Where do dinosaurs fit in?

[Major]

I've already addressed this in another thread, but I'll repeat here: God spoke everything into existence (faith of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen), and all the elements of the universe was laid out like legos on a table. The Holy Spirit stirs up (energize) these elements and the most abundant elements in the universe: hydrogen, helium, and oxygen.


Yes, and? How do you know He didn't bring Mars to disrupt the geological stability of the planet to do just what happened? I used to get angry with the History Channel and Discovery Channels when they would "explain away" God's events. Then it dawned on me, they explain something away to instill doubt in those that are in doubt or instill doubt about God's power. God said to study His creation to learn more about Him. If we explain how does it explain away the Who? Only to the one looking for an out.


Yes, because it wasn't it's first. In fact the current orbit is more elliptical and offset compared to the earths. Also Venus was involved, but this part is a lot more in-depth than I care to get into. You can google it or read my study.


Mt. St. Helen created a mini-Grand Canyon when it erupted. I'm sure the Gran Canyon was created because of the flood, but not over millions of years. I don't believe the geographical disruption caused the Grand Canyon because it is not opposite of Ethiopia. The "grand" canyon on Mars is opposite it's mountain range, so it could have been done by its close encounters with the earth. I do believe the damage done on Mars is the same damage in the Great African Rift. It is also why, if found, there'd be water on Mars and what mights have happened to its atmosphere.

It's just my understanding.

God bless you brother. You have really good thoughts most all of the time, however IMO you have stepped off into real deep waters and maybe, just maybe you have allowed science and maybe mythology to effect your theology. You see, if what you are proposing is true, then it would seem to me that the Greeks were right after all. Zeus-pater (Jupiter) was indeed the controller of the cosmos in that era in Greek mythology, Aries was the ram with the Golden Fleece.

From one of those web sites (http://www.creationism.org/patten/PattenMarsEarthWars/PattenMEW03.htm) comes this perspective.
"Abraham was there, viewing the Rift Valley's northernmost finger. It was the trench containing the Jordan River and the Dead Sea. In the distance were fertile irrigated fields below, and five prospering cities. Two of them were Sodom and Gomorrah. A prosperous society there was reported to have given itself over to dissolution and to unnatural sex orgies. All five cities were suddenly engulfed in volcanic gases, ash and a few lava flows. Those lava flows and cinders still remain.

The "death angel" was the triggering agent for this extension to the Great Rift Valley system. Simply put, it was another of the close flybys of Mars. In this case, the "death angel" had a mass 11% of Earth's mass. It had two visible satellites, the sons of Arcturus in Hebrew, Deimos and Phobos in Greek. This angel had a name in Talmudic Hebrew texts; it was known both as the destructive angel of the Lord and as the evil archangel "Sammael."

The ancient Hebrew explanation for this event was the general wickedness and dissolute behavior in the five cities in the fertile plain at the bottom. Apart from the Hebrew explanation, and adding thereto, is that pressures had been building up for centuries, waiting for a trigger, to produce another extension in the Great African Rift Valley system.
A Mars flyby triggered the event. At that particular occasion, our estimate of the date was October, 1728 B.C.E. "

There are several other web sites that promote the teaching of "catastrophism", I am just not one who accepts those teachings.

I am no expert in any way whatsoever. But what I have been able to read and understand is that the African rift we are talking about was NOT caused by a "flyby" of the planet Mars but was and is an ongoing geological event cause by the reaction of tectonic plate activity. It seems to me that the Grand Canyon was caused by the Colorado Rive as it was the main drainage element for the Rocky mountains. At least that is what I remember from geology back in my day.

 

[Big Moose]

The earth in Genesis 1:2 did NOT start out as "void, and without form". It " became" void and without form. The word "was" means, "to become" The exact same word is used when God breathed into Adam, and he "became" a living soul. In the space of just "one" verse the earth went from being dry land to being over flowed completely with water destroying every thing on it.

Gen 1:2.. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What does God call "earth"? He does NOT call the water earth as he calls the water "seas". The only part God calls earth is the "dry land."

Gen 1:10.. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:2.. says and the earth (dry land) became void, and without form!! The earth went from being a dry land to becoming void, and formless along with darkness over the face of the deep. At the end of this verse it says, "...the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." This scripture did NOT say the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the earth, or dry land, why? Because there was no dry land for it became completely over flowed with water!!!
Where do you suppose this water came from, and what caused all of this destruction?

The problem with this view is what happens in Gen 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

For the dinos to exist in verse 1 and become extinct in verse 2, they would have had to exist with no light. No light, no green plants, no dinosaurs.

 

[Grant Melville]

The problem with this view is what happens in Gen 13 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

For the dinos to exist in verse 1 and become extinct in verse 2, they would have had to exist with no light. No light, no green plants, no dinosaurs.

There was light between verses 1 and 2, just as there was a division of land and water. The land was overwhelmed, and the light was lost. It's been suggested that the darkness was restricted to the face of the deep, that there was some sort of cloud or blackness blocking out the light, but I wouldn't want to speculate too much about that. I am quite sure that all the conditions necessary for animal and plant life were there prior to verse 2, including light.

 

[CCW95A]

The problem with this view is what happens in Gen 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

For the dinos to exist in verse 1 and become extinct in verse 2, they would have had to exist with no light. No light, no green plants, no dinosaurs.

Remember the "earth" became void, without form, and dark, but it did not not start out that way as it tells us in the beginning God created the "heavens", and the earth. The heavens incorporate all the stars and sun. (universe) Notice God did not create light when he said, "let there be light" as he was calling the light that already existed to shine out of darkness as it tells us here in the New Testament. The earth was completely surrounded in darkness.

2Co 4:6.. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

It was not until day three that the Lord God allowed light to shine upon the earth.

 

[Abdicate]

God bless you brother. You have really good thoughts most all of the time, however IMO you have stepped off into real deep waters and maybe, just maybe you have allowed science and maybe mythology to effect your theology. You see, if what you are proposing is true, then it would seem to me that the Greeks were right after all. Zeus-pater (Jupiter) was indeed the controller of the cosmos in that era in Greek mythology, Aries was the ram with the Golden Fleece.

From one of those web sites (http://www.creationism.org/patten/PattenMarsEarthWars/PattenMEW03.htm) comes this perspective.
"Abraham was there, viewing the Rift Valley's northernmost finger. It was the trench containing the Jordan River and the Dead Sea. In the distance were fertile irrigated fields below, and five prospering cities. Two of them were Sodom and Gomorrah. A prosperous society there was reported to have given itself over to dissolution and to unnatural sex orgies. All five cities were suddenly engulfed in volcanic gases, ash and a few lava flows. Those lava flows and cinders still remain.

The "death angel" was the triggering agent for this extension to the Great Rift Valley system. Simply put, it was another of the close flybys of Mars. In this case, the "death angel" had a mass 11% of Earth's mass. It had two visible satellites, the sons of Arcturus in Hebrew, Deimos and Phobos in Greek. This angel had a name in Talmudic Hebrew texts; it was known both as the destructive angel of the Lord and as the evil archangel "Sammael."

The ancient Hebrew explanation for this event was the general wickedness and dissolute behavior in the five cities in the fertile plain at the bottom. Apart from the Hebrew explanation, and adding thereto, is that pressures had been building up for centuries, waiting for a trigger, to produce another extension in the Great African Rift Valley system.
A Mars flyby triggered the event. At that particular occasion, our estimate of the date was October, 1728 B.C.E. "

There are several other web sites that promote the teaching of "catastrophism", I am just not one who accepts those teachings.

I am no expert in any way whatsoever. But what I have been able to read and understand is that the African rift we are talking about was NOT caused by a "flyby" of the planet Mars but was and is an ongoing geological event cause by the reaction of tectonic plate activity. It seems to me that the Grand Canyon was caused by the Colorado Rive as it was the main drainage element for the Rocky mountains. At least that is what I remember from geology back in my day.

Thanks for the kind words.

 

[Major]

Thanks for the kind words.

I was in no way trying to un-kind. I was trying to place into perspective what you stated about a Mars fly by and its ramifications.

You without a doubt have put a lot of time into your opinion. I for one just had not heard of your explination.

I apologize if that was a problem for you.

 

[Major]

The problem with this view is what happens in Gen 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

For the dinos to exist in verse 1 and become extinct in verse 2, they would have had to exist with no light. No light, no green plants, no dinosaurs.

So then, for the fact that there were dinos due to their bones being found, it seems like you are saying that they existed before Genesis 1:1 in an andiluvian world and the water in verse 2 was the flood which destroyed them and God started over.

 

[Abdicate]

I was in no way trying to un-kind. I was trying to place into perspective what you stated about a Mars fly by and its ramifications.

You without a doubt have put a lot of time into your opinion. I for one just had not heard of your explination.

I apologize if that was a problem for you.

No brother. Don't read more into what I said. I was thanking you for your kind words.

God bless you brother. You have really good thoughts most all of the time

Does it matter if you believe me? Nope. Am I offended you don't believe me? Nope. You asked a question and I answered it. Nowhere does it say you have to believe me. I mean what I say and say what I mean. So, thank you for the kind words. Nothing more.

 

[Big Moose]

So then, for the fact that there were dinos due to their bones being found, it seems like you are saying that they existed before Genesis 1:1 in an andiluvian world and the water in verse 2 was the flood which destroyed them and God started over.

Not me. I think CCW95A and Grant were espousing this.
I had earlier given what I believe the scripture represents to me. I'll repost it so you don't have to search for it.::

The word "day" can be used to mean "age", "time period", or "era". A quick search on the Hebrew word used in Genesis for "day" will give you these other usages. Also Jesus himself used "day in this way:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

So, let's say that "day" in Genesis, as in "the evening and the morning were the first day", means time period. Thru Peter we learn that a day with the Lord is as 1000 years. I believe "is as (or like) a thousand years" just means a long period of time. Possibly as many as 1 million.

Now for the "evening and the morning were...". We all have heard the phrase "Dawn of the _____", whether Dawn of the Iron Age, or Dawn of the Age of Dinosaurs. "Morning" here in Genesis means morning or break of day or dawn.

"Evening" means evening or night or sunset. We all have heard the usage of the "sun setting on _______", whether on someones life, or an empire, or a time period.

"So the evening and the morning were the second day." could easily understood as "So the sunset of that age and the dawn of the next age ends the second age(era)."

In this way of thinking, the dinosaurs lived in the 5th age or era.
Genesis 1:20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

God says "creatures" and "birds". Scientists are now telling us that dinosaurs are actually the ancestors of birds. The Bible had this recorded long ago. Dinosaurs are these unspecified creatures and birds of verse 20. Animals that we know today were created on the sixth day(Age) in verse 24 and 25.

This is where you find dinosaurs in the Bible.

::Add to this, Genesis 2:
4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Obviously, the Lord did not make the earth and the heavens in one "day" as it says in verse 4. Here, just like in Chapter one, "day" is used as a time period, age, or era.

Genesis 1:1 is the statement of what is to be described in the rest of chapter 1. Chapter 2:4 is the "wrap up" of this section on the creation of the known universe.

 

[Major]

No brother. Don't read more into what I said. I was thanking you for your kind words.



Does it matter if you believe me? Nope. Am I offended you don't believe me? Nope. You asked a question and I answered it. Nowhere does it say you have to believe me. I mean what I say and say what I mean. So, thank you for the kind words. Nothing more.

Wonderful! I am glad to hear that!

 

[CCW95A]

At what time did God ever say, "let there be a earth without form, and void, with darkness upon the deep", and then start building upon that? Where did this earth come from? Did the Lord God just happen to be strolling through the universe one day, and then stumble upon the earth in its form, and then decided to make something out of it?
We know when God creates something new he does not use "existing" material, as he calls things out that are not and they come into being. As it is says here.

Heb 11:3.. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Was the earth at this time "visible" in Genesis 1:2 ?

Isa 45:18.. For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

 

[Major]

At what time did God ever say, "let there be a earth without form, and void, with darkness upon the deep", and then start building upon that? Where did this earth come from? Did the Lord God just happen to be strolling through the universe one day, and then stumble upon the earth in its form, and then decided to make something out of it?
We know when God creates something new he does not use "existing" material, as he calls things out that are not and they come into being. As it is says here.

Heb 11:3.. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Was the earth at this time "visible" in Genesis 1:2 ?

Isa 45:18.. For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

The Masons teach that God arranged mater already in existance and thus He is in their opinion "The Great Architect of The Universe".

 

[CCW95A]

The Masons teach that God arranged mater already in existance and thus He is in their opinion "The Great Architect of The Universe".

I think we can see in Genesis not only is God "creating" new things, but he is also recreating, and renewing the face of the earth from what ever it was (I believe it was God who brought the destruction upon the earth because of Lucifer's sin, and rebellion) that brought darkness, in making it void, and without form. There is no doubt a global flood brought with it total destruction, but not to a "full end" as God would not allow the earth to be 100% obliterated.

Psa 104:30.. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

The word, "renewest" means "to renew, restore. It refers to the renovating or reconstructing of various items: "

The Lord God for sure can fix things that are broken using the material left over, but when he creates new things they come into existence out of nothing. I believe the Latin word for this is, "ex nihilo" which means creation out of nothing.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.


I believe God gave the prophet Jeremiah a vision of that exact time when the earth was being made void.

Jer 4:23.. I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24.. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25.. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26.. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27.. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

I think what we see in Genesis 1:2 is what was left over from the earth as the results of God's judgement upon earth.

The dinosaurs would have lived during this time. Scientist today know that what ever killed the dinosaurs, it happen very quickly, so much so they call it, "The extinction event"

 

[calvin]

I think what we see in Genesis 1:2 is what was left over from the earth as the results of God's judgement upon earth.

Do you have proof, or really even a 'smoking gun' for this?
May I give you some food for thought?
In Gen 1:1. we are simply told that in the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth.
That seems to be a generalization and we should accept it as such.
Now look at some of the words used, or more properly the thoughts conveyed in verse 2.
The earth was without form and void..what exactly is without form if not having no form, shape, order, ie. nebulous?
What exactly is 'void' if not having no 'viability' (in the case of something having no form)?
Next what exactly is 'the deep' if not an abyss of immeasurable extent? Can't be an Ocean because the Earth as such has no form as yet.
Lastly what is the face of the waters? Here is a big problem for those who insist on the law of first use I think it is called.
Can it be water, as in H2O in liquid form? God at this point has not called light into existence and sinse heat is associated with light, how could liquid H2O (water) exist at that time? The best we could hope for would be a gigantic Ice block.
But if we allow another of the possible meanings for water, that is juice, (with licence), then the waters simply would mean the embryonic universe that God created back in V1 within that abyss .
So then we would have God looking on/over an incomprehensible vastness of nothing in which there is an embryonic universe. We would have the Spirit of God hovering over the basic building blocks of matter as a prelude to the creation and organization as begun in v3.

I am not suggesting that God made anything out of preexistant material as some might think, I'm simply trying to understand the creation process as best I can.
Your thoughts?

 

[Abdicate]

Genesis 1:2 is nothing more than a parenthetical statement of Genesis 1:1 to point out the state of the earth at that time. The Hebrew bares this out. There is no indication of judgement, no gap between the two verses, it's all unfounded speculation. The truth is God's giving a narrative, and explains how He did what He did so we could understand and believe His word. He's explaining that all the materials are there like legos spread out on a table, waiting for the Creator, well to create something. Void means empty, without form means, no form, DOH! He's saying there was nothing made yet. That's all. Then the Spirit broods over the "legos" getting them charged up. Then He speaks "ihi or" (exist light) and the word light also means energy which makes sense since the sun and moon were not made until day four. Visible light is but a fraction of the full spectrum of energy that exists in the universe. This energy is what's in every atom in the universe and that energy is Jesus holding it all together, Col 1:17, Eph 4:6. Don't spiritualize or explain away with odd theories, just read the word of God as it is intended, plain and simple. It's taken until the last 100 years just to understand what He wrote 5900 years ago, now that is a powerful word of God.

So God took that energy and divided it from the darkness. The word light also means luminary. Light reveals. The word darkness also means obscurity as in hidden. So we have the visible things (Day) and the invisible things (Night). The word night literally means to turn away from the light and comes from the root word for spiral step or to fold back. There are indeed all the stars and galaxies and energy we see, but there is a lot MORE we cannot see. Some things are black holes, dark matter, dark energy, because their affects are visible, but they themselves cannot be seen, Romans 1:20. The word night also means to grow dark.

The next verse is also as wonderful as the others. Waters. In Hebrew the word is always in the plural. There is no word for "water" it is always "waters". Just like sky, or heaven, it's always plural "heavens" "skies". This is because they're one in the same, divided, just as the word of God says with an expanse between them. This is where God put man. A dome if you will. We even call it "air pressure" or "barometric pressure" or "1 atmosphere". This atmosphere keeps our air from flying off into space and suffocating us. Waters below (fountains of the deep) and waters above (outer space). When God called the land to come forth, it came out from under the waters, Gen 1:9. The word for water in Hebrew is mayim. The word heaven or sky in Hebrew is shamyim. The difference seems big in English transliteration, but in Hebrew, it is only different by the letter shin in front of the word for water to make word heaven. In fact the letter shin by itself means "one of" or the number "two". So literally the waters above the expanse is called "one of the waters." This isn't the heaven of God's abode, but the abode of the stars. The most abundant atoms in the universe are Hydrogen, Helium, and Oxygen in that order. Water is H2O and Helium and Hydrogen are what make up the stars. Hydrogen literally means "water forming". It is made of just two elements: one electron and one proton. Balance. A negative and a positive. Day and Night. You cannot breath under the oceans and you can't breath in space. Waters. Amazing.

I guessing that's about all y'all can take right now. Just my two cents.

 

[Abdicate]

Oh and in case you ask, "Where did God get the legos from in your example?" Faith. It's the substance of things hoped for (expected), the evidence of things not seen! God had faith what He would speak would happen, and it did. He brought from the spiritual (things not seen) into the physical (things expected)! By the way, that's also why He spoke, Rom 4:17!

 

[CCW95A]

Isa 45:18.. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Did the Lord God create the earth to be without form, or in vain? Of course not, then why was the earth without form and in vain in Genesis 1:2? The word "vain" means...

תֹּהוּ
tôhû
to'-hoo
From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain: - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

The earth was never created by God in such a mess. "he created it not in vain,"

Did not all the angels "shout for joy" when God laid the foundation of the earth? Do you think they shouted for joy when they saw the earth void, without form, a wilderness, empty, a waste land, a place of confusion?

 

[Abdicate]

Isa 45:18.. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Did the Lord God create the earth to be without form, or in vain? Of course not, then why was the earth without form and in vain in Genesis 1:2? The word "vain" means...

תֹּהוּ
tôhû
to'-hoo
From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain: - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

The earth was never created by God in such a mess. "he created it not in vain,"

Did not all the angels "shout for joy" when God laid the foundation of the earth? Do you think they shouted for joy when they saw the earth void, without form, a wilderness, empty, a waste land, a place of confusion?

I've given a very suitable answer. Nothing left to say.

 

[calvin]

Well then I put forward the idea that humans had a lot to do with the extinction of Dinos, at least some of them. Here is a link to a recent article.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/20...iant-eggs-led-to-extinction-of-500-pound-bird
and another more recently posted article..
http://www.immortal.org/23408/genyornis-newton-extinction-theory/
All I would like to suggest is that where there is smoke there is fire......so.....
It is no longer a far fetched idea (of mine) that man, not E.L.E. brought about extinction for several species of dinosaurs.

 

[Countryside]

Most of them dinosawers were kinda big...they had trouble fittin' in lotsa places.