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Which is true?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Boanerges(Inactive), Jul 31, 2008.

  1. Which is true?

    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


    Or:

    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    ????????

    Perhaps the answer lies in this verse:
    Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    True and living faith produces works, dead works or religious and mental assent is void of God's presence and power- this always results in only death.
     
  2. It might be helpful to look at some commentaries and explore what James is saying to us-

    Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible:

    Jas 2:24
    Ye see then - From the course of reasoning pursued, and the example referred to.
    How that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only - Not by a cold, abstract, inoperative faith. It must be by a faith that shall produce good works, and whose existence will be shown to men by good works. As justification takes place in the sight of God, it is by faith, for he sees that the faith is genuine, and that it will produce good works if the individual who exercises faith shall live; and he justifies men in view of that faith, and of no other. If he sees that the faith is merely speculative; that it is cold and dead, and would not produce good works, the man is not justified in his sight. As a matter of fact, therefore, it is only the faith that produces good works that justifies; and good works, therefore, as the proper expression of the nature of faith, foreseen by God as the certain result of faith, and actually performed as seen by men, are necessary in order to justification. In other words, no man will be justified who has not a faith which will produce good works, and which is of an operative and practical character. The ground of justification in the case is faith, and that only; the evidence of it, the carrying it out, the proof of the existence of the faith, is good works; and thus men are justified and saved not by mere abstract and cold faith, but by a faith necessarily connected with good works, and where good works perform an important part. James, therefore, does not contradict Paul, but he contradicts a false explanation of Paul’s doctrine. He does not deny that a man is justified in the sight of God by faith, for the very passage which he quotes shows that he believes that; but he does deny that a man is justified by a faith which would not produce good works, and which is not expressed by good works; and thus he maintains, as Paul always did, that nothing else than a holy life can show that a man is a true Christian, and is accepted of God.
     
  3. Adam Clarke's Commentaries on the Bible:

    Jas 2:24
    Ye see then how - It is evident from this example that Abraham’s faith was not merely believing that there is a God; but a principle that led him to credit God’s promises relative to the future Redeemer, and to implore God’s mercy: this he received, and was justified by faith. His faith now began to work by love, and therefore he was found ever obedient to the will of his Maker. He brought forth the fruits of righteousness; and his works justified - proved the genuineness of his faith; and he continued to enjoy the Divine approbation, which he could not have done had he not been thus obedient; for the Spirit of God would have been grieved, and his principle of faith would have perished. Obedience to God is essentially requisite to maintain faith. Faith lives, under God, by works; and works have their being and excellence from faith. Neither can subsist without the other, and this is the point which St. James labors to prove, in order to convince the Antinomians of his time that their faith was a delusion, and that the hopes built on it must needs perish.
     
  4. This same apparent contradiction seems to exist in this same scripture:

    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    and these:
    Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


    Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
    Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
     
  5. Then we come to this issue:
    Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?



    Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    Rom 4:3 For what saith the Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
     
  6. I think simply put you could say - that salvation is given free by the atonment of the cross and is received by faith and is not granted by the measurment of our good works in the flesh. And if you have truely received God's salvation in the cross by faith - this process will produce in you good works by the Spirit.

    Good works does not save, but salvation produces good works. The fact that you do have good works is proof of the faith of your salvation.

    Larry II
     
  7. Again I submit to you that a living faith produces and will always manifest in works which are the evidence of what God is doing in our lives and hearts.
    Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


    The Word perfect in the Greek is:
    teleioō
    4teleioo (Verb)

    "to bring to an end by completing or perfecting," is used (I) of "accomplishing" (see FINISH, FULFILL); (II) of "bringing to completeness," (a) of persons: of Christ's assured completion of His earthly course, in the accomplishment of the Father's will, the successive stages culminating in His death, Lu. 13:32; Heb. 2:10, to make Him "perfect," legally and officially, for all that He would be to His people on the ground of His sacrifice; cp. 5:9; 7:28, RV, "perfected" (AV, "consecrated"); of His saints, Joh. 17:23, RV, "perfected" (AV, "made perfect"); Php. 3:12; Heb. 10:14; 11:40 (of resurrection glory); 12:23 (of the departed saints); 1Jo. 4:18; of former priests (negatively), Heb. 9:9; similarly of Israelites under the Aaronic priesthood, Heb. 10:1; (b) of things, Heb. 7:19 (of the ineffectiveness of the Law); Jas. 2:22 (of faith made "perfect" by works); 1Jo. 2:5, of the love of God operating through him who keeps His word; 1Jo. 4:12, of the love of God in the case of those who love one another; 1Jo. 4:17, of the love of God as "made perfect with" (RV) those who abide in God, giving them to be possessed of the very character of God, by reason of which "as He is, even so are they in this world."


    So works are the natural conclusion of a living faith which has brought us into this justification.
     
  8. Amen Larry.:)
     
  9. Good study.... Larry and Larry II
    In James it also says
    James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

    Personally studying this verse can also show us that God seems to favour those who are poor more than those who are rich because they can depend on Him more and have also more faith to believe in miracles for their daily living.

    I am not saying that riches are a hindrance but to me , I think I would rather be poor ., because earthly riches do not equate spiritual wealth any more than economic destitiution indicates spiritual poverty. Those who love God , regardless of their earthly financial position , are " rich in faith " and "heirs of the kingdom "
     
  10. Sometmes I think I would rather be rich with a good heart about it although that makes me wonder- is that the right heart I am wishing with?:p
     

  11. Superb Question if I may say so.

    This is pretty simple really note in Tit 3:5 it talking about the

    "Works of righteousness"

    The key to this apparent discrepancy is in the words... "works of righteousness" that was spoken of in Tit 3:5 are referring to the sacrificial system.

    (When you sinned you sacrifice an animal or give wine or a goat whatever)

    And then after offing that you was again made "righteousness" hence "works of righteousness" or "law for righteousness" whenever you see the word "law for righteousness" or any law for righteousness it is simply referring to the sacrificial system.

    The Jews and the Gentile of that time knew this so there was no need to explain it out to them like I have here.
     
  12. Hi i am not educated in such things, my first call is Jesus for everything, as I lack the knowledge others have. But when i ask Jesus about this question, I get this answer and i repeat that which Jesus tells me. As i have not read the bible or studied it, due to my education standards. But Jesus said to me this...
    Both are right, but regarding two septerate things. Human wisdom will have one believe one thing and another believe something else, this is why you have so many Christian religions in the world, one Jesus so many beliefs. Humans have been pursuing wisdom of men over that of the wisdom of God. Tit 3:4 -6 is regarding what I give you all, an out poring of my Spirit upon all, not according to anything you have done, but in love only. Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. Faith, real faith not a belief renamed faith in order to justife the lack of faith. This real Faith is trushing in that which is above your interlect above your ability to unsderstand that which is from God, to trust in it and believe in the unseen things of God. This faith need to be worked in order to grow and become strong. We can have faith real faith, but if we do not work it put it to practus we will never grow in Spirit and see the unseen things of God, its by working this faith we come to hear and see the wonderment of the Kingdom. so we must work our faith, like a an athlete works hard at becoming a winner, we to must work out. yet as for Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. So we see here we have two life forms that make us who we are, one is body, the other is spirit, both live side by side, if we fail the spirit the body dies. so to with faith, if we don't work faith it dies. Working faith is putting yourself to the test, that i am in you or as it its written have you completly failed.

    Sorry for my bad spelling, I hope it readable. Thats what jesus told me, I hope this helps..

    T Man
     
  13. Interesting Atrhick but that odes not account for the imputed justifacation mentioned here:

    Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    He is made unto us these things:
    1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
    And that by His work on the cross:
    2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
    Justification was accomplished at the cross:
    Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

     
  14. Romans 5: is in perfect harmony with my explanation above. Question to you? How are we justified by faith? I will submit that works without faith is dead just as, faith without works is dead.

    Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    Also when studing these things is it also good to keep track of who John or Paul are speaking to… for one the Jews mind set at that time was that there works saved them. while the gentile needed to understand that faith along wont save them. Faith and works are hand in hand… hence we keep God’s Commandments because we are saved.

    The above verses make sense you as a Christian would not glory in himself because he keeps the commandments or do good deeds but glory in the Lords Jesus Christ who has given us the power and grace to do all things.



    the above again proved my point Jesus Christ is now our righteousness, before Jesus everyone offered up lams and offerings for their sins in order to get righteousness or to become righteous with God.


    Blessings.
     
  15. Personally I think you missed the whole point of what is being said. The good news is we do not have to agree with each other to be friends and brothers.:)
     

  16. Both are true cause the word of God is true and Jesus is the truth.

    James 2:20
    You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ?

    Romans 10:17
    Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

    Romans 12:3
    For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

    1 Corinthians 13:2
    If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

    2 Corinthians 5:7
    We live by faith, not by sight.

    Philippians 3:9
    and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

    James 2:14
    [ Faith and Deeds ] What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
     
  17. Faith...." A living faith" is what Noah put into action : he separated himself fron the world : he walked with God: and he preached righteousness.

    Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.





    Genesis 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD


    Faith is a witness of God's approval over our lives

    Faith is confident obedience in God's word.

    Faith is believing in God's Word. no matter what you have seen or not seen.

    We exercise faith every day, all the time . Your faith is only as good as the object or person you place your faith in.




     
  18. Define the word (works) internal and external actions (Both)









    God bless
     
  19. Good discussion; I wanted to get to the basic definitions of justificaton and salvation...I don't think that the scriptures are contradictory...
    Can the Word of God truly contradict itself?

    Salvation (disambiguation). (Wikipedia)In theology, salvation can mean three related things:1)being saved from or liberation from something, such as suffering or the punishment of sin – also called deliverance; 2)being saved for something, such as an afterlife or participating in the Reign of God – also called redemption 3)social liberation and healing.

    2 Timothy 1:9
    Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
    Titus 3:5
    Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

    We are not saved by our works....but according to His calling and mercy we have been redeemed (bought with a price).

    James 2:18
    Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    This is the scripture that I believe refers to the justification by works; not salvation. Showing of our faith through our works. I believe in part that the act of justification requires the ACTION and WORKS of our faith. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith and faith must be worked by LOVE.
    Galatians 5:6
    For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    Justification is God's act of declaring (not making) a sinner righteous before God. (Wikipedia) Justification, from the Greek δικαιόω (dikaioō), "to declare righteous", is a word occurring in the books of Romans, Galatians, Titus, and James, among other places; the root noun δικαιοσ,-η,-ον righteous occurs throughout both Old and New Testaments.

    Salvation and works: (Wikipedia)
    "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone" (James 2:24). This verse and the surrounding passage is disputed, centering primarily on the meaning of the word justified. Most Protestants argue the word rendered justified is not used as "to make righteous" but to be "shown already righteous" (as the word is used in Matthew 11:19), meaning that a person's good behaviour proves they have been saved, as God is sanctifying them, making them a better person, after having saved them. Thus most Protestants distinguish sharply between (and some separate entirely) sanctification from justification.

    For your prayerful consideration and input...LOVE to you all.
     
  20. Good study topic,

    The way I see it is that in context Paul was writing mainly about works of the law leading up to salvation.

    James is talking about the outworking of our faith after salvation.

    So it is works of the law verses works of faith.

    James was implying that if we pray for something and then do nothing about it, we have no faith.

    This is where the rubber hits the road for christians, it takes us out of our comfort zones and shows us where our faith lies.

    If we have faith in Jesus we will be saved, but our faith is demonstrated by works.

    James was illustrating that if we pray for something we should have the faith to get involved and carry it out!
     

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