Who Pays For The Sins?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Big Moose, Aug 25, 2014.

  1. I had Ezekiel 18 as a lesson to teach in Sunday School this week. It was very interesting in that God reasons as to who pays for whose sins. Do the children pay for the father's sins? Can one say, "I am in this such and such position in life because of what my parents did"? "It is my parents fault that I have these problems." Here is the chapter, respond with what moves you.

    Ezekiel 18:
    1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

    ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
    And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

    3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

    4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
    The soul of the father
    As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
    The soul who sins shall die.

    5 But if a man is just
    And does what is lawful and right;
    6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
    Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
    Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
    Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
    7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
    But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
    Has robbed no one by violence,
    But has given his bread to the hungry
    And covered the naked with clothing;
    8 If he has not exacted usury
    Nor taken any increase,
    But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
    And executed true judgment between man and man;
    9 If he has walked in My statutes
    And kept My judgments faithfully—
    He is just;
    He shall surely live!”
    Says the Lord God.

    10 “If he begets a son who is a robber
    Or a shedder of blood,
    Who does any of these things
    11 And does none of those duties,
    But has eaten on the mountains
    Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
    12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
    Robbed by violence,
    Not restored the pledge,
    Lifted his eyes to the idols,
    Or committed abomination;
    13 If he has exacted usury
    Or taken increase—
    Shall he then live?
    He shall not live!
    If he has done any of these abominations,
    He shall surely die;
    His blood shall be upon him.

    14 “If, however, he begets a son
    Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
    And considers but does not do likewise;
    15 Who has not eaten on the mountains,
    Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
    Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
    16 Has not oppressed anyone,
    Nor withheld a pledge,
    Nor robbed by violence,
    But has given his bread to the hungry
    And covered the naked with clothing;
    17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor
    And not received usury or increase,
    But has executed My judgments
    And walked in My statutes—
    He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
    He shall surely live!

    18 “As for his father,
    Because he cruelly oppressed,
    Robbed his brother by violence,
    And did what is not good among his people,
    Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.

    Turn and Live
    19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

    21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

    24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

    25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

    30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
  2. The Scriptures also say that G-d will visit the sins in a family through many generations. Thank G-d He does that, looking at the offspring of the wicked, to see if their intent is to continue the sins. When He sees offspring who want to live righteously, G-d gives them everything they need, in order to assure them His help to do right. Of course, this is written so that we understand it, because He already know those who are His.
  3. Actually Jeramiah 31 says that everyone will pay for their own sins.

    30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

    A New Covenant

    31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    While people like to claim generational curse, they’re not real. What God is saying in Exodus 34 is that undealt with sin in the father’s life will be bringing sensitivity to the son for that sin. Think alcoholism. Science has confirmed this as they bread fear of something into mice for three generations. It’s all about the heart and the heart is every cell in your body. When that sin is dealt with in the heart, it’s done with. Jesus died for all our sins so don’t confuse sensitivity to a specific sin with judgment. Even when asked who sinned, the parents or the blind man, Jesus said NEITHER, John 9:1-3. To a child of God there is no curse.
    Big Moose likes this.
  4. So... You have to differentiate between Physical sins that have Physical consequences and Spiritual sins that generally only have consequences on the "Sinner".....

    For example... If a mother drinks a lot of alcohol during pregnancy - the Child pays a considerably heavier price than the mother....

    Now... a different woman may heavily drink AFTER her child bearing years are over and no one pays but herself...

    Or.. The father may drink heavily before fathering a Child - and there may be no consequence... or there may be a consequence to the child...

    Or... Say you eat lots of raw oysters... and you suffer food poisoning.... Your son (Who lives Kosher and doesn't eat Oysters) will not suffer for your choices....

    Science has validated that there are certain actions that have consequences to 3 and 4 generations.... For example... A female's High exposure to certain toxic heavy metals and certain nutritional deficiencies before and during pregnancy has been shown to have effects that can go 4 generations....

    The curse announced in Exodus that an Israelite who marries a Moabite will carry a curse for 10 generations... That specific length - 10 generations - generally shakes out as the time it takes to work out the consequences of Incest.... and in certain cultures - marrying very close kin - such as step brothers and step sisters was not disallowed....

    On the other hand - Say your dad refuses to accept Christ - but is otherwise a "Good man"... He pays the price spiritually, but his kid generally bears no spiritual consequences...

    Big Moose likes this.
  5. Is the "death" the Lord speaks of as paying the price, or bearing the guilt, the death spoken of in Revelation 21:8 ?
    8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
  6. #6 CCW95A, Aug 28, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2014
    For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Because of the "disobedience" Adam we all were made sinners. Once our first parents sinned, all of humanity suffers from what they did. You can not put mankind back into Adam, and start over to fix the problem. The Lord God knew before he created the Heavens, and the earth, and even Adam what would happen, so God preempted Adam failure by using his foreknowledge knowing what every single human being reaction would be to hearing the Gospel. Having this information, he safely protected those whom he foreknew and placed them in His Son Jesus Christ. When the time was right God sent his Son to earth to not, only destroy the works of the Devil, but to bring salvation back to man by being obedient to the Law, and death which caused all of his "offspring" to be declared righteous, not because of anything we did, but what Jesus did. We have become holy and just, in exactly the same way we became sinners in Adam. In Adam we died, in Christ we were made alive. Jesus is known as the "last Adam"
    Satan had no clue to what the Lord God had done, for if he had known, he would have NEVER crucified the Lord of Glory.
    The law demands all sinners are to die, and no one can ever get out of that since we are all sinners. Jesus's death on the cross with us being in him satisfies the laws demand on us. But Jesus did not stay dead nor did all those who were in him. We have been raised back to life through the resurrection of Jesus Christ to the right hand of God.

    2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
  7. See as God is just, he doesn't not impute guilt to the innocent. The idea of Adam's guilt being imputed to his descendants is the very essence of injustice, contrary to De 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall the children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin." Such people tend also to view God reckoning Jesus with the guilt of the sins of the world, again the essence of injustice.

    So if we are to interpret the Bible in light of God's character, is God just or unjust?
  8. Interesting concept. I'll have to think that one over.
  9. The "Sin" of Adam was knowingly, intentionally, and WILLFULLY expressing his own self-will against the Will of God.... God didn't bring that upon us - we did.... That same "Original sin" - the desire to willfully and knowingly set our own will against God's - pervades through us as well....

    see 1st timothy 2:13-14
    Eve was Deceived... She could have been "Forgiven" because of her lack of Intent.... That's the difference between a "Trespass" - unintentional sin - and WILLFUL, Intentional sin.....

    Adam on the other hand was NOT deceived... He KNEW that he was willfully and intentionally expressing his own will against the will of God.....

    See - without Jesus atonement on the cross - It doesn't matter how good Adam's intent was... That Adam loved Eve so much that he ate the fruit to die whatever death she would die.... His WILLFUL and INTENTIONAL choice actually put Adam in WORSE stead than Eve! Look at Numbers 15:22-31... Before Jesus - You could make atonement for Unintentional sin... You could make NO atonement for INTENTIONAL, Presumptuous sin, no matter how well intentioned it was.

    The Curse was a Consequence.....
    Mortality was a consequence...
    God did not "curse" Man with a willful nature - We had that already.....
    He cursed the Earth for our disobedience..... The curse against the Earth produced the consequence that WE have to work the soil and we have to toil to live.... It no longer naturally produces all of our needs without being tended....

  10. Deu 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

    This verse was given in how earthly judges were to conduct themselves in judging the nation of Israel.
    The word "sin" here means "crime". It was a common practice back then and even now in some parts of the world where if a father or son committed a crime their whole family would be put to death. These judges which Moses set up were not given the right to do that. Only the person who committed the crime was to be punished.

    Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

    We are sinners not because we ate from the tree God commanded Adam not to eat from, but because we inherited the sin nature that came upon Adam after he disobeyed.
  11. The scapegoat was not sacrificed, so it is not a type of Christ. It is a type of the anti typical Satan, who will bear the sins of the Redeemed when they are transferred from the Most Holy Place where Jesus is bearing them now.
  12. Moose.....the "Death" in Rev. 21:8 is a PLACE, not an action.
  13. When you read the context of the Deut. account, do you think that Moses was speaking in verse 16 about prohibiting any more injustices such as the taking of a sons life for the crime of his father or vise virsa.

    Sometimes me thinks we read more into what is actually there. What do you think?

    Is God just?? ALWAYS!
  14. Why call it "second death"? I looked up the original Greek and it seems the best translation. Rev 20:14 describes it as death and hell being cast into the lake of fire. What is the first death as opposed to the second, if it is a place? Is the first also a place?
  15. Moose...notice Rev 20:13.....
    "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and DEATH and HELL delievered up the dead which were in them.........".

    That indicates to me a place!

    Is the first death a place? It seems to me that it is.

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