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When were the angels created?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Ginger, Feb 4, 2011.

  1. The Bible doesn't specifically say when God created the Angels, But, I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss.

    When I was a child I just assumed the angels were with God for thousands of years before God decided to created the universe. Then someone suggested they might have been created on the forth day:

    Genesis 1:
    14 Then God said: "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate day from night. Let them mark the fixed times, the days and the years,
    15 and serve as luminaries in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth." And so it happened:
    16 God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the lesser one to govern the night; and he made the stars.
    17 God set them in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth,
    18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. God saw how good it was.
    19 Evening came, and morning followed--the fourth day.

    Notice that at the end of verse 16 it says "and God made the stars". This is odd because verse 14 and 15 talk about God making the stars! The idea is the word translated "stars" refers to the creation of angels. There are other places in the Scriptures that refer to angels as "starts" to support that theory.
  2. If that is the case, then the rebellion of Satan and a third of Heaven would have had to happen between day 6 and the creation of Eve. I'm not really convinced of that, but it's a possibility. Somehow I just don't think this is the case. I also don't think there were thousands of "years" before God created the Universe. I'm relatively convinced that there wasn't really anything like time at all before then, as it really isn't necessary for Spiritual creations. It's all conjecture no matter which direction we go with it, but "stars = angels" seems to be a stretch. Possible, but requires some interpretation that doesn't seem to be inherent to the text.
  3. Just so we're clear, I'm not making any claims. I just think it's interesting to hear other peoples theories.

    If it was important for us to know, I'm sure God would have made it clear.

    As for the thousands of years, I was just a kid.

    Why would satan's rebellion have to be between day six and Eve?
  4. We're clear. I've just never heard of this theory, so I tend to talk the logic out a bit and see where it takes me. This is just where it took me on initial inspection.

    Well, there isn't much time for it to happen. God created the stars on the fourth day, and then Adam on the sixth. Eve came sometime after that and then Satan tempted her. So, sometimes between the creation of the Angels and Satan tempting Eve, the rebellion would have had to happen. It just doesn't seem to flow well to me.

    There are a few ways for this to happen, but they just seem unlikely to me. I know that some believe that there was no death prior to the fall. If that was the case, then Adam and Eve could have lived for thousands or millions of years before they tasted the fruit. That would further imply that either there was no such thing as birth or that there were offspring that were not part of original sin. No version of this really fits well with the rest of Scripture, so that creates some odd inconsistencies. Most of the work that you need to do to prove these types of things is just unnecessary interpretation of pretty clearly written text.

    In other words, all of these things are possible without making anything wrong, but these theories just seem very unlikely to me.
  5. The whole creation of heaven and angles has puzzled me for some time. The literal Genesis version seems too sort of "Earth centric" to me. Any way, I suppose between that and my own doubts re the possibility of evolution being part true, I guess I have to leave it as to me ultimately there is no doubt in my mind that God created everything - I'm just stuck on the details...
  6. So, we have an unspecified amount of time between the creation of Adam and the creation of Eve. If we knew how long it took Adam to name all the animals, we might have a rough estimate of the time passed until Eve. [​IMG]

    Then we know that at least a few days passed after Eve because God had a habit of walking in the garden with them every evening.

    I say it is very possible.

    The angels applauded God when He they watched Him creating, but at some point satan became jealous and rebelled. This could have happened before Eve as he watched God interacting with Adam. Or it could have been while he watched both of them interacting with God.

    It didn't have to happen before Eve, so That gives us several days. Which I think is plenty of time. I don't think it could have happened before humans because he seems to have been top dog before the rebellion. But when humans were created, God seems to have put greater value on us - the angels were created to serve humans. That's a pretty strong motive.

  7. It is a wonder. I made a decision to believe God, period. But I think about it, too. All these fossils of different humanoid beings. Some of it I can work into the Scriptures, but it's all a mystery.

    The Tower of Babel explains a lot, though.

    It's good you accept God, that's the important part. The how to's don't hurt your relationship to God. We can wonder about things because God created us to have an inquisitive nature. He knows we are curious and He doesn't expect us to get everything right.

    I try to be careful not to make absolute claims about things not clearly spelled out in Scriptures, tho.

  8. It is certainly feasible, but even that theory doesn't really address when Angels were created. If anything, it seems less likely because the ascent to such a high position now had to happen much, much faster. That leaves Satan 2 days of being in existence before Adam was created and everything started going against him. It may very well have happened that way, but it just feels like a stretch to me. Who knows, maybe it just doesn't feel right because it is different that what I'm used to.
  9. If I look at this from a purely Calvinist view, I think we can make this leap a little bit easier, because time stops being a factor. But I'll be honest, I've never quite understood that version of the fall so I'm probably not the best person to defend that point of view and I keep running in a logic circle in my mind when I take that route which only shows my ignorance of how the TULIP principles apply.

    At the very least, you've definitely given me something to think about. I'm curious where the idea came from originally. How was it decided that the stars were referring to angels? Understanding that may make this a bit easier.
  10. As we know, God created everything in six days. What constitutes a day in terms of God? He is infinite, so how can we ascribe His day as the 24 hours of man's?
  11. You're assuming he rose to his status? I figured he started out that way.....
    When I started school my mom lied my age and put me in first grade, but when the teacher asked how old I was I told her the truth. The next dfay I had to go to kindergarten.

    In first grade we sat at desks, but in kindergarten we had to sit on the floor. I was very upset and try to sneak out when the rest of the class took a bathroom break.

    The reason I'm sharing this is to say two days is enough to feel cheated over something...it only took me one day to rebel.

    Unfortunately I couldn't get the outside door open and the superintendent caught me and took me bacvk to my class. [​IMG]
  12. That's true, but since the "one day"we are talking about is in our physical world, I think it's probably a 24 hour time line. :)
  13. Hey! Do you want to move on to another theory?
  14. Good point. It was an assumption, mostly based on what appears to be the nature of Satan's lust for power, but I guess there is no reason for it. Still, it would be quite a fall in a relatively short period of time.

    I try to stick with the single day idea. It's too easy to get really speculative with each day being an arbitrarily large number. It's another one of those things that is "possible" but not definitive or obvious in any way from the text that we have. Since the account of Creation is definitely "Earth centered" as we have it in our Bibles, a 24 hour day would be the obvious assumption, and there is no reason to believe that the author didn't accept it as an Earth day. I know that a lot of very wise scholars believe this and I don't claim to be any wiser than they, but it just always felt a little bit contrived when I heard it.
  15. Always happy with that, but I would still like to know where the jump came from stars to angels. Any idea how that originated? If I understood the logic of it, maybe I can figure out how it works.
  16. I'll try to find it hang on......
  17. Yes. These discussions are fun and educational for me.
  18. Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
  19. Moving on....

    This is a copy and paste:

    In the Midrash Rabbah we find two opinions on this matter:
    The First:
    Rabbi Yochanan taught that angels were created on the second day of Creation. He sees this reflected in Psalms 104 where we read in the third verse: "Who roofs His upper chambers with water," and in the following verse, "He makes His angels spirits…" He therefore concluded that the angels where created on the second day, the same day that G-d divided the waters, creating an "upper chambers with water."
    In addition, in the description of the story of creation (Genesis 1), there’s an interesting lingual anomaly. After the first day of creation the Torah says, "It was evening it was day, one day." After the succeeding days, "It was evening it was day, the second day... third day... fourth day... etc." Following this sequence, after the first day the Torah should logically have said, "It was evening it was day, the first day"? Why "one day"? From this our Sages infer that the first day was a day of "oneness," when G-d was one and alone, for all His assistants, the angels, were created on the following day.
  20. Well, I don't hardly know what to say about this one, except that I never knew that verse in Psalms existed before now.

    Psalms 104: Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: [Who] laid the foundations of the earth, [that] it should not be removed for ever.

    Job 38:7 While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Maybe we should note that the Hebrew word for angel is used to refer to any messenger of God. In Job 1:14 one this same word is used when the first servant comes to inform Job that he has lost all his crops and his servants had been killed.

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