Will there be more saved than lost?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by calvin, Nov 29, 2010.

  1. In the Thread by smellycat ‘leaving your father and mother’, discussion drifted off topic somewhat,(my fault) so I have abandoned it and started a thread which I hope will better accommodate the direction of drift from the original.
    The topic of interest comes down to this: Will the majority of mankind spend eternity with the Lord or will the majority be eternally separated from the Lord?
    If we could go back to Judea and ask Jesus point blanc this question here is what he might say, as is recorded by Luke 13: 24“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”
    This is similar to His teaching as recorded by Matthew 7:13-14. But is it the same teaching as in Luke 13, or an entirely new one? I consider that it is the same teaching stated in slightly different terms.
    Without going in for a word by word exposition, we can see that there are a few things that stand out plainly for us to understand. Firstly Jesus is warning against procrastination, secondly, His use of the idea of peoples coming from all four points of the compass tells us that though there are ‘many’ (procrastinators), in contrast there will be many (myriads?) of people from all over who will be saved. This in itself tells us little of the relative balance of saved versus unsaved, but I think it does indicate that there will be a substantial number of saved souls.

    Yet again Hosea records the Word of the Lord: Hos 1: 10“Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’

    Again Jude says this: Jude 1:14-15 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
    Again, an allusion to an indefinitely large number of saints.

    The question before us is: Is there a direct and unarguable statement as to the proportion of mankind that will not be saved? As for myself, I believe that there will be more saved than lost……but that is me.
    I would hasten to state that personally do not countenance any form of doctrine like ‘universal salvation’ a la Roger Tutt et al.
    I am interested in any thoughts from others be they opposite or supportive.
  2. Well, according to the Encyclopedia Brittanica, Christianity has about a 33-34% demographic. Meaning, I would presume, that only 33+% of the world claims Christianity. Even if we doubt that number and it ends up being twice as many, then we still have a portion of those that claim Christianity that aren't so it's unlikely that we have more than 50% Christianity in the world at this time. If we then take the previous two thousand years and try to make a comparison, it seems unlikely that greater than 50% will be Christian.

    So, unless we decide that all the people from the 8k+ years before Christ were freed and sent to Heaven, then it seems statistically unlikely that there will be more in Heaven than not. Scripture tells us that the road is narrow, and that it is only through Christ that we can come to the Father, as such we can't mathematically allow for anyone who isn't following that path into Heaven.

    I would like to allow for all to make it, but people make their own choices. We could possibly make an argument against Hell being the ONLY alternative (with some difficulty), but it takes a lot of manipulation to allow for those who reject Christ to enter Heaven. So, it's not impossible for there to be more, but it does seem mathematically improbable. Honestly though, I hope you are right and I am wrong. This is not a subject I would like to be right about.
    TimT and Rumely say Amen and like this.
  3. [quote="calvin, post: 235764
    I would hasten to state that personally do not countenance any form of doctrine like ‘universal salvation’ a la Roger Tutt et al.
    I am interested in any thoughts from others be they opposite or supportive.

    Oh, so you've met Roger Tutt, eh? I know he was making the rounds of several forums some time ago. I look at things like the contrast between the many who find the wide gate vs. the few that find the narrow gate. So it's not merely a matter of one gate simply being easier to find and enter, but that fewer people apparently enter the narrow gate than the wide. Then you add in things like how only Noah's family was preserved out of all the descendants of Adam. One man was chosen to father the Chosen People, a small group of people in the world and later a small nation. Only some of the Hebrews with Moses were able to enter the Promised Land. When Jesus exposed people's motives for following Him and the nature of His mission in John 6, many people left Him, leaving His core disciples. Not even all those who call Him "Lord, Lord" and do works in His name will be received into Heaven.

    I agree with Ban in desiring that as many as possible crowd through that narrow gate, it looks to me like the saved will be a minority of all humanity. But, when you are dealing with billions of people over millenia, even that "few" is likely to be quite a crowd.
  4. Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    Incredibly, only a few out of everyone has a sincere love for the truth and want to be saved. Majority hate the love of the truth and will be lost.

    2Thessalonians 2:10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
  5. Agreed. The Scriptures are very clear on this. There will be less in heaven than more in heaven.
  6. Yep. And it shows a big difference in God's Government versus Satan's Government.

    2 cor 4:4 says Satan is the god of this world, meaning Satan is been given time to demonstrate his government on Earth as it seems he accused God of being wrong and running an unfair government in heaven, so God is given mankind and the angels time to see the different governments and everyone are free to choose which one they want to choose.

    But what's interesting is that one third joined Satan in his rebellion towards God, which means the MINORITY chose to follow Satan during God's government in heaven. But then we see that become the opposite occur on Earth under Satan's government, and now we see the MAJORITY follow Satan in his government. Not sure why I brought this up, just found it interesting that's all.
  7. It is in fact interesting. Take it a step further and look at the amount of people in Rev. 21 who live in a world ruled by Jesus but given the opportunity, they rebel againt Jesus and come to battle Him. NOW that is the one that has always troubled me.
  8. If I were to pick-and-choose, I'd say less, but how do I know that?

    And is the number of people who are going to be there important...? I'm not saying it is or it isn't. If I don't know things, I try not to speculate too much, lest I send myself into many different places I shouldn't be.
  9. I'm reminded of the verse where Jesus tells us that many will preach in His name...but He will say, "who are you? I never knew you." How about that distinction? So how many here on earth are gung ho for Jesus, apparently, but He doesn't know them?

    That said, I believe we must each come to a point where a strong decision to follow the Lord (He is the Way) and be truthful and honest in our evaluation of our selves--are we FULLY committed? (He is the Truth) as well as be willing to die to self so that others can know His character in you (He is the Life). That's my take. Are we victims of the world or conquerers, through Christ, of it? Does someone or something else set our priorities for us or are we able to set our priorities toward Christ and His teachings? Who's in charge here?

    God bless
  10. It comes down to free will. But what is interesting is that many times I wonder why have I used my free will to choose Jesus and others not. I love truth, and apparently all the lost hate the love of the truth, 2 Thess 2:10. But WHY would anyone use their free will to hate the love of truth? That question has always baffled me.
  11. Notice Jesus will say "I NEVER knew you". That means they were never born again in the first place. They were not interested in Jesus at all, they were only seeking to make a personal profit and gain and not glorify Jesus at all, and they deceptively convinced themselves that God will give them heavenly access based on their "good works". So it seems they will even try to debate with Jesus, "but we did all these great things in your name"... but Jesus says, "I NEVER knew you". They never relied on love and faith in Jesus, they relied on legalism and their works of doing "good".
  12. I've seen this discussed repeatedly for my entire walk with Christ and before conversion it upset me because I failed to understand justice. But as you have stated, it is a free will situation and God will force nobody to live with Him in Heaven. Just from a practical point, if I build a 2'0" door on one building and a 6'0" double hung on another... more people can enter the second building, in any given time period, that the first. That Narrow Gate is a, very important point to consider.
  13. A long time ago, the Wesleyan brothers developed a "method" (hence the word Methodist) whereby they procured a 2nd blessing from the Lord so that after Justification ("I recognize I'm a sinner and see that Christ died for my sins") came Sanctification ("I now am fully committed to the Lord--set aside for holiness"). This second blessing, I understand, is another name for "being born again."

    I believe, and correct me if I'm mistaken, that if you have not felt a tremendous "beyond-words" joy through your whole body, mind and soul during your "born-again" experience, that can even last for days, you have probably not been born again. The fruit of a born again experience is also a total willingness to do what God asks you to do--even if it means going on a permanent mission. God truly goes with His anointed and many miracles come to those who KNOW beyond a shadow of doubt that they are His and will even give their lives for Him.

    How many "born agains" do we have on this planet? Personally, given the material I have studied on the Holiness movement at the turn of the century, I'm not sure I've been "sanctified" but I truly desire it. How about you guys?

    Love, Vic
  14. Good point Bill.

    The lost, unbelievers, Atheists etc, they have made their choice to reject Jesus. They hate the idea of God, they hate it! They would be eternally miserable in heaven even if you gave them a free ticket to enter.

    God and heaven is not for everyone and majority of humans will not be there from their own free will. God and I respects their right to hate and reject Jesus. And even if they got into heaven, they would be eternally unhappy there.

    If God forced Satan, his angels and all Atheists and unbelievers who reject Jesus into heaven, it would be eternal torment for them there, and there would be another revolution like there was in the beginning.

    I like this following verse, because it helps us understand why the lost will be lost, and the reason is, they simply hated the truth. Even if they claim to love truth, they do not, and God knows their hearts and hatred for truth.

    2 Thessalonians 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
    Rumely likes this.
  15. I can sort of relate the narrow gate to those willing to give Jesus a full commitment of their lives and obtain the 2nd blessing. What a difference our church (the body of Christ) would make in this world if there were more commited Christians (narrow-gaters) and less carnal Christians (wide-gaters).
  16. Hello Vic.

    I didn't know the word Methodist cam from "method". Cool, thanks for that as I love learning little things like that :)

    May I ask you a question?

    Have you come to Christ by faith and accepted and invited Jesus into your life as Lord and Saviour?

    It seems to me that you have, so here is what the Bible says about sanctification for all born again Christians, because the true gospel consists of justification, sanctification and righteousness by faith alone. You don't "work" on being sanctified, because it's a free gift by faith.

    Those who trust in Jesus as their Savior, are now JUSTIFIED, which means "Just as if they had NEVER SINNED", because we are now clothed with Jesus' robe of righteousness and perfection and Jesus' perfection and righteousness is imputed and credited to the believer. Then after justification we enter the sanctification process, which is also by faith in Jesus, NOT works.

    Sanctification is NOT the work of a lifetime. Sanctification is a free gift of faith from God and is offered and accepted immediately!

    The Bible says clearly that sanctification is BY FAITH IN JESUS.

    Acts 26:18 ‘to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

    See that? It says, "sanctified by faith in Me".

    1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

    Notice that? Jesus became our sanctification and we are counted sanctified now by faith in Jesus as a free gift!

    Eph5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    Eph5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    Eph5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    Notice that? It's Jesus who sanctifies us, you do not sanctify yourself for that would be legalism and salvation by works!

    Heb13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

    Notice that? We are sanctified through Jesus' blood, not our own works, or through anything we do!

    Amen :)
  17. There is an interesting pattern I notice in the old holiness writing of years ago (such as Beverly Carradine). The church leaders of the day hated the 2nd blessing and would often leave the premises when an anointed evangelist held a meeting. They hated the 2nd blessing idea. But the people would flock to these meetings eventually packing in like sardines to listen to the preaching of holiness and get the blessing (or the born again experience).

    There is a Pharisaical spirit that can occur in the clergy leaders and Bible colleges that causes the church to be run like a business. I believe when that happens, the Holy Spirit is grieved. A grassroots revival of the 2nd blessing preaching would be great. It's not about buildings, and programs and busyness--it's about knowing Jesus in a most intimate and productive way.
  18. What's this "second blessing" you are talking about? What is it exactly and where can I read about it in Scripture? I have read entire Scripture and have never seen Bible teach it. Where did I miss it?
  19. I wonder if at the rate we abort children in this country not to mention the world, along with all the children who died before the age of accountability will tip the scales in favor of more saved than lost.
  20. How many are being aborted around the world and what sources did you use to find that out?

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