Why The Rapture Must Happen!

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by JeremiahD84, Sep 24, 2012.

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  1. Set aside petty arguments such as pre, mid or post trib - the Rapture absolutely must happen!
    Stemming from a friendly debate with a pastor friend of mine, I have laid out my argument for why I believe the Rapture must happen and it's all completely Biblical. Check it out!


    Certainly a different take on it than most have heard before but the Rapture is the completion of our salvation.
  2. I agree.
  3. Sorry, but I went to the blog and although it sounds great, the scriptures he uses are out of context with the Bible. You can't take a 'couple' scriptures and come up with a theory that goes contrary to the rest of the bible! The scriptures in question have to be used in context of the whole book of the Lord. So please read Why the 'rapture can't happen...


    Read " the Day of the Lord first and then read 'Why there can't be a rapture...Those who return with Christ are those who have washed their robes in tribulation...they are the saints. The Bible is very clear that Jesus will be bringing Zion down out of Heaven and will gather the people to Him and separate them. He will first gather out the workers of iniquity. Go read the Day of the Lord, you will not believe in a rapture anymore....

    May Grace be with you,
  4. Actually I'm familiar with what the Bible as a whole says and it's very clear there is a rapture. If you reject a rapture it's because you don't understand scripture as a whole. In addition, the verses I used were more than just clips of verses out of context. I used sections of verses that clearly indicate what they're about. You either didn't read the blog or you read it already having made up your mind that you're against it.
    When Jesus lived on earth, He offered the kingdom to the Jews but they rejected it - so God used this to draw to Himself a group of all peoples, nations, tribes and tongues and He is calling it His church. He even predicted His own rejection by the Jews and the establishing of the church when He gave the parable of the olive branch - In it the Kingdom of God is like a cultivated olive tree and the Jews are a branch, but they have been cut off and a wild olive branch (the church) has been grafted in. However Jesus goes on to say that the wild olive branch will be removed (raptured) so the cultivated branch (the Jews) could be grafted in once again and finally receive the promise of the Kingdom. I respect your right to disagree but I encourage you to keep studying. The rapture is fully Biblical and promised by Jesus.
    Major and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  5. Well said.
  6. Well, the fact is there isn't one verse in the entire Bible which indicates that the Church will go through the Tribulation period.

    "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." -Revelation 3:10

    God will NOT allow the Church to go through the Tribulation Period. It will be a time of atrocities as the world has never known! God wouldn't destroy the wicked in Noah's day until Noah and his family were all safely aboard the ark. Not one drop of rain fell until Noah and his family were on the ark, and God had shut the door. Afterwards, the rains fell and the wicked were utterly destroyed.

    The same is true of Lot and his family. Although Lot was a backslidden believer, he was nevertheless a "just man," a righteous man (2nd Peter 2:7,8).

    We read in Genesis 19:22........................
    "Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither."

    These words were spoken by the angel whom God had sent to reign down fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah. No judgment could fall upon Sodom, until Lot and his family were removed. Likewise, the Church will be Translated (Raptured) away from this sin-cursed world before the Tribulation.
  7. The Jews are the natural branches.. we are not...Now please show me where it says the 'wild branch' will be removed?

    Here is what my scriptures says...

    Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    All it says here is that when the fulness of the gentile believer has come in, that Israel will have the blinds taken off! There is nothing here about a rapture... It is clear that you didn't go read the study I suggested... But answer me one question...If the sounding of the LAST trumpet is when this catching away takes place and the trumpets are not handed out until after the tribulation is over, how are you going to be raptured before it?

  9. T/C...........I learned a long time ago that when anyone spends as much time to prove an opinion, it is nothing more that a smoke screen to cover up the truth.

    The TRUTH never needs an explination. Truth is Truth and requires no long list of explaining it.

    You stated.......................
    "Major, there are many scriptures that talk about the church going through tribulation".

    NOPE! That is not true. There are NONE!!!

    Then you said.......................
    Act 14:21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
    Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

    Are you a disciple of Christ?

    Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

    Today, the Kingdom of God is within the believers heart. YES, the church will go through tribulations, but not the SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION right before Armageddon.

    1 Thess. 3:3..............
    " Let none be moved by our afflictions, for you yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto."

    As Christ did not put the apostles upon any harder service than what he underwent before them, so neither did the apostles put the ordinary Christians. It is true we must count upon much tribulation, and we all will have tribulations in our lives, but this is encouraging, that we shall get through it; we shall not be lost and perish in it. Just as God made a way through the Red Sea, the Lord has opened a way through it, for the redeemed of the Lord to pass over. We all will have trouble, but we shall overcome it by Gods grace and protection.. We shall not only get through it, but get through it into the kingdom of God; and the joy and glory of the end will make abundant amends for all the difficulties and hardships we may meet with in the way. It is true we must go by the cross, but it is as true that if we keep in the way, and do not turn aside nor turn back, we shall go to the crown, and the believing prospect of this will make the tribulation easy and pleasant. That in no way whatsoever indicates that the church will go through the Tribulation Period but instead have tribulations in this world and we have been having that now for 2000 years.

    You asked me............
    Are you a disciple of Christ?

    I will not dignify such an ignorant question with a responce.

    Your attempt to FORCE the Scripture to say what you want them to say is very weak and I do hope you will do some more serious Bible study and pray for the Lord to open your mind and heart tot he truth of Gods Word.

    Because Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16, said believers would be raptured at the sounding of a trump, many folks have tried to make it appear that the rapture trumps are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Mat 24:31--which all occur during the tribulation.

    When you have trumpets commonly used throughout the Bible, I think it's foolish to just assume any two of the 62 trumps or trumpets are prophetically related. To be able to make the claim that the tribulation trumpet soundings are the same as the rapture trumps, you would need a direct statement saying this is the case.

    In the movies Ben-Hur and The Wizard of Oz, I recall hearing the sounding of trumpets. Are both these trumpets somehow prophetically related?

    If your friend John said he went to his favorite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favorite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant? Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurants, they may have had two different eating establishments in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet.

    With such a blind devotion to this one similarity, I have to wonder if these last-tumpeters are able to distinguish the difference between Tylenol and Exlax. They're both over-the-counter drugs, they come in pill form, and they can also be found in a medicine cabinet. Of course, one will make your headache disappear and the other will make your toilet paper disappear.

    Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?

    Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1:
    1. Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."
    2. According to 1 Cor 15:52, the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye.

    Joel 2:1 says the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand. In order for Joel's trumpet to be the same one in 1 Cor. there would have to be a time delay between the sounding of the trumpet and the rapture of the Church.

    3. The fact that there is another trumpet being sounded in Joel 2:15 further clouds the possibility that these trumpets could have anything to do with the rapture.

    When Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he specifically said "the" last trump. During the Feast of Trumpets, the Jews blow short trumpet blasts. They end the feast with a long blast from what is called the last trump, which is blown the longest. Judaism has traditionally connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead. Paul also made the connection. For many Christians, the association between the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets is so strong, they look for the rapture to someday occur on this feast.

    You are not the first person to work so hard to prove your opinions and I just really do not have the patience to go over and over the same ground with you. IF you choose to believe your opinions, then God bless you. I am not going to spend anymore time trying to convince you otherwise.
  10. "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. "

    "Confirming the souls of the disciples,
    and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

    "For verily, when we were with you,
    we told you before that we should suffer tribulation
    ; even as it came to pass, and ye know. "

    no need to single out the church of Philadelphia, include this church also
    Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall castsomeof you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

    Well I'm not the type to spam scripture, as I wish they weren't even numbered, but it is a slow day. It's been rainy here all week. And pretty cold as well.

  11. You said:

    Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1
    1. Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."
    2. According to 1 Cor 15:52, the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye.

    The trumpet in Joel is the start of the day of the Lord. That is a no brainer...

    The last trumpet in 1 Cor 15:52 is the last trumpet of Revelation...there is no conflict there. In fact it is consistent with Revelation in every way.

    Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
    Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
    Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

    When you use the ' trump of God' scriptures in 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16 of and then try to say that there is more than one 'last trumpet'....that is scripture twisting at it's finest.

    The first trumpet sounds and the dead in Christ rise: this is the first resurrection:

    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    This happens at the start of the 1000 year reign:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    This first group that reigns with Him were either were killed for their witness or overcame the mark of the beast.
    They come from great tribulation!

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of
    great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

    What makes you think that you deserve to be raptured when those who lost their lives for Him don't get that option? Oh and if you don't think there is any 'tribulation' going on- explain that to those Christians in other countries who are persecuted for His name.

    There are seven trumpets dealing with the end times. The first starts starts the day of the Lord, the seventh one ends it. The trumpets are clearly handed out after the tribulation is over. Sure there are lots of trumpets in the Bible...We are dealing specifically with the ones rapture believers use for their theory. You can't take the last trumpet and the catching up and apply it to a time 'before' the first trumpet even sounds or is handed to the angels. I am not advocating for a 'post tribulation rapture either... there isn't a rapture in the context of the way you want it to happen...if there was how can there be a harvest at the end of the world:

    Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    And how can he gather the sheep and the goats together if the sheep are gone?

    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    Your rapture theory is actually the harvest...If you are a sheep when He returns He will let you into Jerusalem. If you are a goat...you have a different ending.

    You said:

    Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?

    Paul spent three years learning the Gospel from the Holy Spirit before he ever met a disciple. I am sure Jesus could have given him a few words to put in his epistle. That gives even more credibility to the gospel and Paul's testimony that he spoke of it 40 years before John wrote it. Why is that a problem for you?

    As far as you 'not answering my question' about whether or not you are a disciple...All you have to do is say yes or no. It wasn't a difficult question. Christians are to be disciples of Christ. I expected a 'yes' from you...We as Christians are supposed to be prepared to answer anyone for the hope that is in us and to exhort each other daily in the word of God. I can rightly divide the truth and you are left to stumble around with the teachings of men.

    The bottom line is this; If you have true grace ...the Power of God resting within you, that is all you need no matter what happens. Perhaps you should consider listening to another Christian once in awhile instead of being prideful that you know it all. There are some who have more knowledge than you or I...

    God Bless
  13. I picked up on this bit as this verse is not used or taught in the correct context and you are making same mistake.
    Lets read rest of the Parable shall we

    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    The sheep are all the believers and those who helped the Jews during the 7 years.

    Verse 40 states," Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Who are the Brethren of Jesus? Obviously it can only be the Jews as Jesus is a Jew. Amazing how many Christians still do not realise that Jesus is a Jew, once you understand this then it takes on a whole new perspective, one which the replacement theologists do not like, so we have a whole new theology built up over it, to mean people who just generally do good, but if you think about that theory, it just dosnt sit right with the whole statement, no it is clear we are talking about the Jews.

    Remember Gods promise to the Jews? Genesis 12:3 Well this sorting sheep and goats is part of the promise in action, people helping the Jews and siding with Israel will be blessed, those going against will be cursed, and so we see the sheep and goats being sorted with those who blessed Israel and Jews in the troubles being rewarded as sheep.

    Beleivers who have accepted Christ are already entered into "heaven "and we do not need processing at the White Throne Judgment, which is when the Goats and Sheep are sorted. Another point is that when Christ returns its at head of army with all the saints, that is all the believers , another misconception people have thinking its just the saints that the catholic church have decreed to be saints.

    Therefore if all the believers are in the army coming with Jesus, then how did they get there? If people are already accepted and in this army with Christ then it is totally illogical that these saints will have to go through the sorting process, if you are already processed, ie have your name in lambs book of life then there is obviously no need to be processed a second time.

    Once you start to understand that the early church was pratically 100% Jewish, Jesus is a Jew and therefore his parables etc are all tied up in Jewish culture and custom and directed totally towards and to the Jews, it makes sense to learn the basics of Jewish culture and custom of the time. For example, marriage ceremonies, once you learn about Jewish weddings and ceremonies around them, then parables such as the foolish virgins take on a whole new meaning.
  14. "Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham." Proof that the promise is not according to flesh, but according to the Spirit.

    "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." -

    "if you are Christ’s then you are of Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." - He was speaking to Gentiles.

    “My Kingdom is not of this world”

    “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own
    special people” (I Peter 2:9). This verse should seal the deal for those who claim Jews who reject Jesus are somehow heirs to the promise. It clearly states who the chosen are, and they are not the people who in this modern day refer to themselves as 'Jews'.

    Are the people who call themselves 'Jews' today God's chosen people, and not those who call themselves Christians? Who is this 'Israel' of today, that somehow has preference over the believers of Christ? John the Baptist called them a brood of vipers and Jesus called them hypocrites, but you call them heirs to the promise.

    This modern day worship of "Jews" needs to stop. Those who practice Judaism today, are no longer Jews. Israel is not a nation with political boundries anymore. The Church is Israel, and in the progress of time, 'Jews' stopped at the halfway point, but the real Judaism continued down the path. Since they claim the name 'Judaism' , Christians have to be called another name, but in reality Christianity can also be called Judaism.

    Maybe I mis-understood your post, but I thought you were saying that modern people who call themselves Jews were children of the promise. Sadly, a large portion of people believe the Bible was written in the 1800's by Darby. People who follow such things are similar to Mormons and Jehovas Witnesses in that they are an offshoot of Christianity rather than the root of it. Christians had never claimed Jesus rejecting Jews still had some kind of promise to be fulfilled pertaining to them, because the promise was fulfilled in Christ, but for some reason they chose to forsake their birthright.
  15. So God is a liar and breaker of promises? If replacement theology and the claptrap and lies you are spreading is true then God is a liar and breaker of promises. If that is the case, then the whole Bible can be thrown out and we all live in fear wondering if we are going to be living for eternity with God.

    Replacment theology is based on cherry picking verses to support an evil anti-Semitic agenda and to stir up hatred of Jews in Christians by branding them as "fake" and that Israel is not the true Israel but an evil man made creation that has nothing to do with ancient Israel. POPPYCOCK.

    You only have to look at what is going on in the world to see that Israel is the only nation which God is now protecting 100%. Nations, organisations and individuals going against Israel are cursed, but people dont want to see that. All of the significant storms and disasters to hit the USA in past 30 odd years are a direct result of the government meddling with Israel.

    Israel only had a few strips of desert , God blessed that land and life flourished, on the same day they gained thier independance again, Arab nations waged war and tried to wipe them off the face of earth, they failed, despite superior numbers and weapons. Since then many attempts to invade Israel have failed and will continue to do so.

    Jews are returning in their droves as prophecised. Jews have always lived in and around Jeruslem the ancestors of the people who returned after the enslavement of Babylon. It was thier failure to repent which God punished and extened by 7 times. the thousand odd years that worked out came to an end in 1948, and right on cue, Israel became a nation in a day , again just as prophecy stated it would.

    The church is not Israel, Israel is Israel, a proud nation standing against the world with God as its defender and champion. Trying to take the upper ground by trying to relegate this to cult teaching status is another evil. You can use any Bible you like, the facts are still the same, God makes a promise to Abraham and a covenant which we are seeing in effect today. God dose not break or changes promises, the covenant can not be changed, its a legally binding agreement that neither can break.
    Major likes this.
  16. Let the scripture do the talking: Verses bolded for emphasis

    Romans 11

    New International Version (NIV)
    The Remnant of Israel

    11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
    7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
    “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    eyes that could not see
    and ears that could not hear,
    to this very day.”[c]
    9 And David says:
    “May their table become a snare and a trap,
    a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
    10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
    and their backs be bent forever.”[d]
    Ingrafted Branches

    11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
    13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
    17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
    22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
    All Israel Will Be Saved

    25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
    “The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”[g]
    28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
  17. Why do you say that God is a liar and breaker of promises? And why do you say that the whole Bible can be thrown out and we should all live in fear? This simply is not true because God is not a liar, and the Bible should not be thrown out.

    You are correct when you say this, because we Christians know that it is written:
    "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.
    But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. "

    And also:

    "Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham."
    And also:

    "But in Christ it is not circumcision or uncircumcision that counts but the power of new birth. To all who live by this principle, to the true Israel of God, may there be peace and mercy!"
    Q. Who is the true Israel of God?
    A. Those who live according to the new birth
    So if the same Israel that was around when this was written wasn't the definition of the 'true Israel of God', then how can the modern 'Israel' which has no connection even to the FORMER Israel be remotely considered the Israel of God?

    You might be correct here. Perhaps God really is punishing us by meddling with Israel. Seeing that unbelievers have gathered themselves and formed a nation they call Israel, claiming to be God's chosen nation built by human hands, I can see how God might consider this blasphemous, and punish those who affiliate themselves with them.

    Which god are you referring to? Is the nation claiming to be Israel very proud?

    "Love the LORD, all you his saints! The LORD preserves the faithful but abundantly repays the one who acts in pride."

    "For the sin of their mouths, the words of their lips, let them be trapped in their pride. For the cursing and lies that they utter,"

    "When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom."



  18. [SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff00ff][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff00ff][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]You classify every Christian Church up until the time of Darby in the 1800's , to include the Apostles, the mayters, and Jesus Himself, as a cult? I only ask this because never had anyone up until the late 1800's ever taught that God would gather unbelieving Jews and place them all in a nation called Israel to fulfill His promise. If gathering unbelieving 'Jews' is what they were promised, then for what purpose did Jesus become manifest in the world? Our promise is a physical country with a high crime rate and secular government? I prefer the promise of Jesus, He is more than a plot of dirt. If you were offered a plot of dirt, or the Life of Jesus you would take the dirt? Why?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

    Jesus answered,
    "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world."
    [SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff00ff][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff00ff][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff00ff][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff00ff][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff00ff][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][SIZE=3][COLOR=#ff00ff][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][SIZE=3]--Is this modern Israel not of this world? Because I'm pretty sure that its a physical nation that is clearly of this world.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

  19. You are both wrong...Lets see what scripture says:

    Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    Read the valley of dry bones (Ezekiel 31.) All of Israel is resurrected and the Holy Spirit is poured out on them. We as gentiles are heirs to the promise though the Holy Spirit. We have to repent and come out from the world to receive this free gift, they don't. Israel will remain blind until all the gentile believers have come in..They still have a veil over their eyes until He returns:

    2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
    2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
    2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
    2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

    The group that is in Israel now is an abomination to the Lord. He said that the desolation was supposed to last until the consummation (the marriage )

    Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    He will clean house and boot out those who don't belong:

    Zep 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
    Zep 1:13 Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
    Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
    Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

    If you think the group that is there now is representative of who God wants in the Holy land...

    Eze 33:24 Son of man, they that inhabit those wastes of the land of Israel speak, saying, Abraham was one, and he inherited the land: but we are many; the land is given us for inheritance.
    Eze 33:25 Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land?
    Eze 33:26 Ye stand upon your sword, ye work abomination, and ye defile every one his neighbour's wife: and shall ye possess the land?
    Eze 33:27 Say thou thus unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; As I live, surely they that are in the wastes shall fall by the sword, and him that is in the open field will I give to the beasts to be devoured, and they that be in the forts and in the caves shall die of the pestilence.
    Eze 33:28 For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease; and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through.
    Eze 33:29 Then shall they know that I am the LORD, when I have laid the land most desolate because of all their abominations which they have committed.

    Isa 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
    Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning

    Until then, we should be praying and asking the Lord for mercy on them...And worry more about whether or not we are going to be ready when He returns.

  20. I agree completely with the comment concerning the things that have happened to the USA when we as a nation began to tell Israel what to do with the Promised Land.

    Seems like every time we do that, God shakes the USA. IMO!.
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