Why Work

Discussion in 'Evangelism' started by th1bill, Aug 24, 2012.

  1. Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
    Mat 28:19Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
    Mat 28:20teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
    These are, perhaps, the most misunderstood and most ignored verses in all of the Bible. Most Christians want noting to do with what we are directed to do in this passage spoken by Jesus. Most commonly the people in churches on Sunday morning are not in the least interested in the Great Commission and will often tell you or anyone else that inquires that they pay their Pastor to cover their responsibility for this duty.

    There is a complete laundry list of problems with this idea and I'd like to discuss some of them here. First of all we need to understand what there is to learn in the book of James about the works of the follower of Jesus. Let's begin with an understanding of who Jesus is and not who He was. In John 1:1-3 we learn that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and in Mal. 3:6 we learn that He never changes. This alone discards all of the New Testament and New Covenant Christian's perspectives, there is not nor has there ever been a change in the guard... so as to speak.

    In the Gospel accounts we are taught by Jesus that if we love Him we will obey His commands. Much to the distress of many, wishing to rationalize the Ten Commandments away, the Ten Mosaic Laws, written by the finger of Jesus on stone tablets are ten commands of Jesus and to make understanding them easy, He simplified them into the Two Greatest Commandments. (Matt. 22:36-40) I am not today nor will I tomorrow tell you that you or any other person can live the Commands and Commandments of Jesus, nor has any other man ever done so. The most common mistake made today is the belief that men were once saved or they were given the opportunity to be saved by living the law. In truth, no man has ever been saved by anything but grace and that of God.

    Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. (NASB) Paul, one of the, very, best Bible Scholars to ever live, having been seated at the feet of Jesus in Asia Minor for three years put it as clearly as it ever need be said, the Mosaic Law is our teacher.

    This might seem the long way around to get to the Great Commission but then, there are an awful lot of hard heads in this world that, like myself, do not breath through gills and do not live in the Gulf of Mexico and just like me, you folks need a ring in your nose for a good teacher to jerk on and, inflicting intolerable pain, lead you into the path of righteousness. The Great Commission does, indeed, apply to your Pastor, just as it does also to your Deacons... but it does not loose it's influence there. You have been commanded by Jesus to fulfill this same command. You meet people, every day, that your Pastor will never have the chance to see if you fail to do your duty as the Great Commission points us,.

    Duty, there is a word that will lead you, neck deep into heresy very quickly if you're not careful. I will explain to you that I am a slave bought and owned by God and in one manor I owe Him everything but be careful, do not get trapped there! I can work because of that truth and accomplish moving myself straight into the Eternal Death found in the Lake of Fire.

    On the flip side of duty to God is love! When my dad married my mother I was ten years old but in a very short time I knew that he loved me and that translated into my love for him. Dad, a military man, had duties that he required to be performed by me but he wanted me to do them not, because he commanded, but rather because I loved him so much that I feared disappointing him. I was not afraid of punishment, punishment was a badge to be proudly worn and I had my rear beat on a good bit at and in school for the things I did there. I and others often bragged about our latest meeting with Coach or the Principal. No, my fear was of the disappointed look on my dad's face and that just killed me because I loved him as much, I like to believe, as he did me. I work for God/Jesus because of that same type of love.

    This is a conversation starter and not an exposition of the subject and it is my prayer that I have not understood my Jesus incorrectly and that he will use this to touch your's and other's hearts and that fruitful conversation will ensue.
    Kevin likes this.
  2. Yup, if we were supposed to do nothing after we were saved, God would rapture us the second we got saved. I sometimes ask Christians, if somebody never reached out and preached the gospel to them would they be saved? How much more so should they then reach out and try to bring the saving Gospel to those they know are not saved!

    James summed it up very nicely - he said show me their works (deeds) because works reflects their faith.
    th1bill likes this.
  3. So far, Bill, my experience with you is like dodging a sniper. But in hopes of understanding your mindset better, here are my thoughts and I will hope for answers.

    Agreed. People try to assign this responsibility to all the members of the Church, every individual member. Who was the command given too? See vs 16...But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.

    Now, as I understand it, the elevel were the Apostles, who were disciples, but they were the "special disciples". And there were how many other disciples that had hung around through Jesus teaching? So, only the Eleven were given this command. I guess the question becomes, was it given to them for the whole Church, or given to them as the HEADS of the new Church to be established on their backs, see my comments on the KEYS to the Kingdom almost-discussion.

    Now if we factor in Paul's teachings, people have different gifts. If you send a mechanic to do a heart surgery, both surgeons and mechanics work on the motors of vehicles, what sort of results do you expect? Mechanics get to turn the motor off when they "operate". So, why would you send a person with administrative gifts the guilt of not evangelizing, or feeling bad because they are too timid and shy and ill equipped to evangelize? It's rather dense in my opinion. So, I agree it's misunderstood. And people with no skills to, nor desire to, nor clue how to evangelize are trying to complete that surgical strike on a heart with mechanic's knowledge and skills.

    And most hard core evangelists make God a fascist and call it loving people. But man they are hyperactive and PROUD of their evangelizing.

    Me too! :rolleyes:

    How do you discern He was God? It says He was the Word, not God. BUT He was with God and all things were created through Him. So someone had to do the creating to get it THROUGH Him, else it would say BY HIM. So, no He wasn't GOD.

    He was the WORD, who later became manifest as Jesus and became the Christ, and died as the Christ, and I'm not sure what to call Him after, Word, Christ, or something else.... AND while he was separate from GOD, He was also united with God, (John 17) And was GOD. John 1. But he wasn't just God. He was and wasn't God at the same time. At least, that's what the Trinity Doctrine of the Church for some 1600ish years has proclaimed.

    Yes, agreed again!!!! :) It's always been the WORD on earth, executing the LOGOS of the Father in heaven.

    Well, Jesus raised a man He loved, Lazarus from the dead. And a man who asked How to get eternal life was told to keep the commandments and claimed He did. Christ loved this young man also. Not loved him as he did the woman at the well, but loved him by specifically being named as one Jesus loved, like John the Apostle, and Lazarus. So, I think if the young man was wrong, Jesus would have corrected Him. It's got to be easier, or at least less time consuming to keep Him from dying, than raising them from the Dead. Instead jesus moved on, past salvation, to a discussion on MATURATION, with If you would be PERFECT/mature, then you must..... (die to your current life of strength and security you built, come to me broken, poor, dependent and live a life for me.) ((Or be born again.... just not in those words.)) So there is one who kept the commandments.

    John in 1 john said He walked in the Light as HE does. So either John lied, Jesus sinned, or it's all just one big metaphor that not even Jesus could fulfill literally. IF He walked in the light AS HE DOES, then He's not sinning anylonger. Which is proven in 2:8, and 1 john 3:6, 3:9, 5:18 to be a consistent message. So, you may not tell us that anyone has been there, but Scripture does. Until it's edited and redacted by someone that doesn't like it's message, or needs to trim a little off to make it fit in their box.

    AMEN!! We agree again. (although, that doesn't mean man can not stop sinning. At least it's not shown in scripture. If you lived on a mountain and never sinned, but didn't love your neighbor, you are as hell bound as Judas Iscariot was claimed to be.

    And yet the jews in the OT didn't hold, UNDER THE LAW, Gentiles to all of the law. :| And in Jerusalem's Council, they deemed it wasn't important to hold them under the law either. So two very important elements of the Bible don't agree with this claim of yours. I'm really curious to understand how you hold to it. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm asking to understand your view. I mean, clearly I don't agree, but that doesn't mean I'm not the one that is wrong. HOW WILL I KNOW unless I consider your position? Incredibile concept, no?

    That wasn't the example Paul gave his students. He told them to do the works they were saved to do, the examples he gave were ALWAYS charitable works. And we know from history, that through those works they were known. That was their witness, not evangelizing. HISTORY, See 1 clement, and the letters of Pliny the Younger. That's off the top of my head, I can probably find more if it's important and would be considered I would do the research.

    Since only GOD knows who's got it right and who has it wrong, I would suggest we don't call others heretics just because they disagree with ourselves. I mean, that assumes you know it all and have it all right. Besides Jesus, Peter, John, James, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, John the Elder, John at Patmos, Paul etc... were all heretics.

    And yet, it was for freedom he set you free. And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. That must take some special dancing to get past? I'm mostly joking on the dancing, but those two verses directly contradict the being a slave part. I know it's a Romans 6:16 reference, and 6:22, and a handful of other places, to become a slave to God, HOWEVER, when it also says to be free, and they are contraindicative terms, we need an answer that will assume both verses and be right, not leave one as right and the other as needing editing.

    I think scripture says, that IS our duty. 1 john 4:16. So I"m not catching the flavor of how you mean this.

    As I see it, if you love GOD you are His instrument of Righteousness. RighteousNESS being the actions of the Righteous. Those actions being Gal 5:6 acts of love through faith, and the SHEEP examples for the TYPE but not all of the specific ways that love is demonstrated. So, if you are His instrument, you aren't trying to do those actions, those actions are the natural result of your love. As you word it, which may be how I read how you worded it, but not how you meant it, you feel your obedience is your choice to show God you love Him. I'd go back to the argument above IF that is the case, and suggest you could live on a mountain and hypothetically never sin again, have your old sins forgiven with the sinner's prayer, and go to hell because you did not become His instrument of Love to His people, enemies as well.

    So, I'd also prefer to discuss, so I've put my differences on the table, and I'm seeking clarification of your views in contrast. Contrast is a funny thing. Without contrast a tv set is worthless, white isn't white, black isn't black, wrong isn't wrong, because right isn't there to be weighed in contrast to wrong. So, through our differences, what SHOULD occur is a better understanding for both.

    SO, I leave the ball on your side of the fence. :) It's pretty, red, shiny, and has a bell inside. It holds m y attention so I share it with you.
  4. That's quite a laundry list there! I gave you the primary (though not solitary) reference and yep, you need to do the study, the Nave's Topical will make it a good study! You say that dealing with these messages is like dodging a sniper... but I'm not the one with his finger on the Barrett 50 cal. That will be God hitting you with, apparently, 50 cal. shots of the Gospel. I am not spreading these posts accross the Web without the leading and direction of the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost, if you prefer.) So it is then that you are not dodging my bullets, You're dodging God!
  5. And, thank you for proving my point. I didn't say dealing with the messages was anything. Your messages are fairly simple to follow. I said dealing with you is like a sniper. Case in point, the (generously called) comments below.

    I thoroughly and systematically answered your points, and in somewhat of a detail to be clear. Your response, is to posture arrogantly as so far above me I'm not worth answering. You accost me by insinuating I lack study, need a Topical Bible (of which Naves is very simplified and is biased per nave's theological beliefs, not a comprehensive list by any means...) You pulled the trigger on your fitty cal in this post. You did that rather than let me get any closer to you in person and force you to answer the comments I made above.

    Any fool can claim they are led by the Holy Spirit, and usually the most INSECURE of people rely on that (no true scottsman) claim to substantiate their positions. Jerry Falwell was led by the Spirit, Joseph Smith, The KOOL Aid guy, WACO dude, I can go on and on. That's the type of person that relies on "spirit led" to support their claims.

    Now want to try again? Do you even understand the comments above? Is that why you avoid them? OR is it just that since I don't pat your back and agree with your conclusion I'm not worthy of your attention? It's pretty much one or the other. I don't care what you answer, I know you'll justify it, you have done that every other time. My interest is the conversation you started and having it. You posted a position, I objected to it reasonably, you reacted with passive aggressive personal slams.

    Now, you can continue to be a bb gun sniper, or discuss as a person interested in the Word of God's messages. Your call. That red shiny balls is awfully lonely, and its on your side of the fense as you just kicked it rather than picked it up and through it back.

  6. I am not going to argue with you. As per your previous, callous, comment and as per the example set by Jesus, God in the flesh of man, I need to getr right to the point... In your comments you said "...Jesus was God..." and that is a great portion of the problem the OP shines the light on here. Jesus died the death of the body and He never died! From the natural view, "Jesus was" leave the view of God dying to be legitimate and nothing can ever be further from the truth. When addressing Spiritual matter the form of your speech is critical because like it or not, any Christian is the Local Ambassador for the Kingdom of Heaven.

    In summation, once more, Jesus always was God (even before He was born,) Jesus is Gad and Jesus always be God! (Mal. 3:6a)

    This statement, alone, will alarm any follower of the Christ. I can tell you that Major, Keven, Calvin and a long list of others here, in my Church Family and on many web sites and forums are filled and led by the Holy Spirit because the Spirit within us connects us. The Spirit does not connect you and I and there can be two reasons for that. You can be guilty of quenching the Spirit or it can be the second, very dangerous, reason, it can be that you were never saved and have fooled yourself into believing you are.

    The gents you have listed here were pretenders and, unfortunately, there are many more, but that does not invalidate what the Bible teaches us to be the truth and the truth is that Jesus, after His ascension, sent us the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. You are mislead, at the very least, and you are falling for one of Satan's best tricks, you are using the "reasoning" of men.

    I am not the Waco Wacko, nor am I anything similar. I, and others in this world, live for the Kingdom of God and, much to your distaste, (it seems) I have just gone straight to the point here.

    That is a fair illustration of you personal pride and the fact is that neither of us is worthy of note! On the other hand, the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Triune God, is worthy of note!

    That you take the words posted as being personal... that is very important and is as it should be. The OP of this string, ties, directly, to my previous post on the distinction between being saved and being a member of the Bride of Christ.

    What I have posted is a message, given to me, by the Holy Spirit and it can easily be verified with Bible study. Whan Jones and the others did and what they taught is and was in conflict with the scriptures... as are your comments.

  7. No, you choose to lecture your personal beliefs and can't stand to face any questions about them. That is obvious from your actions, not my declaration. The only argument I gave you was a reasoned thought behind my different understanding than you had. I asked to understand you better and offered my comments to start the reconciliation. You chose to attack me personally.

    I'm reasoning, YOU are attacking. Bill, stop posturing, stop posing, either discuss the post you made and said you wanted to discuss or stop saying you wanted to discuss. Just say, THIS IS WHAT YOU BETTER BELIEVE OR I WILL DENIGRATE YOU WITH ALL MY MIGHT! Because that's all you got so far bub.

    Arrogant posturing. Proving my expectations above to be correct. Substance not personal attacks boy. SUBSTANCE!

    Scripture doesn't support that presumption fo Jesus always was God, and will always be God, it eliminates the other half of the creed, OR the other half of the concept if you don't accept the creed. I already explained this above, you aren't answering my objections, you are just screaming with frothy mouth that you are right and repeating the same thing you posted originally. :| I see the mad scientist/dictator on their soap box screaming at the world, NO NO DO IT MY WAY.... here. I am not sure why...

    Well, it's AWESOME to know who GOD consults with for HIS judgement. You must be very tired from that burden of being the one that tells GOD who is spirit filled. Your mama must be very proud as well. I have to admit, I can't make that claim. I'm more like Jesus who said HE couldn't judge man while He was on earth. And even when he did, it was because GOD told Him what to say..>> I doubt you have a bat phone to God connection as Christ did, but I MUST be wrong in lieu of your righteous and incredible claim.

    IF it is true that you are led by the Spirit in your words, then you will not contradict scripture. So if you claim you are iNDWELLED by the Spirit, and use this appeal to authority as your substance for justification, rather than actually addressing my arguments themselves, then you had better meet the Biblical criteria to make that claim. If you fail that standard, then you are mistaken, wrong, or a liar. It's not for me to decide.

    Biblical criteria, If you walk by the Spirit you won't give into the temptation of the flesh, errrr won't sin anymore. Do you still sin? Then you are not yet indwelled by the Spirit. SO says the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD when HE WROTE THE BOOK. Until you show me a divine, written in stone, decree that you were hired as God's editor, I'm sticking with scripture.

    You are going to say something like, my spirit man never sins, my inner man, old man sins.... I'm going to call that for BS as that "inner man" that sins, IF you are indwelled by the SPIRIT is no longer there. Romans 8:9 if the Spirit indwells you, you are no longer in the flesh.

    And, how "no longer in the flesh" did Paul mean? Well he wrote that in col 2:11 the flesh is removed by CHRIST as a circumcision done by HIS hands of that body of sins of the flesh, or the sinful nature. So, unless you have some proof of a circumcision healing and growing back to anyone other than Logan?Wolverine from the Xmen, then you are contradicting scripture again, which would prove you are wrong in your claim. At least I'll admit to what I'm not. I think that is reason to give me some consideration at least. I'm humble enough to know what I'm not. What does that say?
    OR the third reason, you are full of it and claim you have what you don't have and thus are misled by SOME Spirit that is not of God. I'd say since you refuse to even accept a challenge to your narrow minded, tunnel visioned, interpretation of scripture, that whatever Spirit it has causes a fear of being wrong, and I don't think that is God's Spirit as I don't think there is much to INTIMIDATE Him. BUT, hey, what do I know, I'm not God's editor and judgement maker, so I'm inherently beneath you,

    Rather than being able to answer my arguments you ignore them and point the finger in empty accusations at me to try to lift yourself up by standing on my back. Truly you have no honor, nor intellectual honesty. :| That's said, this renders any hope, or expectation of having a conversation WITH you impossible. It means you can ONLY lecture and as such are ONLY going to approve of those that agree with you. In short, Bill, the English word for that posture is, Fraud.

    1. Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
    2. A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

    Granted you aren't the waco whacko, you just preach with the same empty claims of authority HE taught. I don't think you house a militant armory, nor that you live in isolation as he did. You need the attention and attaboys too much to be that much in isolation.

    Empty comment, no substance to a conclusion of a substantiated by your examples, observation of your behavior. Lacking anything but a POT SHOT, tells me you are lacking of defense.

    THE CONVERSATION SAYS IT IS A CONVERSATION STARTER SO IT WAS A LIE FROM THE GET GO. I gave you line by line areas of conversation, you just spit at me with insults and said I'm ignorant and need to study the GREAT THEOLOGICAL called NAVE'S TOPICAL BIBLE. Let me joing you in your lines in the sand claim you made. You have Naves Topical Bible, I have Logos Silver Scholar edition and use it in my most serious of studies.
    http://www.logos.com/ go check it out. If the book you consult makes you right, you hold the 2 of diamonds and me the ace of spades. However, I don't think that matters. My line is a LOT longer than yours in the snow. So why not go back and address the arguments to your points, that's what a conversation on a topic is, discussing the contrasts between two views. A lecture is where you get on a stump and preach to the world, and they applaud you. Perhaps you got those words confused, I'd suggest, in the spirit of your thinking, buying Roget's Thesaurus, Webster's dictionary with etymological origins. :)

    Bill, what I have posted is a message from the Holy Spirit to help you grown in your understanding. He sent me specifically to YOU. I have done the Bible study on it, I gave you BIBLICAL arguments, you spit on them and ran like a hare facing a wolf. You have a choice to make, respect the Spirit of God when He sends an "angel"/messenger to you with a message for you to consider, or claim you know more than Paul, Jesus, God and the rest of divinity. That is on you. I just delivered the message.

    For the record, I don't claim to be an angel of God, although technically I guess I could make the argument, I was just answering your little claim with the same claim, to show you how shallow and empty that statement is about your "message" being from the Spirit.

    If you think my last comment is harsh, out of line, wrong, whatever, be sure to remember, it's YOUR argument, I just flipped it back at you.


    assuming you are incapable of a response of reasoning, I'm withdrawing from the thread. I tried honestly, and sincerely, and you spit and clawed at me. So, we have no more to discuss between us. :) You won your freedom from being shown you are wrong. Rejoice.
  8. XP,
    You are in fighting mode and that is counter productive from the git-go. I have prayed and I have yielded my will to the will of God, through the Holy Spirit, that is what is required of the members of the bride of the Christ and I do wish for the best. My posts are the result of the leading of the Spirit that you think to be B.S. and as a result you have approached me with your opinions and, just as I have already told you, your opinion is of no more value than mine is.

    I gave you the beginning scriptures for the study of my posted truth, the truth taught me by the holy Spirit you defame and you have fired at me without even bothering to take aim... you re shooting from the hip like a cowboy bandit. You say that scripture will not support my post and just like David Koresh, the Waco Wacko, you set yourself up in the place of God. Then you spew angry nonsense at me, trying to intimidate. If you ask Major, he should be well learned and will explain to you that I spent eight years of my life tearing boys down so I could make men out of them and keep them alive. You will achieve nothing by screaming at me, other than to demonstrate your lack of intellect to me and the others of this forum.

    For all of your posting, you do not use the Bible... Huge Red Flag! The next thing I expect fro0m you, right now, is a litre of Kool-Aide. I have, for years now taught that the Bible is the last court of arbitration until Jesus sets foot on the Earth again and I not only teach that, I live that! If you want to discuss what the Holy Spirit is busy teaching me, you will need to become more Bible centered in your conversation and a good deal less Wild Woman Frantic.
  9. No bill, I disagreed with you and was quite civil about it. You ignored that and was a snot implying I was ignorant of what I spoke of. Had you addressed one JUST ONE argument, rather than attack me personally, we could have conversed. You postulated and requested conversation.
    I responded
    You attacked,
    I called you on it,
    You evaded and try to deflect your own actions back at me,
    I am laughing at it. I tried to get someone to bet at your response, I would have won it, but they were way to smart to bet.

    Basically, you attacked me and have tried to twist your way out of it.

    You refuse to answer any argument, any time that isn't a comment patting you on the back.

    I admire your study habits. You know HOW to study and use some basic study tools. You obviously get into the study and are capable of working through things. But, my hunch is, you know what you want to find before you begin to search, and gear your search that way. Having engineered a presentation to support your presuppositions, you then share it to the world for their support. So, when I politely challenge you , and you can't answer my arguments, you lash out defensively.

    Bill, I don't care what you believe, if you followed legion into the pits of hell that is between you and God. I am not here to force a confession, make you change your mind, threaten your salvation. I'm not even here to be RIGHT. Truth be told, I am here looking for where I am wrong at. You can't threaten me. I can only be better for any conversation, no matter who is right. I want to be better. Do you want to be better, or do you want to be right. To be better you must first admit you MIGHT be wrong. There is an exercise they do in exegetics class. They give you one verse and tell you to fill out a list of every possible meaning. You have three meanings. There are 750ish possible options. The strong evangelicals, USUALLY, get about twenty down. Why? There is a great teaching that results in them thinking that because when they were saved, everything they believed was the God's Honest Truth! Therefore, any verse that they read, is squeezed to fit into their belief system. They can't go wrong, they are spirit fed their answers and beliefs, right? So were those kooks I mentioned above. The only thing that separates you from them, is you live on, and they can't scream, "no YOU are the one not hearing the Spirit". Wait, the only thing in regards to exegetical skills. I am quite sure you aren't as whacko as they were. But your Spirit claims are no more sure than theirs was. In fact I can fully tell you, the SPIRIT sent me to teach you. He is trying to save you from a wrong turn you made. And you refuse the Spirit led correction you receive from another. Now, try to prove my sentence/claim wrong. The argument goes straight to, 'NO, I GOT THE spirit!", "Nooooo I DO1!!' Back and forth like third grader kids fighting over toys.

    Therefore, IF you could admit it was possible for you to be wrong, then to find out where you WERE wrong, you need someone to reason with you. Like Paul did in all His letters, like it calls for when you use scripture to teach and rebuke.

    I have thrown the olive branch, appealed nicely to reason, and at every turn, you misbehaved first, then try the "NO, YOU1" pee wee herman defense on me. No, really, that's what it's called, look it up.

    If you don't understand what I said, tell me I will work on the wording. But, I gotta tell you, this "you disagree so Iwill say and imply crappy things about you so people will see how smart I am compare to you !" Thing you got going on, is making you look pathetic, and I KNOW, YOU ARE BETTER THAN THAT!

    So that was my last attempt. Someone somewhere needs to intervene in your life and help you cope with the deal that you aren't always right.

    Share with us, an example on here where you admitted to being wrong...had you just addressed the arguments in the first post, called me a dummy, then showed why you believed it, we would have conversed. When you attacked me, well I had to point it out. Not for my reputation, I really don't care what any of you think of me. You aren't who I need to impress. But, I need to point it out, because if I dont, many have the belief you were right and justified to treat me that way. And that means they believe your slanderous statements you said of me, trying to reflect accountability for your actions against me.

    Then the thread gets closed because I am stubborn and kept trying to reach out.... if ONLY I could say it a different way, surely they would understand..... and I am an easy target to blame, if I never make it clear where the chat went south. So, bill, grow up. Converse like an adult, not pee wee herman. I won't waste my time investing personal time into you personally again. However I will continue to disagree publicly to the arguments you present if they are dangerously wrong to my understanding. Until you can own your behavior, admit to it, and attempt to change, chat with you as worthless as a rudder on a camel.

    Truly, conversation is all I want, and apparently the last thing I will find in open discussions here.
  10. And, by the way, I don't defame the holy spirit disagreeing with you, that's just narcissistic personality disorder of some sort talking. You presume you are right, just because you speak. Do you not realize how juvenile that is? Bill, no one will think less of you if you admitted to not knowing something, or that you were wrong, or IF YOU APOLOGIZED FOR SLANDERING SOMEONE AND LYING about what went down in a conversation, just so you could save face.

    The fact you would publicly proclaim something as inflammatory, presumptuous, and subjective as that as if it were a given, is offensive as heck, demeaning, degrading, and purposefully inflammatory.

    Until you can show me where I am wrong with more reason than, THE SPIRIT TOLD ME SO, to which I respond, THE SPIRIT TOLD ME YOU WERE WRONG, you have no right to make that claim, which by default judges my relationship with God, which is above your paygrade, bucko.

    Learn to talk with, not down to someone when they disageee, be a responsible adult.
  11. To all the other Bible studying Christians here, I'm sorry you folks have witnessed this pointless and foolish exchange between myself and XP and I promise you that regardless of his posts, this is finished. If the Mods wish to close this string that might just be best and I will not be the least upset.

    For folks like Major and some others, this statement is not required but for the children, youth and new Christians that might come upon this silly exchange, I need to explain. With the 9/11 invasion of the US, fundamentalism has been run into a nasty word by the far left wing American press and in the case of the Islamic, I am unable to debate the point. Tat being said, fundamentalists come in a wide spectrum and they run the full gambit. The Christian Fundamentalist is the exact opposite of the Islamic or Muslim Fundamentalist and I am a Christian Fundamentalist. My recent exchange here is not a good example, I allowed him to run me entirely to far down Satan's Rabbit Trail!

    For the young and the New Christ Follower, the crux of the issue is very simple and the reason I refused to budge off the center is because once the matter of the permanent Lordship of Jesus is settled, so is all the rest of the fluff or dressing in this case. The scripture is very clear that in the beginning God created the earth and everything else. And then we come to the Gospel of John 1:1-5 where we learn that Jesus was before He was born, that He was and is God and that nothing has ever been created that was not created by Him. Then, when we go to Mal. 3:6 we see that God never changes!

    If a New Christian and the Young Christian never learn another truth, this one you can hang your hats on... forever. Today there are a dangerous number of people like XP here that want to reason the scriptural truths away and that had led to numbers of good people drinking Kool Aid in Jonestown and people intentionally killing themselves, their wifes and their children in fires and other disasters. Paul taught us to be like the Berians and to test the words of our teachers, daily, against the scriptures and we will not be led astray.

    Any time you sit in a class or an assembly, chapel or church and here people preach or teach the Bible, hold their feet to the flames and check the scriptures for what they have to say about God.
    And may God always bless each of you.
  12. Bill, you are an arrogant one.

    I am much more fundamental than you. Pick up a book on church history, apparently the 'holy ghost" ain't teachin it to you. What you call fundamental has only existed for 600 years MAX. Before that the terms and concepts you cliche around with, had very different meanings. I am so fundamental I take 1 john 3:6, 9, gal 5:16 and 50 other vss literally as written. You are the one that has to scramble to make them make sense. Fundamental means by definition unchanged from the original, your theology started being born 150 years before luther, and too a turn at calvin, and another big turn at wesley, and you are too proud and cocky to consider you may not have it right to learn how wrong you are.

    I'm at least honest and informed enough to know what I am not, but you live a self inflamed/self important fantasy. You take another pot shot at me personally and you will regret the day Bill. Grow up or shut up.

    I am out of this thread, stop asking for conversation when you only want an audience 's applause.
  13. And you know what else, Bill. I may be the only friend you have, if I'm the only one with stones enough to tell you how whack you are acting. I won't put your admiration and allyship as more important than a circumvention you needed decades ago. You need a quiet room and some honest evaluations.

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