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You have your truth? and I have my truth?

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by geralduk, Dec 28, 2015.

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  1. There is in the world today an attitude of the world that after you have told them of the penalty of sin and the love of God and loves provision .
    That people reply.. "well........................thats your truth " Implying of course you have your truth and I have mine .
    Which in turn implies that if you have your truth and I have my truth ,then every body has their truth which means no one is lying or at best mistaken.
    I see it is also creeping into the church . Where once the truth is told the reply is "well .............thats your belief"
    No professing Christian should be satisfied either in that reply or the one giving it .
    That there are so many 'versions' of the Bible does not help either for it encourages such loose thinking.
    each professing to know the truth as they see it but neither proving that it is or indeed proving the other in error .
    Why should the people of God be bothered with such a state of affairs?
    Because by God we are to be "of the same mind" and to have a "unity of the faith" there needs must then be a unity of understanding of the scriptures.
    Despite the claims then of scripture being the final authority in all matters of faith and sound doctrine . There is much lip service to that principle than there is in practice.
    In the first year of my new Christian life my pastor said to me that in the mater of being BORNagain most pastors are in agreement . But practically in all other matters there are as many opinions as there are pastors and thus churches .
    In truth while manning a good Bible book shop two theological students attending a well known theological seminar confessed to me that they were taught every mans opinion as to this matter and the other . But as I pointed out not taught the truth and how to teach it .
    It would also seem what is and has been in the pulpit is now in the pew .
    each having his own opinion or belief either according to his own mind or the theological school of thought pertaining to the particular denomination they belong to.
    The result? each theological school of thought and opinion will fight to the death for its 'position' or "ISM" as they were contending for the faith that was once and for all delivered unto the saints .
    and not only are they usually both wrong but they work havoc in the church .
    To cut a swathe through this hedge of thistles and thorns so as to get to the truth will and does take determination and grit . But must and will be done .
    If only to save those who are entangled in it than those who are determined to stay put .

    To put things in perspective .To so many opinions as to the truth .
    Jesus said who is Lord and HEAD of the church which is HIS body . That when the Holy Spirit shall come HE will lead you into all truth .
    How is it then that they who speak the truth are not heard? and they who are mistaken and need correction and reproof if need be take no heed?
    How is it that IF we all have the same Bible are are by confession of the same Spirit are not mindful then that the truth is not subject to me or to you or another . But we and all if His must or should be subject to the truth and the Spirit of truth?
    For if HE will lead us into all truth it follows you will not come to or arrive at the knowledge of the truth if you are not so led?

    and you pastors and teachers is not your job to bring all to a unity of the faith?
    That is MORE than beign BORNagain.
    For we are to be made conformable to Christ the MAN or perfect MAN not the baby who was BORN .
    and if we are in conformity to the HIM by being BORN again . Should we not then also become MEN in understanding also?
    For Paul said as to evil like little children but in understanding as men.

    In Christ
    Cturtle likes this.
  2. I think you're confusing truth with level of understanding. To a child 1+1=2 is easy to understand but a2+b2=c2 leaves them confused and reject the truth behind a2+b2=c2 because they don't understand it. The same mind is of course that regardless of what "I" believe, God is truth, and His word is truth, but my level of understanding is different than another's. It's called growth. Some are babes and can't handle the strong meat of the word of God, others swallow it whole. The same mind is to edify (build, restore, lift up) one another in love. This is where Christians fail the most by far. They have their level of understanding and refuse to believe there's more so they reject what another says that doesn't fit their self-defined limited mold about that subject. Some do not have the ability to learn the deep stuff. And you know what? God is fine with that as long as we all live in faith. There are truths we will never know about until we get to heaven, 1 Cor 13:9, 12, so we need to treat everyone with respect and if they wish to grow, help them, if they do not, judge not, because they won't understand. Jesus only got angry with the hypocrites, not the humble sinner.
    Cturtle, Major and Angela333 says Amen and like this.
  3. I suppose by what you said later that you understood I was not talking about levels of understanding and our understanding grows "line upon line precept upon precept "
    But on that point I should state that a new BORN child of God is usually full of zeal and a great desire to learn and drinks hungrily of the milk of the Word of God .
    But there always comes a time when that child of God will demand more than milk .
    But let it first be said that that child of God is not ignorant of the Spirit of God. For if they are truly BORNagain then they were LED by Him to the truth both as to the condition of their own heart and then the need for Christ and then were so led by Him to the Lord and to receive Him as Saviour and Lord .
    The Same Spirit bares witness with their spirit when they confess Christ that they are a child of God .
    and even as He bares witness to that truth so also he quickens and bares witness to the truth of the milk of the Word of God after .
    Then here comes the rub. Nearly all that is ever preached and taught is what Paul calls the milk of the Word as listed in Hebrews .and variations of the same . That is because as I mentioned before the meat and the truth of it is never taught in the seminars to budding pastors and ministers either and if all you are filled and fed with is the opinions of others then that is all you will teach.
    Every child of God then is challenged at some point whether he will sit back and be satisfied with what eh has misdirected to believe that is all there is .Just to be BORNagain. and maturity simply means gaining more biblical knowledge but little more understanding but it is expected and taught that to wander around the wilderness for 40 years is the NORM of this great salvation and new creation .
    and as you have put it we get it all in heaven but for now we must wander in the wilderness of this world . Which is not what the wilderness represents or is about .
    They only took 40 DAYS to get from Egypt to the banks of the river Jordan .
    The Lord was not in the wilderness for 40 YEARS either .
    What is the purpose of the wilderness ? it is as boot camp of an army .
    Where men become soldiers or as the scriptures put it so that they may be tried or proved and amy know that "man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God "
    That we might LEARN to WALK by this faith in God and to trust him for all our needs so that when we reach NOT heaven but the promised land we might be "more than conquerers through Him that loved us "
    They did no work of God till they crossed Jordan. If The promised land was heaven why is it written there is no work in the grave?
    and there are no giants or cities to conquer in heaven .
    The servant of elijah did no work of God till he crossed Jordan .
    Nor also the Lord himself .

    IF and I do mean IF all were led by the Holy Spirit then that which is of the Holy Spirit and taught by the Holy Spirit will or should be recognised as such .For the Holy Spirit will not contradict the Word of God nor the Word of God the Spirit .
    Thus to the level of our understanding and maturity be it as "little children " young men " or fathers" all are led in the same way to the same end to come to the same understanding in Christ .
    But a stumbling block is that the children of God are led to subject the scriptures to their own thinking and philosophy .Rather than subject the mind to Spirit of God and the Word of God .
    For no truth that we have been led to know and understand by the Holy Spirit will ever contradict any other truth that is built on it . As you pointed out it is in that regard similar to mathematics.
    Thus no matter what level of understanding we may have at present .Not only is the Holy Spirit desiring we learn and understand more the scriptures again and again say "get understanding"! and inn revelations for instance it says "make sure you understand "!
    This understanding is not dependent on intelictual ability nor on degrees nor on our 'learning'
    If we take that as our benchmark we are in danger of becoming like the pharasees who perceived Peter and John and "ignorant and unlearned men" Which they were . But they also took note "they had been with Jesus .
    30 minutes in deep communion with the Lord is worth far more than 3 years in a seminar .
    I do not say dont go to one .I say be careful to the one you go to .For many a young man full fo zeal and faith in the Lord has come out as dead as a door nail and useless in the work of God .,
    Peter was given light and understanding of who Jesus was "thou art the Christ the Son of the living God " and the Lord confirmed it .
    Yet when the Lord began to give more light as to his coming rejection ,sufering and death. Peter thought that his light was all of it and rejected the light and the truth that the Lord was leading them to understand .
    So much so that lord rebuked him as the mouthpeice of Satan where not a moment before he ahd been as it were a mouthpiece of heaven.
    Some say they honour him .but forget both his weakness ,failures and his willingness to be reproved and corrected .
    No one likes being rebuked corrected or reproved yet that is also another purpose of scripture .

    I do not believe " God is fine " when people settle back for second best or do not respond to the call . or think to eb saved or BORNagain is the be all and end all of His so "great Salavation."
    When Elijah was given a meal from heaven he only ate half of it and thought it was enough and went to sleep.
    An angel of God prodded him awake and said the journey is long you will need to eat ALL of it .
    Men are by nature lazy.
    if they can be persuaded to believe that to be only BORNagain is enough to be in the Bride .Then they will be content .
    But I suggest that God is not fine with that .
    and if men take that attitude he will stir their comfortable nest and force them to fly .
    For when eaglest get too comfortable with their parents giving them food every day and the nest is warm and comfy .They stir it up so all the sticks poke and they give them as little food as possible and get them moving .
    and spreading their wings and excersising them and then they throw them out .
    so the young eagles are forced to try their wings and as they fall and screatch in protest some find their wings .
    Others as yet do not and they bare them up on their wings back to the nest . and will keep on doing so till they learn to fly .

    in Christ
  4. Truth is the same for all.
    I think a lot of confusion rests on the differences between what is truth and what we believe in.
    Beliefs are different to each person because beliefs are not necessarily true. They are agreements we have decided upon to trust that it is true. So, if we believe in something that is not actually true, that does not make it true. . . though we may think it is.
    Cturtle and Abdicate say Amen and like this.
  5. To some degree I would agree with you .
    But you have said "they are agreements we have decided upon to TRUST it is true"
    I fear you are right here as well and to a great degree explains why people are so entrenched in error.
    The truth is not democratic . For it is neither upheld ,undermined or established by how many people 'vote' for it or agree that it is true .
    Jesus said when you KNOW the truth the truth shall make you free . Not when you trust it is true .

    If you read Pauls letters he is not trusting that the things he says is true ,But knows they are . and as he was so led to the truth so he by his letters seeks to lead us to a knowledge of the truth . For his letters are 'arguments ' as in a legal argument a lawyer might make or more exactly an appeal court judges judgment will argue either to uphold or dismiss the appeal .
    Thus if you start with the truth and with each step speak the truth you will or can if you follow the argument arrive at or come to the truth .
    Jesus said when the Spirit of truth shall come HE will lead you into all truth (as a good shepherd) and when you know the truth the truth shall make you free"
    A professor who sits on the beach and doesn't or refuses to take his shoes off .May speak about what he knows or thinks he knows as a man afar off from the truth and may speak ABOUT the sea.
    But "little children" who scream with delight and play about in the sea washing over the feet know more about the nature of the sea than any professor . They 'know' it is wet .
    Yet is there not much greater truths than that?>
    Then you get young men who are in the sea up to their loins or waist who if they were a little honest would say they are afraid somewhat . For here they begin to get some understanding of the power of the sea and it can destroy them.
    This a professor can never know .
    But there is still more to know . and if any man takes a little courage and takes his feet off the bottom and leaves what he knows and gives himself to the sea he will not only learn that that great sea of water bares him up but learning to swim finds even greater treasures.
    Now a man may become a great swimmer and swim the English channel. But no man will or can swim the pacific.
    He will need a ship.
    What sayeth the scriptures?
    There are waters up to the ankles ,waters up to the loins and waters to swim in.
    It is written "His goodness is past finding out" But they also say "OH taste and see that the Lord is Good."
    No man will plumb the depths of Gods goodness , scale the hights or measure the breadths but a man may taste and see or understand or know that God is good .
    "Unless a man eats of my flesh and drinks of my blood .............................."
    or in another place the Word of God was given to him as a "little book" and he did eat it .
    Man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God .
    A man may sit at a table full of food and trusts that it is good to eat . But he will starve to death if he does not eat of it .
    I say again then. That the truth is not democratic and it is not true because the 'majority ' believe it is true .
    In truth democracy has a fatal flaw in it and a hidden snare to the unwary and it is this.
    That if you get a majority and get a good grip and keep it in the legislative process ;or in this case theological seminars and what nots you can delude yourself into thinking the truth is what you say it is or make it and will by law or religiosity of one sort or another seek to enforce your truth on all and demand all submit to it .
    Do not Moslems all agree and trust that which they think is true?
    Does not the Roman church also and did? and does?
    What difference then is their between them save in FORM of Godliness only?
    Between all what are called the worlds faiths.
    The difference between all the worlds 'faiths' is that the Gospel IS true and can be known by all that it is .
    and all that is in scripture IS true and did not the Lord confirm it when he said "Thy Word is true"!?
    You can read through the scriptures of many who had only HEARD of God . But did not know Him.
    Job, Samuel, Gidion, Moses to name a few.
    The 400 prophets of Ahab all agreed as to what was true and staked their lives upon it .
    Yet they were all wrong and the one who did know the truth spoke it and was put in prison for doing so.
    That does not mean that every lone 'gunmen' or so called prophet speaks the truth either .
    For Mohamed is trusted to have spoken the truth but their are millions of Moslems who will perish because they believe a lie .
    But I know he was not a prophet because he contradicts every other prophet of Israel who he said he and ISLAM honours and do not do what they said .
    Ahab was a condemned man because Elijah by the Word of God had prophesied his destruction.
    The prophet of Jehosophat then was not going to contradict the Word of God by elijah not because he trusted it was true but because he knew it was true and understood that it was true and prophesied accordingly.
    The weight of evidence alone then is against this man they call a prophet but is not of God . Though he was a messenger of the devil.
    What more can one say .
    We are born one at a time and God deals with us one at a time and I am not you nor you I .
    nevertheless if we are His we are the sheep of his pasture and we shall NOT walk in darkness but walk in the light of life"
    if our faith then is in what the majority believes we are in trouble.
    I do not say a man should be some lone ranger and should not see if what others have thought is in line with his own thinking.
    But that is not by every mans thinking or measure against every mans opinion .
    But it is by Godly men measuring Godly words by other Godly men. Not with professors of religion.
    Paul said he was taught by God and not by men .Yet he still went to Jerusalem to visit those who had a name of "being somebody " to see if he had preached in vain .Yet he said "they added nothing to me ................"
    He knew the truth .
    It perhaps took those three and half years in the Arabian desert to get his head sorted out and all that scripture he knew of in the right order and rightly divided and to throw off the denominational thinking of his own order of the Pharassees .Who had a zeal but with no knowledge .
    THEN he began to work .
    So what a man may believe or 'trust' to be true may indeed be true but he has only heard it and does not see it or know that it is true or not.
    "by the Spirit of truth we do know the spirit of error."
    in Christ
    Cturtle likes this.
  6. Hello gerald.
    There are different degrees of truth, depending how deep a person's faith allows them to go. The word of God is like a two-edged sword that penetrates through all deception. In other words, the truth Jesus is teaching is the truth of salvation from fear and deception. It is fear that creates deception (untruths), and it is unconditional love that creates truth. By unconditionally loving the Love that loves us, Truth becomes us. The Spirit of Truth engulfs us. As long as we are obedient to loving the Love that loves us, we become true, the way, and the life - like sons of God.

    Because we are humans living among humans, obedience to truth can be challenging, but doable.
    I once told a cyclist friend that I cannot race at an average speed of 40 km per hour. He said, 'yes you can, follow me'. So of we went, and raised the speed to 40 km per hour, but I soon ran out of breath and slowed down out of exhaustion. I said, "you see, I can't do it," He said, "You did do it for for a short time, all you need to do now is stretch it out."
  7. Even if a belief may seem to be pious or holy in your eyes or in men, but, if it's not God's law that belief or doctrine is futile.
    (Colossians 2:23)“Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their selfimposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.” NIV

    Following man’s thoughts, ideas, and teachings will make your worship or religion vain
    (Mark 7:7-8)Howbeit in vain do they worship me,teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.For laying aside the commandment of God,ye hold the tradition of men,as the washing of pots and cups:and many other such like things ye do.”

    God wants us to learn from his words not by invented belief of men
    II TIMOTHY 3:15
    And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    We should not go beyond what is written.Anybody who will add or take away one of these least commandments written in the book shall perish.
    What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

    REVELATION 22:19
    And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    Abdicate likes this.
  8. "There are waters up to the ankles ,waters up to the loins and waters to swim in"
    But it is not Gods will that we stay in the shallows .But to learn to swim.
    It is not Gods will that we enter the tabernacle and stay in the outer court and the place of 'salvation' to be BORN again.
    It is Gods will that we become "kings and priests unto God"
    and thus enter the Holy place .
    The day is coming and is nearer than we think that "if it was possible even the very elect will be deceived"
    That means that the deceptions will be of such subtlety that it will be nigh on impossible to detect save by the Holy Spirit of God .
    There is the elect ,and the very elect .
    Many boast in their election rather than in the Lord . Yet forget what the scriptures say "make your election sure"
    We are like Abraham our father to GROW in grace and in the knowledge of God and like him our faith is to grow from the smallest of all herbs as a mustard seed to the greatest of all herbs .
    Just because you can move a mountain by a faith as small as a mustard seed does not mean we are not expected to grow in faith .
    In truth Peter who walked on water was reproved by the Lord who said " ye of little faith"!
    I would agree with you ,the truth is challenging . But who is it that worketh with in us both to DO and to will ?
    The Lord was challenged a lot and for me one of the worst in my eyes was the woman caught in adultery .
    For there the Lord was faced with an impossible choice .
    For the law does state she should be stoned to death .
    Yet he also had stated that he came not to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved.
    His answer was provided for in the night before in the last couple of verses of chapter 7 .
    Where every one went to his own house ,But he went up the mountain to pray .
    There lies the secret.
    and what was done on the mountain prepared him for the valley.

    in Christ
    Cturtle likes this.
  9. All well and good . But it also needs the practical application . Both to speaking that which is true and" contending for the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints"
    as also refuting error .
    For while we may judge and condemn the church of Rome in its errors .It seems we are blind to the errors that have become so well established in what are called protestant churches and its bank of man made traditions .
    Truly the lord is outside the church knocking on its door ...............

    in Christ
  10. Amen!! Well said! (y) (y) There are a lot of "things" we must unlearn from men, and replace with the word of God. I remember when I realized that not one wise man was at the birth of Christ, Matt 2:11! I was totally shocked because I grew up with the "nativity scene" with the 3 wise men. There were only 3 types of gifts, number and name of the men is not given. And what makes them wise if they travel with all those very expensive items without security, then just like today? ;)
  11. There is more.
    Not only is that dubious as to the number . A careful reading of scripture will show that they did not come to the babe in the manger but "to the CHILD" in the HOUSE .
    and it took them nearly two years to arrive there from the place they started from and "first saw the star"
    The nativity seen was dreamed up I understand by Francis of Assisi.
    The trouble with images is they mix truth with error at best .
    At worse they lie .

    in Christ
  12. Yep! That's why I quoted Mat 2:11. Also the star wasn't a star but a sign for them alone, for a star cannot land on a child unless it's a meteor which then promptly kills the recipient. I love Francis of Assisi! In his original nativity he only had Jesus, Mary and Joseph on hay. Others brought in the animals. Over time, others threw in the wise men. As with most catholic claims, he was non-denominational and was never ordained as anything. He did ask the Pope to accept his followers so as to bypass conflict with them politically. His life is an example to us and was moved by Mat 10 as I was. He ran a leper colony and never got the disease. Since he lived in the early 1200's people have added and taken credit for many of his works. Just like Augustus of Hippo. Just because one denomination claims the acts of a historical figure doesn't make them part of that denomination. John of Assisi (his real name) is a great example of Christian love.
  13. Yes. Biblically speaking the wise men (not the three kings) followed a star (not hanging on a “tree” because there was no tree associated with the birth of Jesus) to locate the baby Jesus on a house and not on a manger because no loving parents would let their new-born baby to tarry on manger. They eventually moved to a house as the crowd that came to Bethlehem who filled all the inns during the height of the census period presumably have turned back home.

    Matthew 2:9-11
    9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
    10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
    11 And when they were
    come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
  14. The scriptures says a star and so a star it was . Where does it say it 'landed ' on Jesus?
    What the scriptures say is 2.......and lo the star , which they saw in the east went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was "
    On reading it there is the suggestion they did not need to follow the star from the east to Jerusalem but seeing the star in the east understood that as it was speaking of the "the king of the Jews" Jerusalem was the place to go ,saying where is he born king of the Jews"
    It was only after seeing Herod that they departed and seeing the star the saw in the east (once again?) they rejoiced with exceeding great joy and THEN it led them to Bethlehem.
    What sort of star is another matter .
    That it was seen in the night sky or rather was bright enough to be seen during the day as well does not mean that others could not see it .But simply did not understand the sign of it.
    For stars as well as the sun and moon were given for signs and times and seasons .
    What is I think a more interesting thing is where "from the east" does it take up to 2 years to get to the middle east .
    The usual middle eastern or 'known' magi would not fit the time table as being too near and are to some extent from the 'west'.
    The stood over the house where the child was .It did not land on Jesus .

    as for Francis of Assisi the grip of Rome was such that he could not form a monastic order without Romes 'blessing' .
    But I do not have much store in any of what are called the 'church fathers' on the simple grounds that those who do rarely it seems hold as much store on THE fathers of the church as it were in scripture!
    So even Augustine I treat very lightly if at all who came to convert England . Despite the fact there had been a church in England planted since the gospel reached these shores within a hundred years of the death burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem . Thus what it meant by 'conversion' was to the Roman church ways rather than to God . It has been doing that ever since.
    The foundations then of this nations freedom were laid 2000 years ago . They were finally established at the reformation.
    So while there is wheat among the chaff .For me I prefer to go to the source which is far more reliable .
    and if you read rev 2 you will read the corruption as it were of the church .
    The first which LEFT its first love open the door to the WORKS then the DOCTRINES of the Nicolaitans which first began as a practice then became a doctrine which you had to believe .
    That is both the "lording" over the sheep by the ministers and then the priesthoods of Rome which is the western orthodox and the eastern orthodox which in turn are the two legs of the once political empire that then became a religious empire after the fall of the other .
    Once the priesthood had been established and the peoples subject to it then you have false doctrine entering the church the doctrine of Baalam (still in attendance ) then the things of Jezebel the seduction of the servants of God to commit fornication which is idolitory .
    till we come to the last church that in its own eyes is rich increased with goods and in need of nothing . the fruit of the seductive prosperity message perhaps.?
    But in the Lords eyes were poor wretched and blind and did not know it .
    The church that was in its own eyes " poor " was in the Lords eyes "rich" and would suffer persecution.
    So then so now .
    By the time of the reformation the church of the book of Acts was as it were dead and buried as a seed is buried and dies .But bringeth forth fruit after its own kind.
    When Luthors eyes were opened to see that "the just shall lie by faith" That was the first shoot of the seed of the church . Which like all seedlings has some of the earth still attached to it .
    each new move forward by God which gave understanding to the church led to its growth and development but also led to each denomination being formed because like those who built the tower of Babel thought " to make a name for themselves" and or like Peter who was given light as to who the Lord was thought it was all the light and when the Lord began to give more light he rejected it or stood against it .
    Thus while each denomination that can be called 'protestant' has a part of the truth and has kept it to some extent they have not gone or moved forward any further than when they first received it .
    Nevertheless the church which is His bride has grown up within the the general body of the church .
    But we digress a great deal .
    The star and the nature of it then is a minor matter and for me only interesting as to what the scriptures DO say about it in the light and timing of the birth of Christ.
    Personally I think it is the reason why at root, all the ancient civilisations were so interested in astronomy . For despite modern thinking they all knew about the Jews even then .For the "WHOLE WORLD " says scriptures heard about Gods dealing and deliverance from Egypt .
    But also knew about the promise in the garden of Eden but corrupted it,
    But it is of no 'import' or has much bearing on today save that all that was sown in the first book has its fullfilment and fruit in the last book .

    in Christ
  15. Where was there any mention of hanging on a tree!?
    Herod "diligently asked when they first saw the star "
    Which is why he then later killed every child "two years and under" Not what would be 'reasonable' of 6 months and under if he had been but recently born .
    The celebration then of the birth of He who was BORN king of the Jews is not to be condemned as it but echos the rejoicing of all at the time who rejoiced also .
    Those who set their own righteousness upon the errors of others to justify their own are in as much error as those they condemn .

    in Christ
  16. Thus a huge reason why to be very sensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading, and hearing correctly what He says so that one can take the truth of the Word and speak, teach or explain to others in such a way that they can understand it.

    God bless!
    Abdicate likes this.
  17. Anyone that knows anything about astronomy knows that a star cannot stand over anyone to be able to identify them over the guy next to him, nor a house over the one next to it, or even a city over another. Pick a star some nice and follow it. It wasn't a star like our sun, or a comet like Haley, but a supernatural event, something specific to just the wise men, like the shepherds witnessing the angles and glory of God in the heaven. It was specific to them alone. The wisemen had a mission, to give the poor family the means to flee to Egypt until Herod dies, fulfilling the scriptures. They may have known or not known what they were doing, but they followed God's bidding. I find it amazing that people will believe a normal event when it was all but normal, but supernatural, diminishing the power of God to get foreigners to fund His Son's needs. Was there no one in all of Israel obedient to God He could call upon? What a sad story.
  18. As I agree with most of what you said...I don't believe they were poor. They had the money to do everything that God led them to do. They were already in a house (Matthew 2:11), when the wisemen came to visit them and bless them with gifts.

    God bless
  19. "To them that look for Him shall he appear " What will apply at the second coming also applied to the first .
    For many new the scriptures even those of Herod who correctly found that he who was to be BORN king of the Jews would be born in Bethlehem,. But were not lookign for him, For they believed not.
    The secret of the Lord is with those that fear Him.
    You suggest we/man knows much about astronomy ? I would say we know very little and not enough to assume it was not a star.
    having said that stars are often used a symbols for other things .
    The scriptures seem to say that they saw the star in the east and as it related to the King of the JEWS then Jerusalem which was know in the far east via the silk roads was and could be found without the star .
    That it was next seen when leaving Jerusalem suggest more.
    But as I said Im not going to make a mountain out of it .Because the scriptures do not.
    Nor would I diminish God by still ascribing it to a star .
    A subject of stars in the bible and indeed the sun and the moon will be a very fruitful yeild to any one who takes the time to study the subject .
    From the begining to the end of the Bible.
    and I would even venture to say would instruct many an astronomor not only of the past and the present but also as to what si to come .
    For a third of the stars will fall from the sky.
    The moon into blood.
    The earth will stagger like a drunken man
    God is as intimately involved in the stars (he knows "all their names") as he is with the earth the sun and the moon.
    I can understand a celestial body on an orbit that came by but once in 4000 years? and would still be a supernatural event because of the timing .
    But as I said in these matters the scripture speaks little .So will I then .and I would not wish to contend on conjecture .
    What sort of star it was would need more study for me .

    in Christ
  20. Joseph was a carpenter .Always in need and could find employment .
    whether he was established to that extent in less than two years to have been able to pay for the trip and domicile in Egypt is a moot point.
    But God is able to meet whatever need we have to do his will.

    In Christ
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