Who Will Be The Two Witnesses?

Who do you think

  • John the Baptist

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • King David

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • James, Brother of Jesus

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mary Magdalene

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mary, the Mother of Jesus

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    11
Good point about two olive trees...note Revelation's verse is reflected in Zechariah. A word search for two olive brings forth this:

1Ki_6:23 And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.
1Ki_6:32 The two doors also were of olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees.
Isa_17:6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the LORD God of Israel.
Zec_4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zec_4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec_4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Rev_11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
7 verses found, 16 matches

1 Kings 2 verses found 4 matches
Isaiah 1 verse found 2 matches
Zechariah 3 verses found 7 matches
Revelation 1 verse found 3 matches
To me, the parallels are too evident to not be given consideration.
  • John and Zechariah both not only mention the trees, but also "candlesticks".
  • Zechariah says that his is filled with "oil" and John says his are filled with "power" of God - which is obviously the Holy Spirit, Who is also represented by "oil" in the Bible.
  • Both John and Zechariah mention that their "candlesticks" stand before God on the earth.
  • Zechariah says the "sons of oil" are the two olive trees - are not John's two olive trees as well?
-and-
  • if Zechariah says clearly that the "sons of oil" are the "Word of God" - the Bible - what is the only thing that can be said is the "offspring of the Holy Spirit"? The Bible, as well. I'm of the opinion that Two Witnesses, the Old Testament and New Testament, are depicted symbolically as real men for the purpose of bringing to our attention Satan's studied plan to wage war against the Word of God.
 
No brother we agree!

I do not believe they will be anyone in heaven right now either. It makes no sense what so ever and neither does it become Biblical that God would take men to heaven without dying and then return them to die. What would be the point of that when Raptured people will not have that happen to them.

I agree that they will be post raptured men who come to Christ and begin a preaching ministry from the Temple in Jerusalem.

How do we totally disagree????????
Then who are the elders that are seated around the throne of God said to have been redeemed of God, and doesn't 2 Kings 2:1 specifically say that the Lord was about to take Elijah to heaven?
 
Did anyone read @Ravindran 's excellent link? If not here is John MacArthur's response. http://www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ011513/who-are-the-two-witnesses-in-revelation-11

Who Are the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11?
Revelation 11 July 02, 2014BQ011513
And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. (Revelation 11:3-4)
The connection between this vision of the two preachers and the previous passage (vv. 1–2) should be clear. They are among God’s unique witnesses who will proclaim His message of judgment during the final stages of the Gentile trampling on Jerusalem—and will preach the gospel so that the Jewish remnant can believe and enjoy God’s protection.
Witnesses is the plural form of martus, from which the English word martyr derives, since so many witnesses of Jesus Christ in the early church paid with their lives. Since it is always used in the New Testament to refer to persons, the two witnesses must be actual people, not movements, as some commentators have held. There are two witnesses because the Bible requires the testimony of two people to confirm a fact or verify truth (Deut. 17:6; 19:15; Matt. 18:16; John 8:17; 2 Cor. 13:1; 1 Tim. 5:19; Heb. 10:28).
It will be their responsibility to prophesy. Prophecy in the New Testament does not necessarily refer to predicting the future. Its primary meaning is “to speak forth,” “to proclaim,” or “to preach.” The two witnesses will proclaim to the world that the disasters occurring during the last half of the Tribulation are the judgments of God. They will warn that God’s final outpouring of judgment and eternal hell will follow. At the same time, they will preach the gospel, calling people to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The period of their ministry is twelve hundred and sixty days, the last three and one-half years of the Tribulation, when Antichrist’s forces oppress the city of Jerusalem (v. 2), and many Jews are sheltered in the wilderness (12:6). The fact that they are actual preachers and not symbols of institutions or movements is indicated by the description of their clothing and behavior which follows.
clothed in sackcloth.?” (11:3b)
Sackcloth
was rough, heavy, coarse cloth worn in ancient times as a symbol of mourning, distress, grief, and humility. Jacob put on sackcloth when he thought Joseph had been killed (Gen. 37:34). David ordered the people to wear sackcloth after the murder of Abner (2 Sam. 3:31) and wore it himself during the plague God sent in response to his sin of numbering the people (1 Chron. 21:16). King Jehoram wore sackcloth during the siege of Samaria (2 Kings 6:30), as did King Hezekiah when Jerusalem was attacked (2 Kings 19:1). Job (Job 16:15), Isaiah (Isa. 20:2), and Daniel (Dan. 9:3) also wore sackcloth.
The two witnesses will put on sackcloth as an object lesson to express their great sorrow for the wretched and unbelieving world, racked by God’s judgments, overrun by demon hordes, and populated by wicked, sinful people who refuse to repent. They will also mourn because of the desecration of the temple, the oppression of Jerusalem, and the ascendancy of Antichrist.
These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. (11:4)
The question of who the two witnesses will be has intrigued Bible scholars over the years, and numerous possibilities have been suggested. John identifies them merely as the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. That enigmatic description is drawn from Zechariah 4:1–14.
Zechariah’s prophecy looks forward to the restoration of Israel in the Millennium (cf. Zech. 3:8–10). The olive trees and lampstands symbolize the light of revival, since olive oil was commonly used in lamps. The connecting of the lamps to the trees is intended to depict a constant, spontaneous, automatic supply of oil flowing from the olive trees into the lamps. That symbolizes the truth that God will not bring salvation blessing from human power, but by the power of the Holy Spirit (cf. Zech. 4:6). Like Joshua and Zerubbabel, the two witnesses will lead a spiritual revival of Israel culminating in the building of a temple. Their preaching will be instrumental in Israel’s national conversion (Rev. 11:13; cf. Rom. 11:4–5, 26), and the temple associated with that conversion will be the millennial temple.
While it is impossible to be dogmatic about the specific identity of these two preachers, there are a number of reasons that suggest that they may be Moses and Elijah.
First, the miracles they will perform (destroying their enemies with fire, withholding rain, turning water into blood, and striking the earth with plagues) are similar to the judgments inflicted in the Old Testament by Moses and Elijah for the purpose of stimulating repentance. Elijah called down fire from heaven (2 Kings 1:10, 12) and pronounced a three-and-one-half-year drought on the land (1 Kings 17:1; James 5:17)—the same length as the drought brought by the two witnesses (Rev. 11:6). Moses turned the waters of the Nile into blood (Ex. 7:17–21) and announced the other plagues on Egypt recorded in Exodus chapters 7–12.
Second, both the Old Testament and Jewish tradition expected Moses and Elijah to return in the future. Malachi 4:5 predicted the return of Elijah, and the Jews believed that God’s promise to raise up a prophet like Moses (Deut. 18:15, 18) necessitated his return (cf. John 1:21; 6:14; 7:40). Jesus’ statement in Matthew 11:14 that “if you are willing to accept it, John [the Baptist] himself is Elijah who was to come” does not necessarily preclude Elijah’s future return. Since the Jews did not accept Jesus, John did not fulfill that prophecy. He came “in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord” (Luke 1:17).
Third, both Moses and Elijah (perhaps representing the Law and the Prophets) appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration, the preview of the Second Coming (Matt. 17:3?).
Fourth, both left the earth in unusual ways. Elijah never died, but was transported to heaven in a fiery chariot (2 Kings 2:11–12), and God supernaturally buried Moses’ body in a secret location (Deut. 34:5–6; Jude 9). The statement of Hebrews 9:27 that “it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment” does not rule out Moses’ return, since there are other rare exceptions to that general statement (such as Lazarus; John 11:14, 38–44).
Since the text does not specifically identify these two preachers, the view defended above, like all other views regarding their identity, must remain speculation.
 
Then who are the elders that are seated around the throne of God said to have been redeemed of God, and doesn't 2 Kings 2:1 specifically say that the Lord was about to take Elijah to heaven?

Always supply the Book-chapter and verse lest we assume.

IF you are referring to Revelation 4:4 then ..............
"Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads."

Seems that there are 3 that are the most popular:
(1) a leader from each of the 12 tribes of Israel plus each of the 12 apostles,
(2) twenty-four godly men from throughout biblical history and,
(3) a special class of angels.

Now consider Matthew 19:28..........
"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

The men and women of corporate national Israel are not raptured. The twelve apostles will serve as the judges of Israel during the Millennium. According to the Lord's promise, they are to sit on earthly thrones. In addition, John the Revelator is also John the Apostle. Did he see himself around the throne? Did he fail to recognize the other apostles? The text does not read twelve plus twelve; it speaks of twenty-four thrones. Therefore it does not seem that the twenty-four elders are the tribal leaders of Israel and the twelve apostles.

Current established pre-tribulational models maintain that the Day of the Lord, and thus the Tribulation, begins with the breaking of the first seal. If this is the case, and the Church is raptured before the Tribulation, then it is understood that the Church must be found in heaven as Jesus prepares to open the seven-sealed scroll. The twenty-four elders, the men who John sees immediately after his vision begins in the fourth chapter of Revelation, are recognized as representative of the Church and as proof of the pre-tribulation rapture.

Then another thing to consider is the fact that they are wearing crowns. These crowns are not diadem crowns worn by those who are royal by nature, which would have been the case had these been celestial beings. These crowns are the stephanos crowns, the crowns of an overcomer; the type of crown given as rewards to the members of the church at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

That seems to be telling us that they represent the church.
 
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Good post Major. To be honest, I never thought about the who of the 24 elders. I shall think on it.

As for Enoch - a con would be that he is not Jewish. He was before there were Jews.
 
Seems to be a good case for Moses and Elijah
Also could be Enoch.

Elijah cos Jews expecting his return anyway.
Enoch cos he saw God, and did not die, although, Moses saw God face to face. By Witnesses I'm thinking those who SAW God.
But then with Moses there seems to be dispute over his body as said in Jude. I think be amazing if Moses was the witness as he wanted to set foot in the promised land but did not make it, I mean all those years wandering in the desert (!). Also it fits with when Jesus was transfigured they were with him as witnesses to His glory.

Interesting topic. Not ruling out could be unknown people, but I don't think they could necessarily be witnesses. If so, anyone could claim to be a witness, you and I could claim the same thing. All those people that have Jerusalem Syndrome and messiah complexes claiming they are the christ, apparently the mental hospitals in Jerusalem are full of them.
 
But Jesus showed that "Elijah" had returned in John the Baptist. Wouldn't that be the Spirit that empowered Elijah and Jesus and John as in the last days I'll pour out my Spirit? And I know Jesus wasn't talking about reincarnation! :D
 
Given that John the Baptist was born of a woman - perhaps? he was the one spirit driven and the "real" Elijah will show as a witness? I'm trying to reconcile the "spirit driven" scripture Major mentioned and that I wasn't really aware of before.
 
I was googling around about the 2 witnesses when I found this video by Steven Ben-DeNoon (anyone else heard of him? I haven't checked him out yet. He appears a very ? Jewish Christian). Anywho, he states unequivocally, that the 2 witnesses are Elijah and Moses. No great surprise as this appears to be the top net choices. He uses alot of the same scriptures as already seen but claims this particular verse indicates Christ confirms it:
Joh_5:45
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there isonethat accuseth you,evenMoses, in whom ye trust.
Does anyone think this is a valid assertion?


Video is in the next post. (stop groaning)
 
"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

The men and women of corporate national Israel are not raptured. The twelve apostles will serve as the judges of Israel during the Millennium. According to the Lord's promise, they are to sit on earthly thrones.

Current established pre-tribulational models maintain that the Day of the Lord, and thus the Tribulation, begins with the breaking of the first seal.
Elijah was taken to heaven where God's glory is and that demands he have an immortal, redeemed body. Surely, Moses and Enoch are there too, immortal and disqualified as candidates for the Two Witnesses. I believe the 24 "redeemed" Elders are there too b/c what you call the "Rapture" I call the Second Coming and what you call the Second Coming, I call the "Post Millennium Marriage Supper of the Lamb" when New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to Earth "as a bride adorned for her husband":

Jesus says His Second Coming is horizontal across the sky (Matthew 24:27) not vertical to the ground and Paul indicates the very same thing in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where Jesus stays airborne when He comes for His saints, leaving behind a destroyed Earth with no human inhabitants as described in the thread "Life After People". No nation, including Israel, will be around to be judged at this time.

Paul also says what you call the "Rapture" takes place "at the last trump", the final trumpet, where "the Lord God shall blow the trumpet" according to Zechariah. This "trump of God" is blown lastly by the Lord God after the angels are finished blowing their Seven Trumpets - that is why it is called the last trumpet, last meaning that it is blown after the other trumpets have finished sounding. At the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, Jesus' feet will touch the ground when He comes after the millennium with His saints in New Jerusalem to resurrect the dead "after the thousand years are finished" to judge, and execute the wicked. (1 Corinthians 15:52; Zechariah 9:14; Revelation 21:1-3; Revelation 20:4-9).
 
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I was googling around about the 2 witnesses when I found this video by Steven Ben-DeNoon (anyone else heard of him? I haven't checked him out yet. He appears a very ? Jewish Christian). Anywho, he states unequivocally, that the 2 witnesses are Elijah and Moses. No great surprise as this appears to be the top net choices. He uses alot of the same scriptures as already seen but claims this particular verse indicates Christ confirms it:
Joh_5:45
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there isonethat accuseth you,evenMoses, in whom ye trust.
Does anyone think this is a valid assertion?


Video is in the next post. (stop groaning)
Never heard of him. But since Elijah was taken to heaven (2 Kings 2:1) where God's glory is, he would have to have been clothed with immortality (Exodus 33:18-20), thus rendering him disqualified as a candidate for the Two Witnesses, so I'd have to disagree with Mr. Steven.
 
Moses died... to die again just doesn't fit with how I see the scriptures - appointed once to die, and though anything is indeed possible for God, how can Moses live physically again and die again for 3.5 days and then raised from the dead...
 
Elijah was taken to heaven where God's glory is and that demands he have an immortal, redeemed body. Surely, Moses and Enoch are there too, immortal and disqualified as candidates for the Two Witnesses. I believe the 24 "redeemed" Elders are there too b/c what you call the "Rapture" I call the Second Coming and what you call the Second Coming, I call the "Post Millennium Marriage Supper of the Lamb" when New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to Earth "as a bride adorned for her husband":

Jesus says His Second Coming is horizontal across the sky (Matthew 24:27) not vertical to the ground and Paul indicates the very same thing in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where Jesus stays airborne when He comes for His saints, leaving behind a destroyed Earth with no human inhabitants as described in the thread "Life After People". No nation, including Israel, will be around to be judged at this time.

Paul also says what you call the "Rapture" takes place "at the last trump", the final trumpet, where "the Lord God shall blow the trumpet" according to Zechariah. This "trump of God" is blown lastly by the Lord God after the angels are finished blowing their Seven Trumpets - that is why it is called the last trumpet, last meaning that it is blown after the other trumpets have finished sounding. At the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, Jesus' feet will touch the ground when He comes after the millennium with His saints in New Jerusalem to resurrect the dead "after the thousand years are finished" to judge, and execute the wicked. (1 Corinthians 15:52; Zechariah 9:14; Revelation 21:1-3; Revelation 20:4-9).

We still have a ways to go don't we Phoneman?

Yes, I agree about Elijah having a glorified body. EVERONE who has gone to heaven would have to have a glorified body else they would have been vaporized by the presence of God Himself because He is a flaming fire of righteousness.

You once again have confused the Rapture with the Second Coming. They are two separate events. You seem able to quote those Scriptures that support your thinking but what about others such as Zechariah 14:1-5................

"Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward."

Does that sound "horizontal"?????

I encourage you to expand your theology outside of the SDA dogma to include ALL of the Scriptures Phoneman.
 
You once again have confused the Rapture with the Second Coming. They are two separate events. You seem able to quote those Scriptures that support your thinking but what about others such as Zechariah 14:1-5...On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward."
I encourage you to expand your theology outside of the SDA dogma to include ALL of the Scriptures Phoneman.
Yes, those who have received glorified, immortal bodies cannot be the Two Witnesses.

Zechariah 14:1-5 is a description of the Post-Millennium return of Jesus, the angels, and the saints who had gone to be citizens of the heavenly city at the Second Coming. It refers not to your "end of the 7-year tribulation Second Coming of Jesus" for the following reason:

Zechariah 9:14 says the Lord God shall blow His Trumpet, which Paul calls the "Trump of God" which he also says is the "Last Trump" which is sounded when He descends and we ascend which means that it cannot be sounded until only after the previous Seven Trumpets have sounded which means your "Rapture" can't take place until after the other Seven Trumpets have sounded which completely unravels Jesuit Futurism.
I encourage you to expand your theology outside of Jesuit dogma to include ALL of the Scriptures Major.
 
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OK - I didn't understand what you were talking about before Major - "glorified bodies" can't die (duh)....I'll have to think about that because the Millenial Kingdom doesn't make sense to me now.
 
OK - I didn't understand what you were talking about before Major - "glorified bodies" can't die (duh)....I'll have to think about that because the Millenial Kingdom doesn't make sense to me now.

In the millenial kingdom everyone who is "living" will have the exact same bodies we do now, subject to injury and death, but will be healthy and live much longer. See Isaiah for details.
 
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