Discussion in 'Biblical Advices' started by violet, Jun 21, 2007.
I hope we never have a woman president!
I really appreciate all the responses~
so what is the point?
I simply offer Biblical examples of women holding offices within and without the church. Junia, a woman was an apostle, one of the five-fold ministers. She was so proclaimed by Paul. Deborah was a Judge over all Israel at a time when the office of Judge was tied to the belief system as it was to secular office. Anna was a prophetess, again - a five-fold ministry office.
Women as Pastors is not unbiblical. Pastor is a five-fold ministry that is simply a servant of the flock, one who serves the saints by teaching and ministering to it.
I am afraid that totally disagrees with you and His word is what counts. First the Old testament is not what we live by, but the new is and we have clear and direct commands on this issue. In the case of Deborah she was not a priest. She was a judge and a prophetess. That means that she NEVER served in any temple. However it matters not what she was because she was in serving under the Old law, not the New (church in our day).
Anna was a prophetess,, but she never held any office. Any women can teach other women and she too would be a prophetess and yet be in obedience to the lord's word as long as she taught women. She could NEVER be a pastor however even to women since a pastor has to be a man according to scripture.
As for Junia here is the only scripture that we have;
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
The passage NEVER claims that she was an apostle any more then it claims that Andronicus was an apostle. The passage is clear that they both were known by the apostles and that both got saved before Paul did.
Here is a more technical response;
The identification of Junia in Rom 16.7 has been a familiar problem in biblical interpretation. Most studies, however, are preoccupied with the gender of the name, assuming that Junia's apostolic status is not in doubt. This article addresses the latter issue. The collocation of [epsilon][pi][iota][sigma][eta][mu][omicron][final small sigma] with its adjuncts shows that, as a rule, [epsilon][pi][iota][sigma][eta][mu][omicron][final small sigma] with a genitive personal adjunct indicates an inclusive comparison (‘outstanding among’), while [epsilon][pi][iota][sigma][eta][mu][omicron][final small sigma] with ([epsilon][nu] plus) the personal dative indicates an elative notion without the implication of inclusion (‘well known to’). This study concludes that Junia was well known to the apostles rather than outstanding among them.
However no matter how we may want to promote our own agenda we do have clear scripture;
Titus 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Sort of clear.
No you have not. There is absolutely no mention of her holdiing an office. What you are doing is adding to scripture by claiming that she held an office. We have scripture forbidding such.
I'm not one to be idly acused of promoting y own agenda. I disagree strongly with you but do not accuse me of promoting my own agenda.
The arguments you use are tried and tried again. They were wrong then and they're wrong now. Prophets and Apostles are five-fold ministries just like the office of Pastor. They have the same or higher requirements as a pastor.
Here's another interesting quote for you, this time from Chuck Smith's Commentary:
So, since you don't agree with women being pastors, I suggest you avoid them. Leave the wisdom that God wants to deliver through them to those who believe that God can, and does, ordain them. Please stop trying to convince others that they are wrong.
thank you for the reply however I care not about what Chuck Smith says. Only about what the bible says and it clearly forbids women as pastors. God never calls a woman into the Pastorate. Any woman who is in a pastors position is in opposition to God as well as anyone who supports her.
If you are interected here is some quoyes from early church fathers Bishops to be exact
2:11 Let a Woman Learn in Quietness
Women Retain Authority in the Home. Theodore of Mopsuestia: While Paul forbids women teaching in church, he very much wants them to exercise their authority in the home as the teachers of virtue. Commentary on 1 Timothy.19
Sustaining the Virtue of Quietness. Ambrose: I think the prohibition in the law against a man wearing female garments refers not so much to clothing as to manners and to our habits and actions, since one act is becoming to a man, another to a woman. Therefore, the apostle, as the interpreter of the law, says, "et your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be submissive, as the law says. But if they wish to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home."u65279 20And to Timothy he says, "et a women learn in quietness21in all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men."How unsightly it is for a man to act like a woman! Letters 78.22
2:12 I Permit No Woman to Have Authority Over Men
How Women Exercise Power. Chrysostom: The divine law indeed has excluded women from the ministry, but they endeavor to thrust themselves into it. And since they can effect nothing of themselves, they do all through the agency of others. In this way they have become invested with so much power that they can appoint or eject priests at their will. Things in fact are turned upside down, and the proverbial saying may be seen realizedâ€”u8220 Those being guided are leading the guides."One would wish that it were men who were giving such guidance, rather than women who have not received a commission to give instruction in church. Why do I say "ive instruction" The blessed Paul did not suffer them even to speak with authority in the church. But I have heard someone say that they have obtained such a large privilege of free speech as even to rebuke the prelates of the churches and censure them more severely than masters do their own domestics. On the Priesthood 3.9.23
God Says Nothing About Submissiveness Prior to the Fall. Chrysostom: For with us indeed the woman is reasonably subjected to the man, since equality of honor causes contention. And not for this cause only, but by reason also of the deceit which happened in the beginning. You see Eve was not subjected in her original condition as she was made. Nor was she called to submission when God first brought her to the man. She did not hear anything from God then about submissiveness. Nor did Adam originally say any such word to her. Rather he said indeed that she was "one of his bone, and flesh of his flesh,"u65279 24but of rule or subjection he mentioned nothing. This occurred only after she made an ill use of her privilege. She who had been made a helper was found to be an ensnarer. Then the original relation was ruined, and she was justly told for the future: "our turning shall be to your husband."u65279 25 Homilies on First Corinthians 26.2.26Theodore of Mopsuestia (c. 350â€“28). Bishop of Mopsuestia, founder of the Antiochene, or literalistic, school of exegesis. A great man in his day, he was later condemned as a precursor of Nestorius.
Ambrose of Milan (c. 333â€“97; fl. 374â€“97). Bishop of Milan and teacher of Augustine who defended the divinity of the Holy Spirit and the perpetual virginity of Mary.
John Chrysostom (344/354â€“07; fl. 386â€“07). Bishop of Constantinople who was noted for his orthodoxy, his eloquence and his attacks on Christian laxity in high places.
Here's my take on it...
A woman can preach, lead the worship, whatever as long as she has been called by God and truly believes in His word. As for the leader of the church being male, I think ultimately the leader of any church is God and He is of course male. I don't think it's for me to judge who is qualified to lead worship. If God has called a woman, it's certainly not my place to disagree with what God has done. He knows what He is doing!
All that said, we had a woman pastor at our church once and it was NOT a good experience. She was always trying to prove herself (and abolish all stereotypes) and it wound up backfiring because people thought her to be cold and uncaring. We currently have a husband and wife team leading our church. He leads 95% of the time and she steps in as needed. It's a wonderful blend of not only their marriage but of leading the church.
We do not get too have a take. We are to obey what is written! Preaching is a form a teaching and women are not allowed according to the bible to teach men. It matter not her title. She simply is not allowed to teach or preach to men. Any woman who violates this IS NOT called by God.
I can certainly have a "take" or an opinion! And that opinion comes from what I was taught in my church and from what I have gathered by reading the Bible. While it may not be what you were taught or what you get, it's what I have learned.
A woman most certainly can be called by God to preach his word! Are you saying that all women that speak of the Lord are violating the Bible? I think any person that teaches God's word and teaches about God is not in violation of the Bible regardless of their sex!
I am a woman, and I know from personal experience that God does call women to preach and teach. God has called me many times to teach a Bible class here and a Bible class there. I remember one time He called me to teach a Bible class to a group of men who were locked up in prison. These men were ecstatic to have someone care enough to teach them about the Bible. They had NO qualms about learning from a woman. At first I was very skeptical because of the whole "women keep silent" thing, however God's peace overwhelmed my heart and reassured me that I was doing what HE wanted me to do.
WOMEN KEEP SILENT
(from my book)
According to the 1983 American Heritage Dictionary, to usurp means "to seize and hold by force without legal right and authority." Any man that is willing to be taught by a woman has given her legal right and authority to do so. Therefore, she is not usurping or seizing authority by force over him. She is simply exercising her right to teach the man that is willing to learn from her. You cannot take by force something that is freely given to you.
God never intended men to be dictators or slave drivers over women. Men are to lead their wives; not drive them. "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it" (Ephesians 5:25). Jesus never disrespected or mistreated His church. He loves His church; women and all. He never drives the church. He leads it. Men are to respect women and the things that they know; not ridicule them for knowing something men may not know.
Women teach only women and children? If that be the case, what becomes of the boy child who has learned from his mother all his life? Do those teachings become null and void for him when he becomes a man? And, as a grown man is he not allowed to glean from the teachings she has spent a lifetime teaching him? Is he not allowed to learn from his mother just because she is a woman and he is now a grown man? I think not. Anyone can learn anything from anyone if they are willing.
God never intended for women to be mute. There are many men who cherish the teachings of some women. So, it all goes back to the willingness of men to give women authority to teach them. If the woman is freely given authority to teach by the appropriate man, she is not usurping authority she is accepting it.
First Timothy 2:12 says, â€œdo not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.â€ Well, we must understand that this scripture was written in an era when women were not allowed to go to school or be educated in any way. That era is now past and we must move forward. God is not stagnant. He is a God on the move. He leads forward; not backward.
Philippians 2:12, ". . . work out your own salvation with fear [/COLOR=purple]and trembling."[/COLOR]
I am NOT about to tell anyone that they "have not" heard from God. For many years people tried to tell me what I could and could not hear from God. They tried telling me to follow God, but only if it met with their approval.
Men, if you don't want to learn from a woman then don't, but please don't try to limit the men who enjoy learning from women.
Women, you are a not slave to any man. Hear from God for yourself. What is GOD telling YOU to do?
Acts 5:29, â€œ. . . We ought to obey GOD! rather than men.â€
I am not saying anything. God is.
1Timothy2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
That is what the bible says. Believe God, not men. :smile_anim:
The wink with the put down doesn't make it any less offensive.
And it's been said a million times, a person can take ANY Bible verse and bend it to suit what they are trying to say.
I am entitled to my beliefs just as you are entitled to yours. Let's just respectfully agree to disagree.
Gal 3:28,29 says There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. NKJV
For anyone who preach or teach, man or woman, it is to do it in humbleness and with the heart of a servant. That is what Jesus did. There was lots of female 'leaders' for example: Priscilla who served with her husband Aquilla, Phoebe was a deacon, and so on.
Thanks Sky. I had forgotten about these fine women leaders in the Bible. And, I had not thought about this scripture either. I guess that's why they say "two heads are better than one."
Shannon many people are offened by God's word. I am not. I stand on what He says and He says no woman is to be a Pastor/teacher or have any authority over men in the church. No exceptions. :amen: