Will We Know Our Loved Ones In Heaven?
- Thread starter Major
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Revelation. 22:12 .....
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
How or why would God reward or punish someone who has no memory of his human life back on earth, and who has no idea what he is being rewarded or punished for?
He isn't because there are too many verses in the Bible that tell us that this is not going to happen. A good example of this is Romans 14:12 which takes place during the final judgment. As the books are opened and judgment is about to take place, all minds remember all sin.
Romans 14:12 says..............
"So then each of us shall give account of himself to God."
Each and every sin, ever committed, will be crystal clear just as if it was committed only seconds ago. There will be no doubt in anyone's mind whether or not a certain sin was ever committed. And you have to admit that many of those sins would have been committed against family members.
In none of the above verses does the Bible say that we will definitely recognize each other, but you must admit that those verses certainly indicate that we will have the same recognizable, but improved body along with a supernatural mind and a memory to go with it. God is not going to reward or punish another different replacement body, for the things you did while in your earthly body. The above verses definitely indicate that we will have the knowledge of all that we did while alive on earth and we will be rewarded or punished accordingly.
You can actually break the question of, will we know each other in heaven, down even further by asking about our faculties on the other side of the grave. Will we remember our past, those in our past, and all of our actions and deeds in the past, because this is the real issue: Will we retain all our faculties on the other side of death? YES!!! There are several Bible passages that confirm just that fact!
Yes we most certainly will! We will know every one of our brothers and sisters!
While there appears to be recognition in heaven, we know certain relationships will not continue. "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven," Jesus taught (Matt. 22: 30, see also vss. 23-32). Hence, two who were husband and wife in this life will not function as husband and wife in heaven. Such, though, does not necessarily preclude the recognition of husband and wife.
While there appears to be recognition in heaven, we know certain relationships will not continue. "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven," Jesus taught (Matt. 22: 30, see also vss. 23-32). Hence, two who were husband and wife in this life will not function as husband and wife in heaven. Such, though, does not necessarily preclude the recognition of husband and wife.
I don't know.... I like to picture it in my mind as what child could possibly resist Jesus? If you picture Jesus coming to a small child, can you, even if you try, imagine anything but that child being thrilled?
I just don't have the answers. The only thing I feel certain about is God is just and merciful and I have no right to question His decisions
and there are no infants, toddlers nor small children in hell.
But I still absolutely reject the idea someone can get into heaven simply by dying young.
Ginger, allow me to give you something to think about.
Do we (You) believe that David went to heaven?
Ok, now allow me to post a verse about the child born to Bathsheba out of the adultress union with David.
2 Samuel 12:23...............
"But now he (the child) is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I SHALL GO TO HIM,but he shall not return to me".
Does that not tell us that the child went to heaven at death, and David did as well at his death.
Then in 1 Kings 14:12-13 we see the same thing about another child............................
"Arise thou therefore, get thee to thine own house and when thy feet enter into the city, THE CHILD SHALL DIE.
And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him, for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the Lord God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.
I am suggesting that this is a companion proof text to 2 Sam. 12:23 which speaks of God's gracious reception of the souls of young children.
No. You are suggesting David knows who is saved and who is not, when the Bible tells us we cannot know that.
You are suggesting David's words can only mean one thing, when the fact is there are other possibilities.
David is not fasting because his fasting won't bring the child back to life - that is the context. But, in contrast, David will also one day die, physically.
I do not know what David was thinking in his grief. But, if you are right then I wish I had died at birth as all I have suffered in this life was pointless.
When Job said it would have been better if he had not been boirn, God corrected Him.
You may believe whatever is comforting to you, but I only accept one way to heaven, and the Bible clearly states all are guilty.
I think "all" means "all" and I don't believe there are infants in heaven - the soul does not have age. I also believe those who are still born and aborted are given an opportunity for salvation when God speaks to there ageless souls and not simply because they died.
Ginger
No I am not saying David knows who is saved and who is not, BUT I am saying that here David expresses his firm belief in immortality. He believes that his child who died was with God having passed from this life to the next and that he believed that someday he would die and be with his child.
Second Samuel 12:23 is one of the passages often quoted to imply that babies go to heaven. Though the verse doesn't explicitly say that, David clearly does expect to one day be reunited with his departed child. Since we know David is a believer whose destiny was heaven, we can infer that his hope of reunion means he expected his child to be in heaven. Thus, 2 Samuel 12:23 suggests strong evidence for a heavenly destiny of the unborn and children who die young.
While infants and children have neither sensed their personal sin and need for salvation nor placed their faith in Christ, Scripture teaches that condemnation is based on the clear rejection of God's revelation--whether general or specific--not simple ignorance of it (Luke 10:16; John 12:48; 1 Thess. 4:8).
I just thought it would give you something to think about, it is not intended to be an argument, just a thought.
Have a good day!
First, Major, You are adding a lot to what was actually said.
Second, the Old Testament doesn't talk about heaven.
Third, I already said you are free to believe whatever you want on thew subject, but I have already thought this through and unless you can find a verse that specifically says all childfren go to heaven regardless .... Then their is no point engaging me.
They may all go to heaven, but it is not because they are innocent. The Scriptures have conclu\ded all under sin.
Yes it is! So what's your point. Nothing here points otherwise!
I have heard that when we get to Heaven we will have a restoration of our body in a sense to be healthy and of an age in the 20's or 30's. I also heard that we will all have a place made for us in Heaven. My hope is that I will reunite with my daddy and grandpa in Heaven, among many other people I have lost and/or never met and would have liked to know. We all have our own ideas, and there are lots of verses in the bible about Heaven. God gave us all this love in our hearts that I think lasts for eternity in Heaven. And of course, we will recognize Jesus in Heaven! Won't that be the best!!!! To hold in one hand your Lord, and in the other your most loved relative or friend, and feel all that joy.
Quantrill
Inactive
Concerning David and the death of his child with Bathsheba, and Davids statement that ' I shall go to him', David could be speaking assuredly that he knew the child would be in 'heaven', 'saved', or however one likes to see it. But, though David was assured, does not imply that all children go to heaven. David was a prophet and God could have easily showed this to him.
I have never seen in Scripture where children or infants go to heaven because they are children or infants. Its a hard issue because it reaches your emotions and no one wants to say they don't know. They want to give assurance that the baby is in heaven.
At this time, my understanding is this. It is God's decision when a baby or child dies where it goes. Its a decision God can make because He knows, not just what the person would be, but, who the person is. When Judas was born, didn't God know who he was? You and I may see a cute little baby, but God can see otherwise. God knows those who are His, infant or adult.
Quantrill
I have never seen in Scripture where children or infants go to heaven because they are children or infants. Its a hard issue because it reaches your emotions and no one wants to say they don't know. They want to give assurance that the baby is in heaven.
At this time, my understanding is this. It is God's decision when a baby or child dies where it goes. Its a decision God can make because He knows, not just what the person would be, but, who the person is. When Judas was born, didn't God know who he was? You and I may see a cute little baby, but God can see otherwise. God knows those who are His, infant or adult.
Quantrill
If In our argument we make an explicit statement, or if we think that salvation is "provided by God, through Jesus, to the repentant believing sinner" we might have a problem. This statement is true of course!!! However, it also must be noted that the Old Testament saints were saved although they did not have a complete knowledge of the salvation act (see 1 Peter 1:10-11). So is it possible to be saved by God through Christ even if you don't understand all the facts of the Gospel???
Without a doubt this is one subject we actually know nothing about since the Scriptures are virtually silent on it.
The salvation of those who cannot cognitively understand their sinful condition or God's cure is a mystery. It is not clearly revealed to us. But it has been shown that it is possible and has happened with at least David's son. Beyond that, we must trust the fact that God is not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance. Part of God's nature is mercy and He bestows His mercy and His grace on whom He will. Since God is all-knowing, He knows which babies will not have a chance at life outside the womb and if he wishes He can save them like David's son.
Knowing our heavenly Father's character, that he is just, righteous, and good, when I read statements such as David made about his son, and consider the whole Revelation of God in Scripture, I can, with confidence and joy say, yes, those babies who die in infancy do go to heaven. They are chosen of God, redeemed by Christ, and regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Like all of God's elect, they are saved by the pure, free, sovereign grace of God.
At least that is the reason why I think the way I do about infants, and those who are mentaliy ill and so forth.
Quantrill
Inactive
I don't think Old Testament faith is comparable to infants going to heaven. Old Testament faith is still faith that God sees and requires. They believed God concerning the record He gave concerning His Son who was coming.
I think Scriptures say enough for us to understand Gods ways in this matter of infants destination if they die as infants. And I think our biggest obstacle is our emotions. We don't want to think of a loved one going to hell or the lake of fire, especially if it is an infant. But infants don't go to heaven or hell period. When their spirit goes before God it will be a mature spirit. Such as the age Adam and Eve were when they were first created. If someone dies at the age of 105, do we see them going before God as they left at 105 years of age? No. Why? Because we know Gods perfect age will be as when He made Adam and Eve.
When dealing with infant destination at death we do have to fall upon Gods omniscience in some way. And, we have to be willing to trust God. Will God do what is wrong? No. Will He always do whats right? Of course. As born-again Christians, we do, I believe, have a certain advantage here. For Paul stated to the jailer at Philippi in Acts 16:31 " And they said , Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." So to the Christian parents I say we can have confidence that our children, if they die at an early age, go to be with the Lord. 1Cor 7:14 " For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sasnctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are thy holy." For those who don't know the Lord, I do not have that confidence in their childrens destination.
I believe the omniscience we believers must fall upon concerns Gods knowledge as to who are His and who are not. And this appears in Scripture to be known prior to ones birth. Listen to what Jesus Christ tells the unbelieving Pharisees.
John 8:39 "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, if ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 8:41 "Ye do the deeds of you father."
John 8:42 " Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me:"
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do."
John 8:47 "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
John 10 26 "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."
Note here that Christ is not saying that ye are not mine because you don't believe. He is saying, you don't believe because you are not mine. Being 'of God' comes before belief.
Remember, this is something God knows, not us. But He is giving it for us to know about Him. Not for us to know who are Gods and who are not. We simply give the Gospel. When one comes to Christ, we know he is of God. And thats all we can know. But we can know this truth. And it helps in understanding also the supposed problem of infant destination at death.
Quantrill
Quantrill
Inactive
Yes, good verses. The Holy Spirit in John's gospel certainly does emphasis this truth.
Quantrill
Excellent conversation.!! Good thoughts!
Mere sentimentalism ignores the Bible’s teaching which bears on the issue. We have no right to establish doctrine on the basis of what we hope may be true. We must draw our answers from what the Bible reveals to be true.
The Bible clearly teaches that we are born in sin and that God will not tolerate sinners. God has made one absolute and definitive provision for our salvation through the substitutionary atonement accomplished by Jesus Christ our Lord. Salvation comes to those who believe on His name and confess him as Savior. The Bible teaches a dual destiny for the human race. The redeemed – those who are in Christ – will be raised to eternal life with the Father in Heaven. Those who have not believed in Christ and confessed Him as Lord will suffer eternal punishment in the fires of Hell. Universalism is a dangerous and unbiblical teaching. It offers a false promise and denies the Gospel. I believe that to be true with every fiber of my body and soul.
The Bible reveals that we are born marked by original sin, and thus we cannot claim that infants are born in a state of innocence. Any biblical answer to the question of infant salvation must start from the understanding that infants are born with a sin nature. HOWEVER, The shifting of the focus to election actually avoids answering the question IMHO. We owe the parents of those dear infants a better explination that that when they come to us broken hearted over their loss. Theological "Bible speak" simply will not do in this particular case........believe me, I know because I have been there!!!Those who divide infants into the elect and non-elect seek to affirm the clear and undeniable doctrine of divine election. The Bible teaches that God elects persons to salvation from eternity, and that our salvation is all of grace. At first glance, this position appears impregnable in relation to the issue of infant salvation – a simple statement of the obvious. A second glance, however, reveals a significant evasion. What if all who die in infancy are among the elect? Do we have a biblical basis for believing that all persons who die in infancy are among the elect?
I believe that Scripture does indeed teach that all persons who die in infancy are among the elect. This must not be based only in our hope that it is true, but in a careful reading of the Bible. We start with the biblical affirmations we have noted already.
First: the Bible reveals that we are "brought forth in iniquity," and thus bear the stain of original sin from the moment of our conception. Thus, we face squarely the sin problem.
Second: we acknowledge that God is absolutely sovereign in salvation. We do not deserve salvation, and can do nothing to earn our salvation, and thus it is all of grace. Further we understand that our salvation is established by God’s election of sinners to salvation through Christ.
Third: we affirm that Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ is the sole and sufficient Savior, and that salvation comes only on the basis of His blood atonement. Fourth, we affirm that the Bible teaches a dual eternal destiny – the redeemed to Heaven, the unredeemed to Hell.
What, then is the basis for claiming that all those who die in infancy are among the elect?
First: the Bible teaches that we are to be judged on the basis of our deeds committed "in the body." That is, we will face the judgment seat of Christ and be judged, not on the basis of original sin, but for our sins committed during our own lifetimes. Each will answer "according to what he has done," and not for the sin of Adam. The imputation of Adam’s sin and guilt explains our inability to respond to God without regeneration, but the Bible does not teach that we will answer for Adam’s sin. We will answer for our own. But what about infants? Have those who die in infancy committed such sins in the body? I don't think so!!!.Is there Biblical examples of this. I have already spoken to David and Bathsheba's child. but there is more than that. After the children of Israel rebelled against God in the wilderness, God sentenced that generation to die in the wilderness after forty years of wandering. "Not one of these men, this evil generation, shall see the good land which I swore to give your fathers." But this was not all. God specifically exempted young children and infants from this sentence, and even explained why He did so: "Moreover, your little ones who you said would become prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good and evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it." The key issue here is that God specifically exempted from the judgment those who "have no knowledge of good or evil" because of their age. These "little ones" would inherit the Promised Land, and would not be judged on the basis of their fathers’ sins.
I believe that this passage bears directly on the issue of infant salvation, and that the accomplished work of Christ has removed the stain of original sin from those who die in infancy. Knowing neither good nor evil, these young children are incapable of committing sins in the body – are not yet moral agents – and die secure in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
John Newton, the great minister who wrote the hymn Amazing Grace was certain of this truth. He wrote to close friends who had lost a young child: "I hope you are both well reconciled to the death of your child. I cannot be sorry for the death of infants. How many storms do they escape! Nor can I doubt, in my private judgment, that they are included in the election of grace." The great Princeton theologians Charles Hodge and B. B. Warfield held the same position.
One of the most eloquent and powerful expressions of this understanding of infant salvation came from the heart of Charles Spurgeon. Preaching to his own congregation, Spurgeon consoled grieving parents:
"Now, let every mother and father here present know assuredly that it is well with the child, if God hath taken it away from you in its infant days." Spurgeon turned this conviction into an evangelistic call. "Many of you are parents who have children in heaven. Is it not a desirable thing that you should go there, too? (Isn't this exactly what David said in 2 Samuel) He continued: "Mother, unconverted mother, from the battlements of heaven your child beckons you to Paradise. Father, ungodly, impenitent father, the little eyes that once looked joyously on you, look down upon you now, and the lips which scarcely learned to call you father, ere they were sealed by the silence of death, may be heard as with a still small voice, saying to you this morning, ‘Father, must we be forever divided by the great gulf which no man can pass?’ Doth not nature itself put a sort of longing in your soul that you may be bound in the bundle of life with your own children?"
So, this is about comforting people? Comforting others is an act of compassion....all very well, but we must be darn certain we put truth first. For if we teach lies, we condemn ourselves as we lead others astray and our "good" intentions will not save us.
So far I agree - this is possible.
I believe the rest, you are choosing what you want these verses to mean and disregarding others.
If you are right, then you just made my entire life meaningless. There was absolutely no reason for any of the things I experienced. I would have been blessed to be aborted, and spared much pointless suffering.
In fact, all our lives are pointless, if what you say is true.
I can accept the idea all babies go to heaven, but not on the basis being innocent.
"chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience” (1 Pet 1:2, NASB).
Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jer 1:4-5).
The Lord “loved” Jacob before he was born, or had done any good or evil (Rom 10:11-13)
As for judging by our deeds, that has absolutely nothing to do with salvation! The law was given so we would have no excuse!...not so those who obey to be given salvation.
Those who are saved will be judged according to the good works God does thru their willing hands and those who are perishing will indeed be judged according to the evil they chiose thru their rejection of God.
If someone lives to be 100 and never commits a sin, but persistantly does good deeds even tho he rejects God, he will still perish!!!! Because he is condemned even without committing a personal sin. So, why should it be any different for the one who only lives 100 days?
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. - Romans 5:14
I lost a child and I trust that child is in heaven because of Jesus and this and other promises:
Pro 22:
6 Train up a child in the way he should go;
even when he is old he will not depart from it.
If we want to ensure our children's salvation according to the grace of God, then we need to take responsibility by setting a good example in our daily lives and insuring our children our given proper instruction in the faith. If we do our part, God is always faithful to keep His promises.
Since God knows our hearts and the future, I think it's likely He gives us saved children so we do not have to suffer such a horrendous loss. Like you said, at the beginning of your post, maybe only those who are saved die young????
The point is there are many possibilities for all children going to heaven, but it's the same way the rest of us enter AND there are no babies in heaven nor hell. I don't believe souls have age as do physical bodies that perish.
Ginger
Quantrill
Inactive
No one is seeking to affirm the doctrine of election. I am saying that is the answer to this problem. The Scriptures in John indicate that before we are born we are Gods or we are not.
I fail to see anything in your comparrison of the children of Israel not being punished for the sin of unbelief, as their parents were, pertaining to all children being elect. You are confusing the illustration of Israel, or types, whichever you want to call it. Israel as a nation is already redeemed. That occurs at the Passover. She is baptized in the Sea. 1Cor.10:1-10 Entrance into the promised land is not a picture of heaven. There are wars to be fought in this promised land. In heaven we are not going to be fighting any wars. The promised land is a picture of the Christian or believer coming into his possissions that God wants for him here. Victorious living. War is a part of that. So, the generation that did not commit the sin of unbelief was part of the saved just as those who did commit the sin of unbelief. These sins do not affect ones eternal destiny. That was already settled. Thus being ignorant of good or evil at this point is not the point as far as election goes. It is the point as far as believers committing sins at this time.
Perhaps I misunderstand when you say 'we will answer for our own'. In dying for Adams sin Christ died for all sins.
Ginger pointed out that God loved Jacob before he was even born. Its also true that God hated Esau before he was born. Rom. 9:10-13. Why? Because God knew who he was.
Quantrill