Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Stan, Aug 26, 2013.
Let's have some scripture along with your thoughts.
I'll quote myself:
So how could the Bride be the saints in this clear verse?:
In this verse it is quite clear the Bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, not the saints at all, right?
Please explain how a pure bride can be "a mother" as declared 2000 years ago and yet a bride at Christ's return?
Let those who are inclined to cling to the tradition view that the church is the bride, and that the marriage is after Christ comes, and the saints are caught up to Heaven, answer the following questions:
1. Who are illustrated by the man found at the marriage, Matt. 22, not having on the wedding garment?
2. Will any be caught up by mistake, to be bound hand and foot, and be cast down to the earth again?
3. If the church is the wife, who are they that are called to the marriage as guests?
4. Jerusalem above is the mother of the children of promise; but if the church is the Lamb's wife, who are the children?
I'm not really sure how the BOC ever got the label of Bride when it's NOT in any scripture I have read. As you have clearly shown Rev 21:9 says clearly that the NEW Jerusalem is The Bride of the Lamb, who is Christ.
In Luke 5:34, Jesus calls us the guests, NOT the bride.
Well...partly it is RCC/Orthodox Rite tradition .
Funny, I can see that given the priests and nuns never get married.
This won't be a popular perspective here, but my response is that the Our Lady is the Bride of the NT.
The role of Mary is controversial, for lack of a better term, because some believe it grants her too much reverence. The case for Mary isn't one that grants her worship or a place equal to Christ, but rather a model servant of God through her obedience.
Nonetheless, a good place to start is with Christ being the new Adam as it was noted in Romans 5:12-18. Where Adam has fallen, Christ would be to one to restart what Adam didn't (which you are probably referencing already in your question).
Who is the Bride? Who is the new Eve?
A Hebrew tradition that was remarked during the reign of King David was that his mother served as queen--very common--the term being "Queen Mother." This doesn't mean he married her of course, nonetheless, she was assumed the title.
In short, Eve was called 'Woman' (Genesis 2:23). This role being very important.
At the wedding at Cana (John 2:4), Christ said to his mother, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come." This is looked at as not much, but his calling her 'Woman' is very significant. He also referred to her as such in John 19:20. It wasn't him being snarky with her, but addressing her as her key title. Just as Christ was recharging where Adam failed, so was Mary recharging where Eve failed in obedience to God.
In Genesis 3:20, Eve is called the "Mother of all the living." But as Christ being the new Adam, this is why Mary is recognized as the mother of all who live in Christ.
In Revelation 12, the pregnant woman with the crown of twelve stars is describing Mary. In verse 5, it describes her child being "caught up to God and to His throne." In verse one, some regard the woman as Israel. Some justify Mary as being an embodiment of the Church. But in verse 17, it expresses how the dragon wanted to devour the rest of "her offspring." This also aligning with Mary being the new Eve--as Eve was the mother of all the living, Mary being the mother of all who live in Christ.
Naturally, this is the Catholic explanation, and a dumbed down one at that, and the discussion of the Church being the Bride of Christ (which is also very much true) can still suggest that it isn't Mary, but if Mary is the embodiment of the Church (which was also suggested by Cardinal Ratzinger), then perhaps this wouldn't refute the idea of Mary being the Bride either.
I think this is a good question to ask though, Stan. Who is the Bride of the NT? I very much like this question -- so, Kudos
I'm sure, given God's rules in Lev 18, the MOTHER could never be the BRIDE of the SON. Rev 12 is a good depiction of what happened when Jesus was born. In fact this is a representation for Jews, of their nation, ISRAEL, being the WOMAN, who gave birth to the Messiah. The rest is clear given that context.
Adam called her Eve because of that, but this does NOT transfer to the BOC of which they knew nothing. Jesus made it very clear that His mother was like any other mother, Matthew 12:50.
The RCC has over the years put undo and unwarranted importance of emphasis on Mary. Christ is the Head of the Church, Eph 5:23, and their is NO other.
I have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation. I also think you've misunderstood the Catholic position of Mary. There is no putting her as the head of the Church, but rather an important model that can lead those to the head of the Church. Just as perhaps some of our parents can help up know Christ better through their actions, their prayers, and their love, this is how Catholics and some of the Orthodox Christians view Mary--not as the head of the Church, but through her love and obedience to God can we be lead to Him.
Leviticus 18 though is about unlawful sexual relations--something completely different. When regarding Mary the Bride, it isn't in regards to anything remotely close to that. Just as King David's queen his mother, they weren't married or incestuous. I think it would be pretty blasphemous to link Mary this way to Christ.
The point is that God's Word tells us ONLY God, John 6:44, can lead us to Jesus, NOT Mary or anyone else. I know RCC doctrines as I was one. Their is no secondary position or function for Mary other than IN the RCC. Jesus says call no MAN Father in the spiritual sense, He says nothing about calling no woman mother because it does NOT enter into God's plan of salvation.
My point with Lev 18 is they contain God's laws about marriage just as Jesus alluded in Matthew 19:9. So God would not plan for Mary to be a bride to His mother, not matter how you couch it or deify her.
God's way are NOT David's ways, or viceversa. David had his own problems with women.
Amen -- John 14:6 is very clear than no one can get to the Father except through Christ. The Church is absolutely on board with this teaching. The misconception is that Marian honor is hinting that you can get to the Father through her too--but this is ONLY a misconception, and one I held for many years as a Protestant.
Rather, the honor offered to Mary is comparable to the honor we have for our parents. We don't worship our parents, nor do we put them above Christ, but we are commanded to honor and obey them for the sake of a safe journey so to speak (Ephesians 6:1-3).
"But Shapiro, there is only one mediator between Man and God." Amen! (1 Timothy 2:5). Mary's role is extremely important as no one knew Christ more intimately and devoutly as she considering she was the mother of God and bore flesh to Him. Because of how close she is, Catholics don't look to her as the savior, but ask her to pray for us. Often times, we ask each other to pray for one another for a good reason.
If one is looking to Mary apart from Christ, OR in worship to her, then they are dishonoring God.
OK well I think we're now officially off track so let's table this for another thread. Please feel free to start it.
Haha, sorry--that's my fault.
Despite our disagreement, again, this is an excellent question and discussion to have.
II Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
So, Mr. Darby, AS this is a metaphorical/hyperbolic statement by Paul, what do you think Paul is saying here?
Do you think Paul looks at himself as the FATHER of the NT Church, or are you just being inappropriately jocular?
Quoting a verse of scripture is inappropriately jocular? Wow.
We are espoused to Christ. What does that mean? It means we are to be his bride.
ESPOUS'ED, participle passive Betrothed; affianced; promised in marriage by contract; married; united intimately; embraced.
If we are to be married to him, then what does that say? It says that the Church is the Bride of Christ. We have a wedding day coming up in heaven. Revelation 19:7,8:
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
The New Jerusalem is to be the 'home' of the Church, hence it is identified with the 'Bride'.
Yes, it IS, IF you were trying to be jocular.
We are NOT espoused to Christ, and the key word Paul uses is AS. Of course now you bring up another scripture, without dealing fully with the first one.
If Rev 19:7-8 is the BOC then who are the guests invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb in v9? What exactly is the angel saying in 21:9-11?
The fine linen were the righteous acts of God's Holy people, NOT the acts of the Bride. Those acts clothe the New Jerusalem, which is the Bride.
The New Jerusalem is to be THE BRIDE and where God will reside. It's gates will never be closed and the glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. Rev 21:22-27
Paul: 'I have espoused you to one husband'.
The question is how we will be presented to Christ on that wedding day. Will it it be AS a chaste virgin, or will we have been corrupted, as Eve was by the serpent?
'For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.'
The question to all of us is this: Will he find us a chaste bride or an unchaste one?
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
It is very clear from Paul's teaching that our relationship to Christ is pictured in the wedding bond, a union of Christ and the believer as one body, one flesh, joined by bonds of eternal love. A precious truth no believer should be robbed of.
How does a collection of buildings perform righteous acts? The Church is identified with the heavenly Jerusalem. Hebrews 10:
'22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven'.
The guests and friends of the groom are those saints of the Old Testament and Tribulation dispensations that are not a part of the Church Age. John the Baptist, a saint of the OT, identified himself as a friend of the groom. John 3:
'28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.'
It's NOT clear at all, Mr. D, unless you are seeing it eisegetically. Rev 21:9-11 says EXACTLY who the bride is.
Eph 5:32 is teaching that a person’s union with his or her own body is intimate and permanent, and marriage creates a similar union. Christ has joined the church to Himself through the bonds of the covenant He fulfilled, and this intimate union forms an analogy for Christian marriage.
The fine linens represent the righteous acts, I didn't say the building performed them. You read without understanding and you refuse to answer the questions posed to you. I can't really carry on a discussion with someone like that now can I?
ALL the disciples that followed Jesus were called the friends of the bridegroom, but even when Christ leaves they are still friends of the bridegroom as ALL disciples of Jesus are. Matthew 9:15.
Matthew 25:1 also alludes to virgins who are to be prepared for the bridegroom. The virgins are those of the kingdom of heaven, NOT the bride. The Bride is the New Jerusalem.
Guess you haven't been following our discussions in other threads about all these thing you bring up here, and I see no reason to repeat myself when they are all written down.
Well, I have answered all the questions with scripture, but I guess they teach English different up there than they do down here. We certainly aren't following the same rules for reading English, hence this is a pointless discussion.