Who would like to join me?? in going through Revelations???

[Bob Jones]

Rev 1:13

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks In the midst of the complete revelation of God

one like unto the Son of man, Christ

clothed with a garment Garments are works, beginning with fig leaf aprons. Clothed in works...

down to the foot, The foot is part of the walk...life. This represents his work all the way to his incarnation.

and girt about the paps "breastplate"

with a golden girdle. Divine righteousness.

Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

In the midst of the complete revelation of God was Christ girt in his works even unto his incarnation with divine righteousness.

 

[Bob Jones]

Rev 1:14

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

14 His head His authority. The first half of this verse references the law of the leper. The leper is supposed to shave his head or lose his authority, as the Father left Christ on the cross.

and his hairs The leper is examined thoroughly. Lu 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

were white like wool, When the leprosy has fully covered him to the head so that his head is white, he is pronounced clean. After Christ bore our sins he was clean.

as white as snow; A reference to bearing our sin (leprosy) since we are white as snow AFTER our sin has been removed.

and his eyes Understanding

were as a flame of fire; The fire of the Holy Spirit that burns up or purifies. This is a reference to the temptation of Satan that man should know good and evil. Christ does.

His authority and every detail of his life had been thoroughly examined and found to be pure though he had borne our sin. He understood Good and Evil.

 

[Bob Jones]

Rev 1:15

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

15 And his feet His incarnate life

like unto fine brass, The word for brass in Hebrew pronounced nekh-awsh has a pun pronounced naw-khawsh. They have the same consonants and different vowels. The pun means serpent. (The vowels were added to hide that they are the same word.)

How was Jesus' incarnate life like a serpent? He was as wise as a serpent.

Mt 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

It is also a reference to the brass serpent of Moses which is a clear picture of Christ on the cross as he bore our sin.

as if they burned in a furnace; This points to Shadrach, Mishak and Abednego. His walk led him to his own fiery furnace of tribulation wherein he was purified. He learned obedience through suffering.

and his voice as the sound of many waters. His word is represented by all the water in the Bible. It can destroy as in the flood, or give life. Wherever there is water it should be interpreted as the Word of God.

 

[GodSpeaks]

OOps I read tribulation but answered rapture...

You are correct. I could have said that Jesus' tribulation is THE Great Tribulation and that is past.
And Revelation appears to be a Rosetta stone talking about the cross using the symbols of the OT rather than some future event.

I would have to disagree with that. The tribulation Jesus went through when he was on this earth is over, but that is not THE Great Tribulation spoken of in the book of Revelation, which is the come when the anti-christ is in power. Nothing that has happen or ever will, will be as terrible as at that time

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[Michael Collum]

Thank you Bob for all your work on this thread .

 

[Bob Jones]

Rev 1:16

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

16 And he had in his right hand Think sheep and goats, He had in his spiritual works...

seven stars: All the stars. The children of Abraham are described as dust, sand of teh sea and stars. Without the word, washed by the word, and letting their light shine. The light of the stars is their holiness, made holy by Christ, since we are made like him. All the church

and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: And he spoke both Law and Grace, Justice and Mercy.

and his countenance His appearance before men

was as the sun shineth in his strength. The sun is his Holiness. The moon his grace.

He had in his spiritual works, the church and he spoke law and grace. His appearance before men was Holy.

 

[Bob Jones]

Rev 1:17

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

17 And when I saw him, When I understood him

I fell at his feet as dead. To die in Christ is to live. I lived in his life...
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, His spiritual works spoke to me.

Fear not; I am the first and the last: These are words of comfort. As we saw above they represent him as greatest and least. Fear not, for though I am the greatest, I am also the least.

When I understood him, I lived in him, and his spiritual works spoke to me saying Fear not, Though I am the Lion, I am also the Lamb.

 

[Bob Jones]

I would have to disagree with that. The tribulation Jesus went through when he was on this earth is over, but that is not THE Great Tribulation spoken of in the book of Revelation, which is the come when the anti-christ is in power. Nothing that has happen or ever will, will be as terrible as at that time

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You are welcome to disagree, but what is your interpretation based on? The presumption that Revelation is speaking about the future. And as I mentioned before, but you deny, you are looking forward to the anti-Christ for the fulfillment of scripture. Just seems out of place to me. The verse you quote easily speaks of Christ's tribulation. You have to battle it out with preterists and others as to whose tribulation was worse. Simple. No one has ever, or will ever suffer like Christ did.

Did you hear your own words? You say, by way of your interpretation, that he people in the tribulation will suffer more than Christ. The most they can suffer is for their own sins. Christ suffered for the sins of us all.

The real question is, are you going to give sensus plenior a fair shake or deem it to be false based on your opinion of the tribulation? If it taught something other than the Trinity you could discard it easily, but are you as sure of your opinion on the tribulation as you are of the Trinity?

 

[Bob Jones]

Thank you Bob for all your work on this thread .

Thanks for the note. I was beginning to think I had put you to sleep. ;-)

I have been wanting to tackle it but have been avoiding it. I hope you are seeing that, as you said previously, the words mean many things at the same time. The words are symbols that take us to the idea being communicated, and we can pop out of the idea with another symbol which focuses our attention on a different facet of the same idea. I suspect this is similar to what you call the spokes.

I am doing this on the fly now, so feel free to correct me and/or add additional scripture witnesses to what is being said.

 

[GodSpeaks]

..... are you as sure of your opinion on the tribulation as you are of the Trinity?

Yes, but I'm not going to argue these points for 50 more posts. It won't change your mind

 

[Bob Jones]

Yes, but I'm not going to argue these points for 50 more posts. It won't change your mind

You are correct. You totally ignore the experimental nature of the discussion of sensus plenior and call your opinion equal to doctrine, there is not much point in discussing anything. I am sorry you feel it necessary to judge a matter before it is heard. May the Lord bless you.

 

[Bob Jones]

Rev 1:18

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;
If there was any doubt that this was Christ in verse 13 he makes it clear that it is him now.


and have the keys The mystery of the keys.Eglon the fat king represents Christ. Fat is God's portion, and the dirty things came out of him. This shows his deity and that he had been made to be sin. He was slain by a two-edged sword::the word. The sword was wielded in the flesh but taken from the right side. So God's judgment was true, though exercised by those acting in the flesh. The door was locked and a key was required to see the dead king. (Judges 3:15ff)



Other keys.
1Ch 9:27 the key opens the temple, which is a shadow of Christ.
Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder;



What are the things that are on people's shoulders?
The garment that Japheth and Shem used to cover Noah.
Hagar carried bread and a jar of water.
Rebekah had a pitcher of water
Israelites carried unleavened bread.
The high priest has two stones on the shoulder of the ephod.
Joshua had twelve men take a stone.
Abimalech took the bough of a tree.
Samson took the doors to the gate.
The children of Israel bore the ark of the covenant.
Job would take a written book.
The child will have the government.
Their riches.

All these were carried on the shoulder and all are shadows of Christ.
The keys all point to Christ.

Are the keys to the kingdom the keys to the riddles of the Old Testament? Did Jesus share the keys for unlocking the shadows of the law with Peter? Is that how the uneducated fisherman became the first theologian and leader of the twelve?

Children in our fellowship who have learned to see the shadows discern from the parted seas, split rock and veil, etc. that the horror of the cross was when God was torn, Father from Son, while Phd's of theology were preaching the horror of a physical death on the cross.

of hell The word is Hades which which is made from alpha and eido meaning the beginning of understanding.

and of death. To die is to gain. Death in sensus plenior is life.

I am Christ, I have the keys to understanding and life.

 

[JesusLovesAll]

Bob seems to be on a roll lol, you have not put me to sleep mate..
I do suffer from ADHD so I get side tracked, thats why you find me posting everywhere else but x or y...

 

[Bob Jones]

Rev 1:19

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

19 Write Do a work with your hands

When there are three things they are a facet of the Trinity idea, Father, Son, Holy Ghost or Word, Works, Life, or hearing, seeing, walking, etc.

the things which thou hast seen, the Word that you have understood.

and the things which are, the Works which are happening now.

and the things which shall be hereafter; the Life to come.

The word, works and life in heaven and earth are one testimony of Christ. The three things are one thing because of prophetic recapitulation. One story can tell all three. John will tell the story many times using different images.

 

[Bob Jones]

Rev 1:20

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. He is now going to tell us about it.

The seven stars are the angels Angels means messengers. The fullness of those letting their light shine is now specifically called out by seven messengers, whose messages comprise the whole word of God. Matthew, Peter, Luke, John, Paul, James, Jude

Mark was the scribe for Peter and Paul wrote Hebrews. This is an endorsement of the NT cannon of scripture by author.

of the seven churches:

and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. The full testimony of Christ is now the church.

Since there are two testimonies, of the 'angels' and of the church, one is heavenly and the other earthly.

 

[Bob Jones]

End of chapter. Some notes on the method.

This method of interpretation was available in the first century. The 'odd' way that the NT authors used the OT in apparently out of context ways is completely explained by this method.

I have not found evidence of it's use since the first century. It was hidden in two ways: The church used the Septuagint, which removes much of the double entendre. Then vowels were added to Hebrew about 600 AD which separates a word that means many things into multiple words. Since modern Hebrew does not use vowels, it is likely that it was done purely to hide the images of Christ.

The method was probably taught to the religious leaders when Jesus was twelve by Jesus. When Jesus was preparing to become an adult in the Temple he would have asked "What are these stones". But rather than asking about a pile of rocks, he would have asked about Jacob's pillow, the water producing rock, the stones that David put in his shepherds vessel, etc. While he asked about them, he painted the picture of the Messiah that the temple workers had never seen before.

When they were called a brood of vipers, it was because they were liars, like their father the serpent. They knew exactly who Jesus was from the sensus plenior but had started lies about the Messiah so that the people wouldn't recognize him.

I am sharing the answers to the riddles without explaining in too much detail how they were arrived at. But they all are required to have at least two or three witness scriptures. And when something is used allegorically, it must be used that way everywhere it occurs in scripture. So there is no free-for -all invention involved. It is correlation.

I doubt you can find an interpretation that is more dependent upon scripture interpreting scripture than this method.

 

[GodSpeaks]

Yes Christ suffered terribly, but the great tribulation is not a matter of an indiviudal suffering punishment for sins, as Chirst did for us. It's an event that comes upon all the world to try them

Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

If the great tribulation is already past, then we would be in the millennium and we certainly are not experiencing 1000 years of peace on this earth right now, neither is this heaven.

You are correct. You totally ignore the experimental nature of the discussion of sensus plenior and call your opinion equal to doctrine, there is not much point in discussing anything. I am sorry you feel it necessary to judge a matter before it is heard. May the Lord bless you.

I have studied many views if Revelation down through the years and this is not the conclusion I have come to. This is not the only way to arrive at the "deeper meaning" (sensus plenior). Everyone is not going to agree on this so not accepting it does not mean that they are ignoring it.

 

[Bob Jones]

You have ignored my posts just to be argumentative.

1. You have ignored that it is an experiment and insist on arguing as if I am teaching a doctrine. I have asked for others to review the observations in their context, yet you ignore that and insist on ignoring the method and focusing on a secondary doctrine as though it were a primary doctrine.
2. You have ignored that it is not the literal and you keep trying to bring some literal interpretation to it. You will really be lost when I show that Cain, and Esau and even the beast of Rev 17 paint pictures of Christ. It is a Christocentric (hence NOT LITERAL) method of interpretation. I am sorry that you you cannot bring yourself to consider that Christ is in all the scriptures.
3. I have searched for seven years to find an individual or a single reference past the first century of anyone who has used it. If your claim is that you have seen it all before, then please provide me with a reference and I will be eternally grateful. If you are able to produce sensus plenior for these passages please don't let us stop you since you are aware of many ways to do it and I will humbly become your student.
4. Your only arguement is that you do not agree. Fine. Don't agree. I am not asking for agreement. Had you not ignored my previous posts you would see that I am asking for criticism from the scriptures not from your opinoin.

You aren't even arguing the topic. So far, the topic you wish to argue about has not even been mentioned in the passages considered. You refuse to let the issue be heard and have already decided it based on your opinion.

So please stop baiting me for an arguement.

And by the way, 1000 means king. Reigning for 1000 years in the sensus plenior means to reign as king, and has nothing to do with a millenium.

So as I said, Lord bless you, but we do not have a basis for conversation.

 

[GodSpeaks]

No Bob, I'm not arguing nor baiting That's not my style. If I was, I would being spending all my time on a long discourse here, instead of refering to only a couple of statements. Of course Christ is all through the Bible.

I thought according to the OP this thread was open for all to discuss. I was merely stating a few times how I see some things in Revelation too, this last post with a verse that pertained to the issue. I'm sorry you are so upset just because someone might not agree. You see, we are all denominations here, not just one, so we don't always see everything exactly the same way.


God bless

 

[Bob Jones]

I have studied many views if Revelation down through the years and this is not the conclusion I have come to. This is not the only way to arrive at the "deeper meaning" (sensus plenior). Everyone is not going to agree on this so not accepting it does not mean that they are ignoring it.

Just so others are not distracted, sensus plenior technically means "deeper meaning" but it means more than that in the Christian conversation. It means the deeper meaning intended by God and not known by the human author. Many have chosen to believe that it does not exist, and they attempt to explain the novel ways in which Jesus and the NT authors used the OT in novel ways. Of those who believe it exists, they almost universally say that we should not try to reproduce it, since we are not authorized to as the apostles were.

Those who don't know how to do something think it is magic. I am attempting to show that the method was common and known, and it is teachable and reproducible. That the way the apostles used the OT was normative and that we are expected to use it the same way. I don't really care if Jesus returns today or after the boogy man comes. I will be happy to greet him when he comes. And just the smallest amount of research will show that the popular opinion expressed previously is a rather late invention in church history. And frankly, there are few who have come to that conclusion without being led there by others. "Interpreting it literally except when you can't" would be a serious mistake if applied to books in the genre of "Alice in Wonderland". Interpreting riddle literally is intellectual suicide. There can be no doubt in that Revelation is chocked full of riddle. There are many good teachers who attempt to read it literally, and they always compromise the methods they use to interpret the rest of scripture. And they can not come to agreement.

The hypothesis of sensus plenior is that if you use the rules, you come to agreement because it is correlation of scripture. Welcome to the experiment.

On sensus plenior, is there a need for it? If by using your hermeneutic you can't find the passages in the OT that Jesus used to teach that there is no marriage in heaven, then his condemnation of the Jews saying that they did not know the scriptures or the power of God, should cause you to re-examine your answer.