Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Ingbert, Feb 11, 2011.
Nope. You made a false interpolation of what I said.
The bible doesn't speak about "anal sex" but in Lev 18, 22 it says:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
I therefore used the word "intercourse" - and I did so fully on purpose - because an 'intercourse' is a way in which something is practiced (at least for my understanding of the English language, see also: Wiktionary: Intercourse, please note that English is only my second language) - a way which something is practiced like i.e. "as with". "Sexual intercourse" is therefore a word used for "sex" because it is the way man and woman lie with each other. "Homosexual intercourse" was used by me to refer to a man who "lie with mankind as [those who have heterosexual intercourse lie] with womankind".
Again, you quote a formulation which I used very intentionally. A person who believes in salvation through Christ is not necessarily a Christian (see also James 2, 19).
It is also in fact a very controversial question whether sin which is actually repented but not overcome, will render the sinner's salvation null and void.
Sorry Ginger I must have misunderstood. I'm also sorry about you loosing your sister I can't imagine what that would feel like. My Dad knows tho. He lost his brother to cancer a while back. I still hear stories about him to this day. I also do unstertant what you were saying in that post about your sister.
It's Okay, Faith. I just got emotional for a few minutes....had a good cry and am almost done.
I don't know why it is still so hard after all these years. It's odd....I felt totally alone in this world when she past. And I still can't listen to certain songs without breaking down and bawling.
But this life is only temporary and we'll all be together again soon.
Thnak you for caring. and thank you for forgiving me.
Just a point of clarification, the issue is actually not with those who aknowledge homosexuality as a sin but are actively struggling to overcome it. The issue lies with those who want homosexuality to be struck off the list of sins the LORD Himself has declared. Who want us to accept as not a detestable sin that which is a detestable sin to OUR Father. It seems they will not be happy until they get every follower of Christ to agree to defy the word of the LORD Himself because they want to practice a sin and somehow still get to Heaven, or at least not feel guilty.
But to what end? Churches do not decide what is and what is not a sin. What a church decides means nothing. What the LORD has already decided means everything. If they want to argue homosexuality is not a sin and is not detestable to the LORD then they need to take it up with the LORD, not with the churches.
I've watching this topic go on for six pages now without ever actually addressing the original question. I've seen a lot of very unkind comments that just prove how polarizing this issue is, and I'm honestly left with the conclusion that the main reason that homosexuals, even those that do not actually practice the acts themselves, cannot be Christians is because Christians simply cannot tolerate the people. I'm not seeing "hate the sin but love the sinner" here. I'm seeing an endless string of accusations and misrepresentations. This is very sad. Is anger and intolerance really the only way we know how to demonstrate the love of Christ? If this is how we treat homosexuals, then it should be no surprise to us that so few ever repent of their sins, both real and imagined. This is sad.
I get that you all have very strong feelings on this issue, but we've crossed a line here. Does this thread make me think of a friendly Christian environment? I'm not saying to just accept it, but the point of this thread was why is homosexuality looked upon as so much worse than all other sins. After reading six pages, I'm left to conclude that it is an emotional issue. Is there Biblical support for it? Yes. But there is no support for the ridiculous emotional backlash I'm seeing in this topic. That is my 2 cents and the last I will say on this topic as a poster.
Now, as a moderator, I am putting a warning down for the remainder of this thread. Discussion needs to be friendly and reflective of the spirit of this site.
I think think the OP has been addressed, but sometimes replies get lost in the shuffle of multiple conversations.
The original Post:
Follow up from the OP:
Response: Because food laws were abolished because they were no longer necessary after Jesus. But sexual sin remains "detestable"
I think that answers the OP.
Your explination sounds acceptable to me. Now allow me to tell you that in the context of the conversations we are having on this subject, it at first glance sounded as if you were using words to make it (Homosexuality) more acceptable to society.
1) We (Humanity in general) call the death of unborn children by choice...ABORTION.
God calls that same thing MURDER.
Why the differance. For one reason.......Abortion sounds better and makes the "practice" palitable.
2) We call sex outside of marriage........LIVING TOGETHER.
God call that same thing FORNICATION.
Why the differance. For one reason.......Living Together sounds better and makes the "practice" palitable.
3) We call men having sex with men/women with women .........GAY.
God calls it an ABOMINATION.
Why the differance. For one reason.......Gay sounds better and makes the "practice" palitable.
That is what it sounded like when you were doing when the term "Homosexual Intercourse" was used.
Now then you said above..................
"Again, you quote a formulation which I used very intentionally. A person who believes in salvation through Christ is not necessarily a Christian (see also James 2, 19)."
At this point we can talk about the Scriptures and their meaning instead of our opinions. Thanks for the quote.
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe and tremble".
To understand what James just said, one must read verse 17-18 to know what he is talking about...CONTEXT!
"17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. "
James is saying that it is faith that saves, but SAVING faith produces something!!!!
Lip service is not the evidence of SAVING faith because EVEN THE DEMONS BELIEVE BUT THEY ARE NOT SAVED!!!!
Saving faith is a faith that is alive---professing faith is DEAD. We have a lot of so-called professing Christians today who are members of churches and many write glowing sweet words on this very web site. But the truth is they are nothing more than zombies. They are walking around as if they are alive but they are in fact dead.
WHY do i say that???? Because the faith that they CLAIM was not SAVING faith because it has not produced any good works in them to be seen by God and others.
NO, I did not say that we are saved by good works so please do not post that I did. I said and I am saying that SAVING faith, as James and Paul taught us in the Scripture produces in us the disire to do GOOD WORKS for others AFTER WE ARE IN FACT SAVED!!!!
"Let us not be weary in well doing".
"Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
"Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
20. Where for by their fruits you will know them".
Then we have this quote from you..........................
"It is also in fact a very controversial question whether sin which is actually repented but not overcome, will render the sinner's salvation null and void."
Of course God will accept anyone, but on HIS TERMS, not yours! The criterion is Repentance PROVEN By Deeds. Flee His Wrath and Plead for Mercy! (Acts2:37-40) NO ONE who comes to God in this manner, Broken and contrite, through godly sorrow and a zealousness to clear themselves of all wrong doing is going to ‘Still’ want to practice homosexuality! You Don’t come out of this kind of Sin by Degree. You FORSAKE it or LOSE your soul!
God fully expects you to STOP SINNING! “Go and sin no more! Lest a worse thing come upon you!” Jn5:14. That’s what Repentance is for. TO CLEAR you of the wrong doing, Purge your conscience of the sin, Purify the heart and make it FIT for the Holy Spirit to indwell. He who sins is of the devil! So if you are ‘always’ going to go on sinning, WHO is your father? (Jh8:44) Jesus Loved the Rich young man too, (Mk10:21) But he went away unapproved because he refused to yield his heart. Sin is NOT an Addiction! It MUST be Repented of to be forgiven, and that includes an abandonment of the Vile Behavior.
Thats to bad. BUT, I am not the one you have to be concerned with because I am not the enemy.
You are welcome to contact me in future at any time you wish to.
God bless you and keep you safe.
Please understand that the goal of every believer in Christ Jesus is to try and help others in their walk through this time we call LIFE.
IF Ginger or me or anyone tried to push their BELIEFS onto you I would be the first in line to be on your side. But the fact is that Ginger was using the advice from the Scriptures which is and always has been God's plan for us to live by.
There are in this world we live in those who claim to be Christians but practice a breand of Christianity that comes from their mind and not from God's Word. We are in fact told by God in His Word to give out the warning to others that they might hear the Word of God and be saved because of it.
"Faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the Word of God".
Some do not enjoy some parts of the Bible because they convict us of our sins. They become a mirror into our souls and that is for our good. They warn us and encourage us to stop, listen and repent.
Last summer as I was going down a street at night, a huge tree fell right after I passed it and when it did it pulled the electric line from the pole and laid it right across the street. I got out of my car with my phone and called 911 and a flashlite in my other hand. A car was approaching from the opposite direction and I stood in the middle of the street waving at him to stop. He braked just in time and stopped about 50 feet short of that power line. IF I HAD NOT WARNED him of the impending death of crossing that power line, he and his family would have died. He got out, realized what had just happened and he and his wife broke into thankfull tears.
This is a true story!!! As God would have it, I was able to use that example to show them that God had just spoken to them about their spiritual life through a physical event.....now what will you do with it was my question. As it happens, they were angry with God at the sudden death of one of their children. They had pulled away from the Lord and God used the warning given to get their attention. They are now members of our church, and the wife is not expecting a baby. WHY............because of a warning!!!!
GOD IS GOOD MY DEAR FRIEND.
I do not know if that is applicable to this thread but I had the need to post it so I am believing that God knows someone needed to hear it.
I do not know you therefore I can not accuse you of anything. You have been posting the fact that you do not believe that homosexuality is a sin and the Word of God clearly tells us that it is a SIN.
Sin is disobaying God's Word.
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with woman kind, it is an abomination."
Homosexuality was known and practiced in the ancient Near East from very earluy on. It was among the many sins that was prevalant in the Promised Land by the Canaanites before Isreal went into the land. God told His people in Deutonomy 18:9..............
"When you go into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, THOU SHALT NOT LEARN TO DO
AFTER THE ABOMINATIONS of those nations".
Abominations in the Hebrew original is........."DESTABLE THING".
Homosexuality is only one of the many things that God said to "DO NOT LEARN TO DO THIS THINGS".
They rejected God and for that reason they were removed from the land and taken into captivity.
That is is consequences for their actions. SIN is always judged.
Now.........nothing has changed except about 3000 years. You certainly can ignore me but once again I am n0t the one you need to be concerned with. I and the others who have spoken to you over the years, and by the way YOU are the one who started the thread, have done nothing but give out to you the warnings of God concerning this sin of homosexuality. You call it RANTS, we call it love for you in that we all pray from your ability to repent, confess and come to Christ and accept Him in the free pardon of sin.
Yeah, this is why I was hesitant to post these kinda threads. They always turn out this way. But somebody suggested I post a couple threads because this is such a "friendly" site and it would different here.
Well, it did pretty much prove the premise of the OP even if it didn't get any real answers.
No. Actually I can not see why "anal sex" could be less acceptable in society than "homosexual intercourse", especially since between a married man and woman, this is not biblically prohibited.
"Homosexual intercourse" is also a more general term. For example, I'd not believe that oral sex between homosexuals is biblically permitted.
Actually, in the bible, a distinction between born and unborn children is made (see for example Ex 21:22), even though it's not said that a ruling like this could also apply for the deliberate destruction of the unborn child.
I am very much pro-life, but I'd clearly distinct between abortion and murder. In fact, abortion is illegal in Germany, even though it is not punishable. See also:
- BVerfGE 39, 1 (Summary)
- § 218 (a/b/c) StGB
Well, we all have our personal thoughts I guess.
"Thou shalt not kill".
That commandment was about one thing..............Murder.
The purpose of the sixth commandment, ‘You shall not murder’ (Exodus 20:13), is to protect human life. I believe, from the Scriptures, that abortion is murder. According to the Bible, murder is the intentional killing of innocent human life. The murder scenarios described in Numbers 35 all illustrate an intention to kill. For example, ‘If a man strikes someone with an iron object (curette) so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death… If anyone with malice aforethought shoves another or throws something at him intentionally so that he dies, or if in hostility he hits him with his fist so that he dies… he is a murderer.’ (Numbers 35:16, 20, 21). To purposely destroy a human being, with malice aforethought, is murder. To purposely destroy an unborn child in its mother’s womb, with malice aforethought, is intentionally killing, and that, according to Scriptures is murder. I therefore refer to abortion as murder of the unborn.
I do understand very well that not everyone agrees with that and that is the fine with me because I am not he enemy. I just read the Scriptures and believe them.
I personally believe that the unborn child is just that, an unborn child. Numerous Scriptures point to the personhood of the unborn child. King David, for example, acknowledges God’s creative purposes in the womb. ‘For you formed my inward parts; you covered me in my mothers womb… Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed’ (Psalm 139:13, 16). The prophet Isaiah wrote: ‘The Lord called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name (Isaiah 49:1). The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah: ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations’ (Jeremiah 1:5). In the New Testament, the Greek word brephos is used to describe the babe John who leaps in his mother’s womb when she meets Mary the mother of Jesus. The word brephos, as used in Scripture, describes the unborn, the new-born and the infant. (1 Peter 2:2, Acts 7:19, Luke 18:15). Indeed, the Scriptures make no differentiation between the unborn child and the new-born child, and neither should we.
It's really worth reading, by the way.
I just reposted showing you got a "real answer" by page two, if not sooner. I don't know whether you missed it twice in this thread or just choose to ignore it, but here it is again:
Food laws were abolished in the New Testament as they were no longer need after Christ. But immorality laws remain and here is why:
Mark 7:18-23 And He said to them, "Are you also as lacking in understanding? Don't you realize that nothing going into a man from the outside can defile him? For it doesn't go into his heart but into the stomach and is eliminated." As a result, He made all foods clean. Then He said, "What comes out of a person—that defiles him. For from within, out of people's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immoralities, thefts, murders, adulteries, greed, evil actions, deceit, lewdness, stinginess, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a person."
And one more thing....all sin is not equal!!! If you think kit is, show me the verse. God says all sin leads to death, not that murder is equal to swearing when you stub your toe.....
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
All sin leads to death so that there is only one way to Salvation, Christ Jesus.
Furthermore, the Bible says God is just!
If all sin is equal in God's eyes, why would He be so unjust as to impose a more severe penalty on one sin than another? Especially when there are verses that specifically say the punishment should fit the crime.
I wouldn't mind discussing this in another topic actually. I do have some thoughts that I think are worth pursuing, but this is somewhat off-topic here since this topic seems to be more about the subjective nature of sin than the objective view. That, and I already said I wouldn't participate in this thread since I'm now wearing the moderator hat here.
No problem. I was responding to that claim made in a previos post, didn't remember who said it but I thought it was related since the OP asks why it is considered worse than other sins.
Personally, I don't see what else there is to say if Ingbert doesn't have anything to say about the Scriptures quoted.
There may have been a misunderstanding on this. Let me see if I can help out a little.
“For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”
That one verse seems to be the cause of this misunderstanding. At first glance it would appear to make all sins equal. But
James is teaching that no matter how small the violation of God’s law may seem to you, it still makes the person guilty before God. God’s law is viewed as a unit and any violation makes the person a sinner.
Although all sins are not equally damaging or heinous, they all shatter that unity [of the law] and render men transgressors, much like hitting a window with a hammer at only one point will shatter and destroy the whole window.” “Guilty of all” is not to be understood “in the sense of having violated every command, but in the sense of having violated the law’s unity. One transgression makes fulfilling the law’s most basic commands—to love God perfectly and to love one’s neighbor as oneself—impossible.” Another thought is that “The Bible does not say all sins are equal. Stealing a candy bar is not the same as committing adultery. Thinking about murder is not as bad as committing the act. Every sin does bring guilt. It takes only a single sin to make a person a sinner. No act of obedience can compensate for acts of disobedience.”