Who comes with Jesus at His second coming?

Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Marilyn C, Dec 10, 2015.

  1. You might want to check again, as when Christ comes he himself will do the fighting alone, and all the saints that come with him will be wittiness to the destruction of his enemies, and ours.

    Isa 63:3.. I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
    Isa 63:4.. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.


    Rev 19:13.. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    Rev 19:14.. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
     
  2. Hi @CCW95A.

    Now let`s look at your question -

    As we know from scripture the word saints can be - people of Israel or the people of the Body of Christ. So let`s have a look –

    ISRAEL.

    Betrothed – God said to Israel, “I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me.....I will betroth you to Me....` (3 times) (Hosea 2: 19)

    Husband – God said to Israel, “ For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is His name;..` (Isa. 54: 5)

    Married – God said to Israel, `Return, O backsliding children,” says the Lord, “for I am married to you...` (Jer. 3: 14)

    Divorced – God said to Israel, “ Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away & given her a certificate of divorce;....` (Jer. 3: 8)

    Remarry wife – Jesus reminds Israel that God will yet connect, marry Israel again. `The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son.` (Matt. 22: 1)

    “Let us be glad & rejoice & give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, & His WIFE has made herself ready.” (Rev. 19: 7)


    BODY OF CHRIST.

    Betrothed – ??????
    Husband – ??????
    Married – ??????
    Divorced – ??????
    Remarry wife – ?????



    Marilyn.
     
    Complete likes this.
  3. I know you are trying hard to make your point, but you can not discount the fact that the saints are the ones given white linen to wear as they are the bride of Christ. It is the righteous acts of the saints, not any angels. It is these who come with Christ at his coming!!

    Rev 19:7.. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
    Rev 19:8.. it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. (ESV)

    Are angels given fine white linen because of their righteous deeds? The answer is no!
     
  4. Hi @CCW95A,

    So glad you have brought this up (again). It is a very important point, I believe & key to whom these people are. Your question is -

    That is correct, the angels are not given fine white linen because of their righteous deeds. Only the saints are clothed in fine linen because of their righteous deeds. So which saints are they – Israel or the Body of Christ.

    Firstly though, angels are clothed in pure linen, because they are holy angels.

    `out of the temple (in heaven) came the …angels….clothed in pure, bright linen,…` (Rev. 15: 6)

    Now who are clothed in fine linen because of their righteous deeds. God`s word tells us that the Old Testament saints `worked righteousness` by having faith in what God told them to do.

    `David, Samuel & the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions……` (Heb. 11: 32 & 33)

    How is the Body of Christ, righteous?

    `But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God - & righteousness….` (1 Cor. 1: 30)

    Thus we see that we are in Christ, we have His righteousness, our salvation is NOT from any deeds we do. Whereas the Old Testament saints did not have this wonderful privilege, but had to work righteous deeds.

    So the `wife,` who made herself ready by her righteous deeds/acts, is clearly the Old Testament people of Israel & NOT the Body of Christ.


    Marilyn.
     
    Complete likes this.
  5. #65 CCW95A, Dec 14, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
    Our righteous "deeds" is what God himself does through his Church. Even Jesus Christ said it was his Father that was dwelling in him that was doing the works. Jesus said to his disciples, "....without me you can do nothing...."
    Did you notice the first part of this scripture?

    Rev 19:8.. it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

    We are granted to be clothed in fine linen, not because of any works we have performed on our own, but what the Lord God does through his body in exactly the same way God the Father worked through his Son!!

    So, no the Church is the body of Christ mentioned here who are granted to be clothed in white linen, that will come with Jesus Christ at his coming to make war!!
     
    Major likes this.
  6. Hi @CCW95A,

    I can see you think differently than me, however I will post this for those reading.

    `By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was RIGHTEOUS, God testifying of his gifts;...` (Heb. 11: 4)

    Righteous deeds/acts were how the OT saints obtained a witness from God that they were righteous.
    The Body of Christ is ONLY RIGHTEOUS by the blood of Jesus, HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS & NOT righteous deeds/acts.

    Marilyn.

     
    Complete likes this.
  7. Hi @CCW95A,

    Just want to thank you for the discussion & your good attitude. We think differently on this topic at the moment, however I pray that the Lord will lead us both into more of His truth.

    God bless, bro. Marilyn.
     
    CCW95A likes this.
  8. #68 CCW95A, Dec 14, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
    Just to add my my 2 cents, faith works exactly the same way whether it was in the Old Testament, or New Testament, which is why we are told to have the faith of Abraham. (Romans 4:16)
     
    Major likes this.
  9. Good stuff!
     
    Abdicate likes this.
  10. Correct!
     
  11. It might be helpful to consider that salvation in the Old Testament isn't discussed primarily in terms of “going to heaven”— but in terms of belonging to God” as his people.

    What's so striking about all of this is that God did it all—it's salvation by grace alone. Certainly Abram responded to this call—which was a major endeavor, leaving his people and traveling through the desert to a far-off land. But God made the choice. God gave the call. God made all the promises. Salvation was from the Lord. All Abraham did was believe and that is FAITH!

    When Abram believed, God saw his faith and credited righteousness to his account, even though Abraham continued to be a sinner. Though faith was required and outward signs were taken very seriously—remember how God came after Moses to kill him when Moses failed to circumcise his sons— still, salvation was by grace through faith, according to God's calling.
     
    CCW95A likes this.
  12. I can not agree with your thinking Marilyn. The Old Testament does contain several references to the relationship between God and Israel. And yes, at times they’re symbolized as a marriage, just like the relationship between Jesus and the Church is symbolized as a marriage. That is seen when Israel broke their covenant with God, He called it a divorce (Jeremiah 3:8) and when the covenant is renewed it will be like a remarriage (Hosea 2:7).

    But this in no way changes or negates the relationship Jesus has with the Church. In 2 Cor. 11:2 Paul wrote.............
    “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.”

    In the Greek language this carries the implication of a betrothal. And in Rev. 21:9-10 the angel showed John the bride of the Lamb coming down out of heaven. It was the New Jerusalem, the exclusive home of the Church.

    It’s important to remember that all this is symbolic. God didn’t really marry Israel, in the sense of an earthly marriage. Nor will Jesus marry the church in that way. The reason these relationships are expressed in term of a marriage is to give us a better view of how intimate and exclusive they are. It’s a heavenly concept expressed in earthly terms to help us understand it.
     
    Big Moose likes this.
  13. Look very closely at Hebrews 11:4 which you posted.

    By FAITH, not sacrifice but FAITH, not deeds or works. Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness (literally, was witnessed of) that he was righteous, God testifying of (literally, witnessing upon, or, in respect to) his gifts: and through it FAITH, he being dead yet speaketh.
     
    Complete likes this.
  14. Hi Major,
    The following is from another study I was a part of some time ago. This is how I have come to understand this but it does not make me correct. Just thought I would run it by you.
    God Bless my friend
    James W
    If you look into Hebrew scripture you will find it indicates that Cain brought or offered to God Third picking.
    Third or late picking is worthless and not much good for anything but animal feed
    REFERENCE...........The Chumash, ed Rabbi Nosson Scherman, Art Scroll Series, Stone Edition, Travel Size (Brooklyn Mesorah Publications, 1998...p.21

    In Gen 4:7 you see.........if you do well, will you not be excepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And it's desire is for you, but you should rule over it.

    Now God called that type of offering sin. God did not condemn Cain right away. God gave cain another opertunity as to repent and do it again or offer up his best. You see this in Gen 4:7 ..above
    However cain got offended....all cain cared about was getting the blessing. Cain aloud the devil to get him so riled and angry that he killed abel. Abel from the start brought his best.....God excepted this......from the Start.
     
  15. Yes sir, I agree with that. When we read Jude 11 we see these words........."They have gone the way of Cain"

    Now what why is that???? When Cain brought his offering, he did not do it by FAITH! He came on his own and his offering denied that human nature is eveil.

    God said......"Bring that little blood sacrifice that points to the Redeemer who is coming. Come on that basis and do not come to me with the works of your own hands.

    Not only that, Cain's offering denied that man was separated from God. He acted like everything was alright. That is liberalism.
    Liberalism says that we are all children of God because of the brotherhood of man. The problem with that is things are NOT alright with us today. We are not born the children of God. We must be "born again" to be a child of God because man is separated from God and Cain refused to recognize that fact.
     
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  16. But Marilyn, what you are proposing is contingent upon the church being inline with the nation of Israel because ALL, not some bout ALL the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not include the church. The nation of Israel is who God gave His promises to under the covenant He made with each one of those men. Those promises are still in the future and the church has not replaced the nation of Israel.
     
  17. Hi @CCW95A, & @Major,

    So glad we agree that it is by faith…… as I quoted previously –

    `By faith Abel…..` & ` David….who through faith……` (Heb. 11: 4 & 33)

    We, the Body of Christ believe by faith that Jesus is our righteousness.

    `…you are in Christ Jesus who became for us wisdom from God - & righteousness…` (1 Cor: 1: 30)

    However the Old Testament saints did not have that privilege of `believing in faith that Jesus is their righteousness.` They were never told that or understood that, thus they could not have faith for it. So then what did they have faith for?

    The Old Testament saints had faith in God that he would make them righteous as he promised them. When they obeyed specifically what God said to them then God accounted it to them as righteousness.

    `Then He (the Lord) brought him (Abraham) outside & said, “Look now towards heaven, & count the stars if you are able to number them” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he (Abraham) believed in the Lord, & He (the Lord) accounted it to him for righteousness.` (Gen. 15: 5)

    Yes, it is because we believe, have faith in God, BUT the difference is WHAT we believe for, what has God told us, & what had God told them to have faith for.


    Marilyn.
     
    Complete likes this.
  18. )
    Hi @ Major

    I agree that all the promises made to Israel (which they had to believe by faith) are not the same as the promises God made to the Body of Christ, (which we are to believe by faith).

    Marilyn.
     
    Complete and Major say Amen and like this.
  19. Sister Marilyn, would you not conclude that having faith in the Word of God in which he spoke to Abraham, or anyone be considered Jesus Christ since he is the Word of God? Having faith the Word of God is having faith in Jesus Christ, is it not? As to what they had faith for, it depends on what the Lord God said to them as faith is very very specific to the promise given them. Which means faith is tied to the promise given, and is not all inclusive.
     
  20. Hi @CCW95A,

    I agree `what the Lord said to them (& us) is very, very specific.` So what did God tell the Old Testament saints & what does He tell the Body of Christ?

    Marilyn.
     

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