peter, just tell him what you need, OK?"
Why do you make the assumption that praying to God and to St. Peter are mutually exclusive?

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

So what happens if I trust in Peter? Or Trust in Mary? What happens? A curse.

What happens if I go to others for my need instead of God? A Curse.
By that same logic I should not trust in Jesus of Nazareth since He is also a man. See how silly your logic is? The Saints are deified and partake of the Divine Nature, so therefore praying to the Church Triumphant is not akin to praying towards any of Church Militant.

I want every Believer that prays to false things to have this same kind of faith and power, with that kind of relationship with the Father. (Not Mary or some other thing) I don't want the devil to destroy anyone based on their ignorance.
You are a bigot and a fool MichaelH. I do not care if you do not want to pray to Saints. I am not going to call you a heretic or a man in league with Satan. I would like you to extend me the same courtesy and not use our differences as a weapon to admonish my faith with God and Christ.
 
You are a bigot and a fool MichaelH. I do not care if you do not want to pray to Saints. I am not going to call you a heretic or a man in league with Satan. I would like you to extend me the same courtesy and not use our differences as a weapon to admonish my faith with God and Christ.

Well, I don't really care what you call me, don't bother me a bit. One thing I have to back up what I say is something called Scripture.

I would suggest in all love that you only believe what is in scripture. You can't go wrong with just scripture. There is power in the Word to help you when you need it. There is no power to help in vain things God never mentioned.

See, in the Word I am told who to pray to. That means I don't add a bunch of other folks I also need to pray to. I already have been given to pray to the father. That means I don't put my trust in anyone else. I suggest you start doing what the Word says do and be blessed by it.
 
Well, I don't really care what you call me, don't bother me a bit. One thing I have to back up what I say is something called Scripture.

I would suggest in all love that you only believe what is in scripture. You can't go wrong with just scripture. There is power in the Word to help you when you need it. There is no power to help in vain things God never mentioned.

See, in the Word I am told who to pray to. That means I don't add a bunch of other folks I also need to pray to. I already have been given to pray to the father. That means I don't put my trust in anyone else. I suggest you start doing what the Word says do and be blessed by it.
You are so thick-headed and do not get it. I already said that I believe the Word of God is Christ, Scripture and Sacred Tradition. You have provided me with no reason why I should believe that the 73 books of the Bible are exclusively the Word of God. My problem with you is not so much with your beliefs (even if I disagree with them). It's that there is no logic in your arguments. You assume a priori, what we are contesting. I contest the notion of Sola Scriptura, and all you do is say "Sola Scriptura is correct" without any justification.
 
MichaelH - this is one of the many areas in which you err - you have no idea what God has or has not said, or to whom.
This notion that "the Bible is the entire and complete commentary on everything and all that God has ever said"
is pure nonsense. God has spoken to thousands over the years, and what He has told them is every bit as valid as anything in the Bible. You wonder why the Saints can do things that you and other Saint despisers cannot? Because they are actually open to what God has said over the centuries and do not turn up their noses at what things you would not consider "official".
Which is odd since you despise the Church that gave you the Bible in the first place.
 
You are so thick-headed and do not get it. I already said that I believe the Word of God is Christ, Scripture and Sacred Tradition. You have provided me with no reason why I should believe that the 73 books of the Bible are exclusively the Word of God. My problem with you is not so much with your beliefs (even if I disagree with them). It's that there is no logic in your arguments. You assume a priori, what we are contesting. I contest the notion of Sola Scriptura, and all you do is say "Sola Scriptura is correct" without any justification.

Nobody has failed God with just scripture only. The power of God in my own life never relied on anything but scripture. Not what some denomination added in. We do not add to the Word or subtract from the Word. We do not follow things God never mentioned and there are only 66 books. None of the others were ever quoted or mentioned anywhere else in scripture.

If you believe the Word you do well, now cut off the man made stuff and you will do great.
 
Back
Top