Will We Know Our Loved Ones In Heaven?

Excellent conversation.!! Good thoughts!
Mere sentimentalism ignores the Bible’s teaching which bears on the issue. We have no right to establish doctrine on the basis of what we hope may be true. We must draw our answers from what the Bible reveals to be true.
The Bible clearly teaches that we are born in sin and that God will not tolerate sinners. God has made one absolute and definitive provision for our salvation through the substitutionary atonement accomplished by Jesus Christ our Lord. Salvation comes to those who believe on His name and confess him as Savior. The Bible teaches a dual destiny for the human race. The redeemed – those who are in Christ – will be raised to eternal life with the Father in Heaven. Those who have not believed in Christ and confessed Him as Lord will suffer eternal punishment in the fires of Hell. Universalism is a dangerous and unbiblical teaching. It offers a false promise and denies the Gospel. I believe that to be true with every fiber of my body and soul.
The Bible reveals that we are born marked by original sin, and thus we cannot claim that infants are born in a state of innocence. Any biblical answer to the question of infant salvation must start from the understanding that infants are born with a sin nature. HOWEVER, The shifting of the focus to election actually avoids answering the question IMHO. We owe the parents of those dear infants a better explination that that when they come to us broken hearted over their loss. Theological "Bible speak" simply will not do in this particular case........believe me, I know because I have been there!!!Those who divide infants into the elect and non-elect seek to affirm the clear and undeniable doctrine of divine election. The Bible teaches that God elects persons to salvation from eternity, and that our salvation is all of grace. At first glance, this position appears impregnable in relation to the issue of infant salvation – a simple statement of the obvious. A second glance, however, reveals a significant evasion. What if all who die in infancy are among the elect? Do we have a biblical basis for believing that all persons who die in infancy are among the elect?
I believe that Scripture does indeed teach that all persons who die in infancy are among the elect. This must not be based only in our hope that it is true, but in a careful reading of the Bible. We start with the biblical affirmations we have noted already.
First: the Bible reveals that we are "brought forth in iniquity," and thus bear the stain of original sin from the moment of our conception. Thus, we face squarely the sin problem.
Second: we acknowledge that God is absolutely sovereign in salvation. We do not deserve salvation, and can do nothing to earn our salvation, and thus it is all of grace. Further we understand that our salvation is established by God’s election of sinners to salvation through Christ.
Third: we affirm that Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ is the sole and sufficient Savior, and that salvation comes only on the basis of His blood atonement. Fourth, we affirm that the Bible teaches a dual eternal destiny – the redeemed to Heaven, the unredeemed to Hell.

What, then is the basis for claiming that all those who die in infancy are among the elect?
First: the Bible teaches that we are to be judged on the basis of our deeds committed "in the body." That is, we will face the judgment seat of Christ and be judged, not on the basis of original sin, but for our sins committed during our own lifetimes. Each will answer "according to what he has done," and not for the sin of Adam. The imputation of Adam’s sin and guilt explains our inability to respond to God without regeneration, but the Bible does not teach that we will answer for Adam’s sin. We will answer for our own. But what about infants? Have those who die in infancy committed such sins in the body? I don't think so!!!.Is there Biblical examples of this. I have already spoken to David and Bathsheba's child. but there is more than that. After the children of Israel rebelled against God in the wilderness, God sentenced that generation to die in the wilderness after forty years of wandering. "Not one of these men, this evil generation, shall see the good land which I swore to give your fathers." But this was not all. God specifically exempted young children and infants from this sentence, and even explained why He did so: "Moreover, your little ones who you said would become prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good and evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it." The key issue here is that God specifically exempted from the judgment those who "have no knowledge of good or evil" because of their age. These "little ones" would inherit the Promised Land, and would not be judged on the basis of their fathers’ sins.
I believe that this passage bears directly on the issue of infant salvation, and that the accomplished work of Christ has removed the stain of original sin from those who die in infancy. Knowing neither good nor evil, these young children are incapable of committing sins in the body – are not yet moral agents – and die secure in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John Newton, the great minister who wrote the hymn Amazing Grace was certain of this truth. He wrote to close friends who had lost a young child: "I hope you are both well reconciled to the death of your child. I cannot be sorry for the death of infants. How many storms do they escape! Nor can I doubt, in my private judgment, that they are included in the election of grace." The great Princeton theologians Charles Hodge and B. B. Warfield held the same position.
One of the most eloquent and powerful expressions of this understanding of infant salvation came from the heart of Charles Spurgeon. Preaching to his own congregation, Spurgeon consoled grieving parents:
"Now, let every mother and father here present know assuredly that it is well with the child, if God hath taken it away from you in its infant days." Spurgeon turned this conviction into an evangelistic call. "Many of you are parents who have children in heaven. Is it not a desirable thing that you should go there, too? (Isn't this exactly what David said in 2 Samuel) He continued: "Mother, unconverted mother, from the battlements of heaven your child beckons you to Paradise. Father, ungodly, impenitent father, the little eyes that once looked joyously on you, look down upon you now, and the lips which scarcely learned to call you father, ere they were sealed by the silence of death, may be heard as with a still small voice, saying to you this morning, ‘Father, must we be forever divided by the great gulf which no man can pass?’ Doth not nature itself put a sort of longing in your soul that you may be bound in the bundle of life with your own children?"

No one is seeking to affirm the doctrine of election. I am saying that is the answer to this problem. The Scriptures in John indicate that before we are born we are Gods or we are not.

I fail to see anything in your comparrison of the children of Israel not being punished for the sin of unbelief, as their parents were, pertaining to all children being elect. You are confusing the illustration of Israel, or types, whichever you want to call it. Israel as a nation is already redeemed. That occurs at the Passover. She is baptized in the Sea. 1Cor.10:1-10 Entrance into the promised land is not a picture of heaven. There are wars to be fought in this promised land. In heaven we are not going to be fighting any wars. The promised land is a picture of the Christian or believer coming into his possissions that God wants for him here. Victorious living. War is a part of that. So, the generation that did not commit the sin of unbelief was part of the saved just as those who did commit the sin of unbelief. These sins do not affect ones eternal destiny. That was already settled. Thus being ignorant of good or evil at this point is not the point as far as election goes. It is the point as far as believers committing sins at this time.

Perhaps I misunderstand when you say 'we will answer for our own'. In dying for Adams sin Christ died for all sins.

Ginger pointed out that God loved Jacob before he was even born. Its also true that God hated Esau before he was born. Rom. 9:10-13. Why? Because God knew who he was.

Quantrill
 
No one is seeking to affirm the doctrine of election. I am saying that is the answer to this problem. The Scriptures in John indicate that before we are born we are Gods or we are not.

I fail to see anything in your comparrison of the children of Israel not being punished for the sin of unbelief, as their parents were, pertaining to all children being elect. You are confusing the illustration of Israel, or types, whichever you want to call it. Israel as a nation is already redeemed. That occurs at the Passover. She is baptized in the Sea. 1Cor.10:1-10 Entrance into the promised land is not a picture of heaven. There are wars to be fought in this promised land. In heaven we are not going to be fighting any wars. The promised land is a picture of the Christian or believer coming into his possissions that God wants for him here. Victorious living. War is a part of that. So, the generation that did not commit the sin of unbelief was part of the saved just as those who did commit the sin of unbelief. These sins do not affect ones eternal destiny. That was already settled. Thus being ignorant of good or evil at this point is not the point as far as election goes. It is the point as far as believers committing sins at this time.

Perhaps I misunderstand when you say 'we will answer for our own'. In dying for Adams sin Christ died for all sins.

Ginger pointed out that God loved Jacob before he was even born. Its also true that God hated Esau before he was born. Rom. 9:10-13. Why? Because God knew who he was.

Quantrill

No, my friend, the things in the Old Test ARE EXAMPLES for us. They are pictures of things to come. Unless we are careful, the history of Israel will be duplicated in our own lives and experiences.
The Lord has "caused his wonders to be remembered" (Psa.111:4).

I believe that you have taken the example of Israel out of context in the verses you posted from 1 Corin. The passage says that Isreal PASSED THROUGH THE SEA, not "BAPTIZED".
Then the Scriptures say that "ALL WERE BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES. PASSING THROUGH THE SEA is a referance to divine deliverance and ALL BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES is a referance to those people being immersed in Moses' authority.

Then we will have to leave each to his own understanding of this particular problem to which the Spirit of God has taught us.

May the Lord richly bless you.
 
So, this is about comforting people? Comforting others is an act of compassion....all very well, but we must be darn certain we put truth first. For if we teach lies, we condemn ourselves as we lead others astray and our "good" intentions will not save us.

So far I agree - this is possible.

I believe the rest, you are choosing what you want these verses to mean and disregarding others.

If you are right, then you just made my entire life meaningless. There was absolutely no reason for any of the things I experienced. I would have been blessed to be aborted, and spared much pointless suffering.

In fact, all our lives are pointless, if what you say is true.

I can accept the idea all babies go to heaven, but not on the basis being innocent.

"chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience” (1 Pet 1:2, NASB).
Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jer 1:4-5).
The Lord “loved” Jacob before he was born, or had done any good or evil (Rom 10:11-13)

As for judging by our deeds, that has absolutely nothing to do with salvation! The law was given so we would have no excuse!...not so those who obey to be given salvation.

Those who are saved will be judged according to the good works God does thru their willing hands and those who are perishing will indeed be judged according to the evil they chiose thru their rejection of God.

If someone lives to be 100 and never commits a sin, but persistantly does good deeds even tho he rejects God, he will still perish!!!! Because he is condemned even without committing a personal sin. So, why should it be any different for the one who only lives 100 days?

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. - Romans 5:14

I lost a child and I trust that child is in heaven because of Jesus and this and other promises:

Pro 22:

6 Train up a child in the way he should go;
even when he is old he will not depart from it.
If we want to ensure our children's salvation according to the grace of God, then we need to take responsibility by setting a good example in our daily lives and insuring our children our given proper instruction in the faith. If we do our part, God is always faithful to keep His promises.

Since God knows our hearts and the future, I think it's likely He gives us saved children so we do not have to suffer such a horrendous loss. Like you said, at the beginning of your post, maybe only those who are saved die young????

The point is there are many possibilities for all children going to heaven, but it's the same way the rest of us enter AND there are no babies in heaven nor hell. I don't believe souls have age as do physical bodies that perish.

Ginger

Good points.

I am so very sorry you feel as you do when you said..........."If you are right, then you just made my entire life meaningless."
That is very distressing to me. Discussion over these things should not lead anyone to that kind of conclusion. I apologize if our differances over this is the cause of that feeling.
Because of that I feel we need not to continue discusssing this differance.

A lot of us have lost a child.

NO it is not about comfort over truth. It is the application of truth where the love of God shows forth in His compassion for his children.

I do not see this changing what we believe to be true. It is a difficult subject, if not the MOST difficult to grasp. You are just as entrenched in your belief as I am in mine so I believe I will leave it there.

God bless you!
 
No, my friend, the things in the Old Test ARE EXAMPLES for us. They are pictures of things to come. Unless we are careful, the history of Israel will be duplicated in our own lives and experiences.
The Lord has "caused his wonders to be remembered" (Psa.111:4).

I believe that you have taken the example of Israel out of context in the verses you posted from 1 Corin. The passage says that Isreal PASSED THROUGH THE SEA, not "BAPTIZED".
Then the Scriptures say that "ALL WERE BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES. PASSING THROUGH THE SEA is a referance to divine deliverance and ALL BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES is a referance to those people being immersed in Moses' authority.

Then we will have to leave each to his own understanding of this particular problem to which the Spirit of God has taught us.

May the Lord richly bless you.

Yes the Old Testment gives us examples. I never said it didn't. I did say your example was wrong. That which was an example of victorious living here and now, you were making as an example of heaven. Which in turn, made your use of the sins of unbelief, and the knowledge of good and evil, wrong. Which in turn, makes your use of this as proof, for all infants going to heaven, equally wrong.

Yes they were baptized unto Moses, but they still were baptized in the sea. Israel passed through the baptismal waters of the sea. And were baptised unto Moses.

1Cor.10:1-2 ....all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the clouid and in the sea. "

Quantrill
 
Yes the Old Testment gives us examples. I never said it didn't. I did say your example was wrong. That which was an example of victorious living here and now, you were making as an example of heaven. Which in turn, made your use of the sins of unbelief, and the knowledge of good and evil, wrong. Which in turn, makes your use of this as proof, for all infants going to heaven, equally wrong.

Yes they were baptized unto Moses, but they still were baptized in the sea. Israel passed through the baptismal waters of the sea. And were baptised unto Moses.

1Cor.10:1-2 ....all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the clouid and in the sea. "

Quantrill
Speaking of being wrong!
Please post the Scriptures where the people were baptized in the sea???
"Passed through the sea" does NOT refer to baptism but speaks of the miracle of deliverance from the Egyptians who were trying to kill them (Ex. 14:21-28).
The "BAPTISM UNTO MOSES" was not a baptism ceremonial service at the Red sea. The Scriptural fact is that they in fact did not get wet my friend!!! They went throught the Red Sea on DRY ground so they did not get wet or baptized IF that is your opinion. The baptism referred to here is IDENTIFICATION with Moses.
Hebrews 11:29
"By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned".
By FAITH they passed through.. Their faith?? NO!!! The faith of Moses and they IDENTIFIED with him.
It is your opinion that the example used was wrong. My opinion is that it was not wrong but in fact was correct and even more so.
If you are wrong on the baptism in the sea why do you think you are correct in your opinion of my example.
And just so you know, the example I used came from Dr. J. Vernon McGee and Dr. Harold Walvoord in their publications so I will stand with them in who is right or wrong.
This is exactly why I wanted to disengage from this because I knew it was going to lead to a confrontation.
Again..............let us agree to disagree and leave it at that shall we???
 
Speaking of being wrong!
Please post the Scriptures where the people were baptized in the sea???
"Passed through the sea" does NOT refer to baptism but speaks of the miracle of deliverance from the Egyptians who were trying to kill them (Ex. 14:21-28).
The "BAPTISM UNTO MOSES" was not a baptism ceremonial service at the Red sea. The Scriptural fact is that they in fact did not get wet my friend!!! They went throught the Red Sea on DRY ground so they did not get wet or baptized IF that is your opinion. The baptism referred to here is IDENTIFICATION with Moses.
Hebrews 11:29
"By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned".
By FAITH they passed through.. Their faith?? NO!!! The faith of Moses and they IDENTIFIED with him.
It is your opinion that the example used was wrong. My opinion is that it was not wrong but in fact was correct and even more so.
If you are wrong on the baptism in the sea why do you think you are correct in your opinion of my example.
And just so you know, the example I used came from Dr. J. Vernon McGee and Dr. Harold Walvoord in their publications so I will stand with them in who is right or wrong.
This is exactly why I wanted to disengage from this because I knew it was going to lead to a confrontation.
Again..............let us agree to disagree and leave it at that shall we???


I did give the Scripture. 1Cor. 10:1-2.

Well, in Gods eyes it was a baptism for Israel. See again the Scripture reference.

It doesn't matter who they identified with in the baptism. The point is it was a baptism. They are a picture, of a redeemed nation. The promised land they are going to is not a picture of heaven, but of the victorious Christian life here on earth. Which envolves faith, war, and struggles. Which means, as I said before, the lack of knowledge of good and evil of the younger, for which reason they were not judged, pertained to their present and earthly condition. It does not reflect on their election. In other words the example you used does not prove all infants when they die go to heaven.

Its a forum isn't it? The purpose is to debate and confront. I can agree that we disagree. But, I can also debate the issue. Your example to be valid must have the promised land to which the Israelites were going, as a picture of heaven. So explain the wars, struggles, and failures in heaven.

Quantrill
 
I did give the Scripture. 1Cor. 10:1-2.

Well, in Gods eyes it was a baptism for Israel. See again the Scripture reference.

It doesn't matter who they identified with in the baptism. The point is it was a baptism. They are a picture, of a redeemed nation. The promised land they are going to is not a picture of heaven, but of the victorious Christian life here on earth. Which envolves faith, war, and struggles. Which means, as I said before, the lack of knowledge of good and evil of the younger, for which reason they were not judged, pertained to their present and earthly condition. It does not reflect on their election. In other words the example you used does not prove all infants when they die go to heaven.

Its a forum isn't it? The purpose is to debate and confront. I can agree that we disagree. But, I can also debate the issue. Your example to be valid must have the promised land to which the Israelites were going, as a picture of heaven. So explain the wars, struggles, and failures in heaven.

Quantrill

Not a problem.
Your idea of 1 Corth. being water baptism simply is in-correct as I stated to you. NO water was involved and the phrase does not apply. No need to see the Scriptures again to know that.

It absolutly matters who they identified with. Everyone else but Moses wanted to go back to Egypt my friend. It was the FAITH OF MOSES!!!

I agree that the Promised Land had to be POSSESESD after God gave it to them.

You said........................
"Your example to be valid must have the promised land to which the Israelites were going, as a picture of heaven."

But I did not say that. I said..................................
After the children of Israel rebelled against God in the wilderness, God sentenced that generation to die in the wilderness after forty years of wandering. "Not one of these men, this evil generation, shall see the good land which I swore to give your fathers." But this was not all. God specifically exempted young children and infants from this sentence, and even explained why He did so: "Moreover, your little ones who you said would become prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good and evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it." The key issue here is that God specifically exempted from the judgment those who "have no knowledge of good or evil" because of their age. These "little ones" would inherit the Promised Land, and would not be judged on the basis of their fathers’ sins.

I did not mention heaven as being the same as the Promised Land.

Heaven is the Christian’s promised land. It is a wonderful place, promising rest, peace and fellowship with God. Canaan promised the same to the weary wanderers but the Promised Land is for the Nation of Israel not the church.

What He told them in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy is in the Bible for us to know and study. It gives us pictures, types so as to be an example for us to learn by. Through Moses, God brought the Israelites out of the bondage of slavery. Through Jesus, God brings us out of the bondage of sin. God told them all along what to do to become free and saved. He does the same for us. Their journey was taken in faith. So is ours. When they camped, God told them to put the Tabernacle in the center: God should be the center of our lives also.
 
Not a problem.
Your idea of 1 Corth. being water baptism simply is in-correct as I stated to you. NO water was involved and the phrase does not apply. No need to see the Scriptures again to know that.

It absolutly matters who they identified with. Everyone else but Moses wanted to go back to Egypt my friend. It was the FAITH OF MOSES!!!

I agree that the Promised Land had to be POSSESESD after God gave it to them.

You said........................
"Your example to be valid must have the promised land to which the Israelites were going, as a picture of heaven."

But I did not say that. I said..................................
After the children of Israel rebelled against God in the wilderness, God sentenced that generation to die in the wilderness after forty years of wandering. "Not one of these men, this evil generation, shall see the good land which I swore to give your fathers." But this was not all. God specifically exempted young children and infants from this sentence, and even explained why He did so: "Moreover, your little ones who you said would become prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good and evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it." The key issue here is that God specifically exempted from the judgment those who "have no knowledge of good or evil" because of their age. These "little ones" would inherit the Promised Land, and would not be judged on the basis of their fathers’ sins.

I did not mention heaven as being the same as the Promised Land.

Heaven is the Christian’s promised land. It is a wonderful place, promising rest, peace and fellowship with God. Canaan promised the same to the weary wanderers but the Promised Land is for the Nation of Israel not the church.

What He told them in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy is in the Bible for us to know and study. It gives us pictures, types so as to be an example for us to learn by. Through Moses, God brought the Israelites out of the bondage of slavery. Through Jesus, God brings us out of the bondage of sin. God told them all along what to do to become free and saved. He does the same for us. Their journey was taken in faith. So is ours. When they camped, God told them to put the Tabernacle in the center: God should be the center of our lives also.

Its not my phrase. Its Scripture. God says they passed through the sea. God says they were all baptized. God says they were all baptized in the cloud and in the sea. God says they were baptized unto Moses. Its a baptism. 1Cor. 10:1-2

Just because they were baptized unto Moses does not negate their baptism. Remember Johns disciples whom he baptized. They answered Paul, "And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism." Acts 19:3 Being baptized unto John didn't negate their baptism.

As Israel they were a saved nation. Saved at the Passover. Thus that month was their begining. They were already redeemed. Baptized later in the cloud and in the sea. Thus the sins you see in them, are sins of believers. Except for the mixed multitude, who were never saved. The only way your example of infants all going to heaven on the basis of their ignorance of good or evil spoken of in Deuteronomy, is if the promised land is heaven; If Israel as a nation is not yet redeemed; If their redeemption is based on their sucess or failure to enter the promised land. Only then will your 'example' work. But as you know, this is not the case.

You said that it pertained to infant salvation. Your post #38 "These 'little ones' would inheirit the Promised Land, and would not be judged on the basis of the Fathers sins. I believe that this passage bears directly on the issue of infant salvation." How could it bear on infant salvation if the Promised Land is not Heaven? And if the promised land is not heaven, then it does not bear on infant salvation.

You can call heaven the promised land. But the promised land for Israel in the Old Testament, pertains to Palestine. It is not heaven. It is the land promised whereby Israel will fight, die, exercise faith, sin, rebel, etc. etc. The sins of the fathers wouldn't let them in. The ignorance of the infants kept them free from the judgement of God against the fathers. Free now to enter, not heaven, but the promised land. Where you will see them fail many times also.

Quantrill
 
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