When Bible Study Isn't

[mistmann]

Obviously, it is self-evident, that it was a rebuke of their UNbelief. The 12 plus the 70 were granted multiple gifts as demonstrations that the Kingdom of God was "at hand."

Paul was not the 13th Apostle. He inherited nothing from them insofar as salvation by grace thru faith is concerned. The 12+70 knew nothing of the mystery, the secret hid in Christ and not revealed until after Acts 9, the Damascus Road experience of Paul. See Romans 16:25-27. Now move beyond 1 Corinthians 12:7, to 1 Corinthians 13:8-10. What does Paul write? During the transition from law to grace those gifts heralded the Messianic Kingdom of God. There were no Christian scriptures at that point. Once the promised Messianic Kingdom was placed on hold, the "gifts" faded away and were gone completely by the destruction of Jerusalem.

After Jesus' ascension miracles were evident. Acts 6 thru 8 record some of those. It didn't last. You can read 2 Corinthians 12:5-10, 1 Timothy 5:23, 2 Timothy 4:20, and Collisians 4:14 for examples.

Undoubtedly, God can do anything He wants to do. He is not now engaged in promises of an earthly Kingdom such as the Messianic Kingdom of God on earth, with Jesus on the Throne of David. Nothing even resembling that. He is now issuing his final warnings for all the nations that have gone astray. The Rapture looms large, not miracles and signs and wonders and healing.

Millions of people around the world have been misled by the heretical "ministries" of Benny Hinn, Kenneth & Gloria Copeland, Charles Capps, Mike Murdock, and a score of others on national TV and in their huge arenas. Today we need to minister the Truth of John 14:6, John 3:16-17, John 3:3, Romans 10:8-13, Ephesians 2:8-9, and a score of other spiritually comprehended scriptures which point to far more than faith healings, God sending money, homes, cars, prophets and prophetesses, and other gurus and their prattle; rather, to God's Amazing Grace: Life eternal.

Not sure why you think those passages are evidence that miracles no longer happen. After all in Jesus Christ Himself we see the lesson that having all the power and authority in the universe does not equate to total freedom from suffering and even death. The power of the Holy Spirit is not about personal wish fulfilment or physical well being as you pointed out, but about fulfilment of the will and purposes of the Lord. Which is why the fact somebody gets sick or dies is not evidence miracles no longer happen.

As to the "Messianic Kingdom of God" you might want to check out my Youtube video "Reality Bender 06: Hidden In The Dark" (Part1)" and "Reality Bender 06: Hidden In The Dark" (Part2)" . You may be surprised just how alive and well miracles and fulfilment of prophecy are.

But as to the last part it whilst there is indeed much false teaching about miracles it only makes it more imperative to properly understand the nature of the power and strength we have in Christ. Whilst a solid foundation to our faith and undersgtanding is essential we must not neglect the command to also GROW in our understanding, knowledge and faith. We cannot simply stop at a selected few passages and think we have done all we need to. Remember these passages:-

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[mistmann]

The Holy Spirit can indeed impart understanding of scriptures into our minds - I never said anything to dismiss this. How I discern if this is from the Holy Spirit is through studying the passage correctly. There are many rules on how to do this. Some of the most important ones are:

1) What did Jesus teach on the subject?
2) How does the interpretation of the passage fit in to the overall understanding of scripture - unclear texts must always be clarified using clear ones never the other way arround.
3) What was the context in which it was written - historical, cultural, etc.
4) How often does this particular message or theme get repeated in the bible? Does your interpretation conflict with the others if it does it is probably wrong.

In short the rules of hermenuetics will guide you into determining as close as possible to what the Holy Spirit had in mind when that particular piece of scripture was written.

Again I urge you to research how bible interpretation is done - even if you reject it, get a better understanding on how it is done. All you need to do is learn the methods which acknowledge that the bible is Spirit breathed and authorised by God - applying liberal methods (man is the author) will fail.

The example I used on Calvanism and Armenianism was to illustrate that two major theologies seemingly disagree but yet are both completely scripturally accurate - this does not mean that the bible contains error but more that man has yet to grasp the depths of God and understand Him fully. I am referring in particular to the doctrine on perserverance - Calvanism - once saved always saved; Armenianism - man can lose his salvation. I can give you many scriptures which support both views it all depends on which scriptures one holds in a higher authority.

"Understanding the Scriptures is not a complex process it is a spiritual phenomenon. A gift of the Father through the Holy Spirit." If this where completely true then we would have no need for earthly teachers of the word and there would be no conflicting theologies in regards to doctrine. It is essential to be dependant on the Holy Spirit but we are still required to study scripture -

2Ti 2:15

Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

What you call "hermenuetics" I tend to call "common sense" But you might have noted I already use all these "rules" in understanding what is written even though having never been formally trained in it. I would be surprised if the Holy Spirit allowed those in whom He dwells to do otherwise.

"applying liberal methods (man is the author) will fail".

Of course it will, that is why I emphasis the need to understand what IS actually written, not interprete it to what you THINK is or should be written.

"In short the rules of hermenuetics will guide you into determining as close as possible to what the Holy Spirit had in mind when that particular piece of scripture was written."

But if I have the indwelling Holy Spirit Himself will he not guide me, not "close as possible" but exactly to what HE had in mind? How would "rules" taught by men guide better than the Holy Spirit Himself? Will not the Holy Spirit guide us in the "rules" of understanding as well as the understanding itself? Is not the test "does it ACCORD with what is WRITTEN" not "have I followed all the rules"? What happens if you have followed all the rules but still end up with an understanding that is not in accordance with what is written?

The acid test ALWAYS comes back to accordance with what is WRITTEN, it cannot come back to anything else BUT that. But to apply the test we must keep our eyes firmly on what is ACTUALLY written and judge our understanding in accordance with what is written, not how well we "followed the rules".

"If this where completely true then we would have no need for earthly teachers of the word and there would be no conflicting theologies in regards to doctrine. It is essential to be dependant on the Holy Spirit but we are still required to study scripture -"

I think we need teachers initially when we are but "babes" in Christ to teach us how to LISTEN to and be guided by the Holy Spirit. But the person who knows how to listen carefully to the teaching and guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit already HAS a teacher far, far greater than any human teacher, would you agree?

The reason we have conflicting theologies is not a failing of the Holy Spirit but the prevelance of a great many false teachers and prophets, making reliance on the guidance of the Holy Scripture and testing against what is written of even greater importance, not less. As to studying what is written, that goes without saying for we must test ALL spirits against what is written, especially that spirit that is within us, to see if they are from the Lord or not.

As to that "once saved always saved" versus "it is possible to lose our salvation" I am surprised ANY follower of Christ would be uncertain as to what the Bible declares (which is that it IS possible to lose our salvation):-

Ex 32:33 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book"

Re 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Actually there are a great many theological debates going on that astonish me by their existence when the matter is already firmly settled by the word of the Lord Himself.

 

[revlynn]

I appreciate that you are leaving the conversation but I must make the observation that John 12:37-41 is speaking of Isa 53 while the one who is high and lifted up is referred to in Isa 6, almost opposite ends of Isaiah.

No, the John passage is not referring to Isaiah 53. Jn 12:40 is a quote from Isaiah 6:10.

I'm gone now.

blessings,

Lynn

 

[mistmann]

No, the John passage is not referring to Isaiah 53. Jn 12:40 is a quote from Isaiah 6:10.

I'm gone now.

blessings,

Lynn

Lynn I appreciate you have left the conversation so I am not expecting you to respond to this and do not wish to put any pressure on you to do so. This observation is more for those who are likely watching this conversation and thinking about the things we both have said. In effect I am responding for their benefit and their own pursuit of understanding, not to hold you to a discussion you do not wish to continue. I will try therefore to make it an observation about the passages themselves rather than a response to you personally.

As I noted previously we must be careful not to confuse who Isaiah is speaking to and who they are speaking about. Isaiah 52 & 53 are clearly speaking not about Jehovah Himself but about His "Righteous Servant" (Isa 53:11) Christ Jesus, and it is Isa 53:1 that John first quotes. The interesting thing about Isa 6:10 is that it is spoken, not as a prophecy about Christ (although it clearly is related to Christ) but as an actual INSTRUCTION to Isaiah himself.

Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said: ‘Here am I; send me.’ 9 And He said: ‘Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.’ 11 Then said I: ‘Lord, how long?’

But it is a concept Isa also repeated in Isa 44:18.

But if we read what John said IN THE LIGHT of what Isaiah said we find some very interesting things. Firstly we know from Isa 6 that Isaiah was speaking TO the one on the Throne "high and lifted up" and identified as Jehovah Himself. But in Isa 53 that John quoted Jehovah was not speaking of Himself but of His "righteous servant" the ARM of the Lord. We also know from Isa 6:10 that Jehovah was issuing an instruction to Isiah himself. It then makes John's words in John 12:39-40 a little ambigous because it says, "39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart...". BUT we know from Isa 6:10 it was ISAIAH that was instructed to MAKE them unseeing and unhearing. It is Jesus who makes the blind to see and the deaf to hear (eg. Isa 29:18, Isa 30:20-21, Isa 32:3).

Another interesting anomoly is that John 12:10 says "...and be converted, and I should heal them", But Isa 6:10 says only "and convert, and be healed.".

Another thing to note is that John divorces the quote about seeing and healing from the first quote by saying (Isa12:39) "...because that Esaias said again" meaning either he repeated it or that he said it elsewhere (in the sense "said furthermore" or "elsewhere".).

The final interesting point I noted is that John 12:41 says, "These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.". BUT we know from Isaiah 6 that when Isaiah saw the glory of the one on the throne who was "high and lifted up" Isaiah spoke TO Him. But in Isa 52 & 53 is where he speaks OF Jesus Christ.

But using those "rules" we have been speaking of it is Isaiah himself and not John who provides the greater information, clarity, and certainty and is far, far less ambigous. Isa 52 & 53 have only one understanding and that is the words of Jehovah Himself speaks of His "righteous servant", the "arm of the Lord" in the THIRD person and not of Himself. The words of the Lord through Isaiah leave no room for doubt whatsoever that the one Jehovah calls HIS "righteous servant" is not Himself, but another we now know is Christ Jesus.

Moreover this understanding also renders the words of John to be true and is in accordance with them.

Regards Misty.

 

[Kevin]

As to that "once saved always saved" versus "it is possible to lose our salvation" I am surprised ANY follower of Christ would be uncertain as to what the Bible declares (which is that it IS possible to lose our salvation):-

In essence you support the Armenian position - I also do to some extent but how then do we explain the following verses:

Phil. 1:6; 2 Tim. 1:12; Jude 24; 1 Pet. 1:5; John 6: 39-40; John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:34; 1 Jn. 2:1-2; John 10: 27-30; John 17:11, 15, 24; Rom. 8:34; Heb 7:25.
These verses state that God is able, powerful and promises to keep those safe until Jesus returns. Apart from that Jesus intercedes on our behalf so how can His prayers fail? Based on these scriptures it seems impossible to lose one's salvation because our salvation is a work of God - the only possiblity to explain apostacy is that those who lose salvation never had it in the first place hence we have the Calvanist belief.

The object here is not to dispute the two theories but to show that there is valid Holy Spirit inspired scripture to support both.

 

[mistmann]

In essence you support the Armenian position - I also do to some extent but how then do we explain the following verses:

Phil. 1:6; 2 Tim. 1:12; Jude 24; 1 Pet. 1:5; John 6: 39-40; John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:34; 1 Jn. 2:1-2; John 10: 27-30; John 17:11, 15, 24; Rom. 8:34; Heb 7:25.
These verses state that God is able, powerful and promises to keep those safe until Jesus returns. Apart from that Jesus intercedes on our behalf so how can His prayers fail? Based on these scriptures it seems impossible to lose one's salvation because our salvation is a work of God - the only possiblity to explain apostacy is that those who lose salvation never had it in the first place hence we have the Calvanist belief.

The object here is not to dispute the two theories but to show that there is valid Holy Spirit inspired scripture to support both.

Correction, I accept the BIBLICAL position not the Armenian position. I am sure there is probably something in the
armenian positiion that is not in accordance with what is written also. This is a problem when other people (not saying you are doing it, just that others have tried to do it many times in the past) try and stick a label on me and presume to know what I believe. What I believe is what the Bible SAYS, not what this or that school of thought says. THAT I test against what the Bible says.

But the fact that the Lord has declared He is prepared to blot out names that are entered into the Book of Life is and unequivocal declaration from the Lord Himself that it is possible for Him to do that and that He is prepared to do that. But ask yourself how can you fool a God who can see all of the past, present and future into giving you that which He already knows you will not deserve?

The solution lies in the fact that the Lord will not loose any that HE has chosen to save. But ask yourself when is the FINAL descision made as to who will be saved?

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Remember Judas Iscariot? CHOSEN to be an Apostle even though his betrayal and final fate was already known. One of those sent out with the power to heal and cast out demons. Accompanying Christ as an apostle of equal standing until the final days - and yet destined not to be saved as far as we know (for the Lord alone decides who is and is not saved). On the day of judgement his fate also will rest on whether or not his name is found in the Lamb's Book of Life.

 

[Major]

Mistmann, I encourage you to go and study the rules of hermeneutics - the rules for scriptural interpretation. There are many sound rules which need to be applied when interpreting scripture and the more one does the better one becomes at it.

The seminary where I am a student - teaches a Christocentric approach which implies that all scripture must be interpreted based on what Jesus actually taught on it - since Jesus is the author and creator of our faith. If we interpret a passage of scripture and our conclusions conflict with what Jesus taught then we need to go back and start again. For example many churches preach that a literal hell does not exist but this flies in the face of what Jesus taught, who most definitely taught about a literal hell. False teachers replace the truth with their own understanding and literally replace God as the author of the bible. Instead of humbly accepting they cannot understand the concept of eternal punishment they change interpretation of scripture.

Also scripture cannot always be interpreted literally because some passages of scripture use figures of speech to get the message across - problem lies in identifying those figures of speech especially in the Hebrew scripts. We need to know the different figures of speech, some are easy because they are the same in english eg. metaphors but some are not so easy and a sound understanding of the actual original language is needed.

We also need to do intensive word studies to see what words are used, what verbs are used, the tenses etc etc etc. Then we need to see how those words are structured in paragraphs - where do they begin and end, what was said before and after?

One simple rule is that scripture cannot mean anything it did not mean for it's original readers. Scripture has one meaning but can have different applications.
To change the original meaning implies that the interpretor becomes the author and replaces God. This is called eisogesis - which is very common in churches today. The correct method is to apply exogesis - find out what the original text actually means and what it's intention was and how do we apply it today without changing it's meaning. Exogesis is a much more 'boring' approach but takes time and dedication but reveals the truth. Eisogesis is a quick "what scripture means to me is truth to me" method which requires no training or dedication and usually results in false teaching. Eisogesis also tends to over spiritualise the word of God, taking sometimes practical teachings and making them super spiritual. If we replace the author of scripture (God) with ourselves then we have a pseudo-religion no better than all the other worldy religions designed by man.

Lets take a commonly misused piece of scripture today: "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" Phil: 4:13.

In context Paul was relating to all his sufferings he has endured for the sake of the gospel. The passage talks about endurance in Christ - we find our strength in Christ to preach the gospel in very difficult and life threatening circumstances.

This text does not mean that we can literally do anything in Christs strength - we cannot walk through walls - otherwise Paul would have walked out of prison.
I have heard many false teachings on this verse but what it really speaks about is endurance in Christ - not some magical spell to get us out of all tough times. It was never written to be some kind of all encompassing motivational teaching instead it was written by a man who was in prison for Christ who faced possible death but through the blessings of the church (vs.14) was able to endure in Christ for Christ.

Over the years there has been much debate over the meaning of some doctrines especially between the Calvanist's and Arminian's. Take for example the doctrine of perserverance - both sides have brilliant scriptural backup for their beliefs and nobody has yet to reconcile the difference between them. A good understanding of both is needed together in prayer but here's the important thing - if one is saved and serving God then it does not matter which one is preferred, the differences only become relevant when a saved person backslides and even then only that individual actually knows if they still serve God or have walked away forever - theology then is irrelevant and their faith is everything.

The interpretation of scriptures is a complex process and one which I encourage all Christians to learn - commentaries should only be relied upon at the very last stage just to see what other theologians believe - this is how one cuts out the garbage from the Godly.

God bless

Kevin,
Outstanding post my friend! Keep up with your studies, YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK!

 

[Major]

Did you note that the "mustard seed" reference by Christ was actually a rebuke of their UNBELIEF. They could not cast out the demon because they were unable but because they didn't believe they could. Have you ever wondered how many things you are actually able to do in Christ but, like those disciples, defeat yourself because you do not believe you can?

But why do you think Jesus limits the working of miracles to just the 12 (actually 13 if you include Paul) and the 70? Note what lies among the gifts of the Spirit spread liberally among the body of Christ with no time limit:-

1 Cor 12:7 " But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

Is Christ now unable to work miracles in today's world? Is Christ now unable to use "modern man" to fulfill His purposes? What exactly is it you think prevents Christ from doing now what He could do then?

Here is something worth meditating on:-

We have within us the Holy Spirit of the Lord and we have in our hands the word of the Lord. But have we so soon forgotten that every prophet of the Lord had no more than what we have today - the spirit and word of the Lord. BUT what they had that we lack - is FAITH in them both.
Regards Misty.

Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest miracle of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Dok]

mistman, I listened to/read your "reality bender" parts 1 & 2. I've read your series of posts in this thread. I can only say that faulty hermeneutics is the result of the absence of Holy Spirit insight into scripture. Yield to Him, and try again. Blessings!

 

[gemma]

..........The object here is not to dispute the two theories but to show that there is valid Holy Spirit inspired scripture to support both.

...I accept the BIBLICAL position not the Armenian position. I am sure there is probably something in the
armenian positiion that is not in accordance with what is written also..........

I agree with both of them based on what they have said above.

 

[mistmann]

Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest miracle of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

Miracles are not just about getting people to believe but also as a sign of the presence and authority of the Lord. But in addition to this they are to aid us in the work of Christ and sometimes just because His children ask for one. Not all miracles were performed in public or openly and "noised about" but performed purely because a miracle was needed at that point.

The main reason you do not see so many miracles these days is because the world suppresses information about them being spread around. People these days rely less and less on word of mouth and more and more on the world's media industry for their information. But the media industry is not known for its support of those who follow Christ.

But there is an even sadder reason and that is people are being encouraged to not expect miracles but rather to SUSpect miracles and to believe miracles are a thing of the past. One of the biggest impediments to miracles these days is the increasing UNbelief of miracles in the wider "Christian" community. Where you see a decline in miracles it is usually preceded by a decline in belief and faith in miracles.

To preach miracles are a thing of the past is a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy if you can get people to start believing it.

 

[Major]

mistman, I listened to/read your "reality bender" parts 1 & 2. I've read your series of posts in this thread. I can only say that faulty hermeneutics is the result of the absence of Holy Spirit insight into scripture. Yield to Him, and try again. Blessings!

As have I and we are in agreement.

 

[mistmann]

mistman, I listened to/read your "reality bender" parts 1 & 2. I've read your series of posts in this thread. I can only say that faulty hermeneutics is the result of the absence of Holy Spirit insight into scripture. Yield to Him, and try again. Blessings!

Yes, I've often wondered how so many supposed experts and well trained and educated people can get it so wrong. Have you not often wondered why Jesus bypassed and criticised the religious leaders and "experts" of the day and chose as His disciples "unlearned and ignorant men" (Ac 4:13)? Why the Lord opened the understanding of "babes" and not that of the "wise and prudent" (Matt 11:25 & Luke 10:21)? I would hazard a guess that it was because He knew the wise and prudent, the learned and "knowledgeable" tended to have attention to the Holy Spirit trained and educated out of them and they had been conditioned to believe that salvation was the reward of much education and training and not a gift by the Grace of God alone.

That the Lord granted greater understanding and knowledge to "unlearned and ignorant men" was a wake up call to the religious establishment who thinking that they, by faith and trust in their learning and training and traditions, had got it so right, had in fact got it totally wrong.

I, like the Apostles, am an "unlearned and ignorant man" in the eyes of the world. I have no formal religious education to count as loss as Paul did. But it also means I cannot erroneously boast of it as the cause and source of my understanding. If I have knowledge, it is from the Lord. If I have understanding it is from the Holy Spirit. I will boast of no other source than it is a gift by the grace of my Father in Heaven alone.

I do not look to the letters behind a person's name to judge if I should rely on their word or not. The only letters I look to are those in the word of my Lord.

What many people fail to grasp is that truth is not found in the many words of many experts but in the REALITY around them. What is a FACT of REALITY is what is true and what is true is a FACT of reality. My videos declare what the Bible actually says and what world history and archaeology actually records. As with most of my Reality Bender videos I leave it to the viewer to check out the facts of reality for themselves and reach their own decision and understanding as to what it all means, and the implications of it, in their own counsel with the Holy Spirit. The beauty of truth and the facts of reality is that you may dismiss them, ignore them, deny them, ridicule them, etc. but you can never CHANGE them or make them go away.

Judge for yourself what the Lord has actually written, judge for yourself what history records, That is why the Lord has given you eyes to see and ears to hear and a mind to ponder on what you see and hear. Whoever's word you choose to believe above all others is the one in who you put YOUR trust and faith. I choose to believe the word of the Lord ABOVE all others, in whose word do you put your faith and trust??

 

[Dok]

in whose word do you put your faith and trust??

Whoa! I'm surprised you asked that! There's only one Word.

 

[Dok]

only become relevant when a saved person backslides and even then only that individual actually knows if they still serve God or have walked away forever - theology then is irrelevant and their faith is everything.

Kevin, I reviewed your very well-written post, including the quotation. Question: Does it suggest that one can "backslide" all the way out of salvation, returning to "lost," as in hell-bound?

Thanks!

 

[mistmann]

Whoa! I'm surprised you asked that! There's only one Word.

Just for clarification that's all.

So if somebody is teaching you how to interpret the scriptures do you judge what the scriptures say according to what they say or do you judge what THEY say according to what the scriptures say? Which one do you believe and which one do you judge? Do you believe what the scriptures actually SAY more than what those teaching you say or do you believe what those teaching you say more than what the scriptures say?

Jesus in declaring biblical authority did not say "it is taught", He said "it is written" meaning the actual word of the scriptures there on the page is the HIGHER authority, not the word and interpretations of those who teach it. We are to discern who is and who is not a false teacher and we can ONLY do that based on what is independently written in the scriptures themselves. We cannot judge one teaching by another teaching because they BOTH may be false teachings. We have only the scriptures as the INDEPENDENT voice of the Holy Spirit and of the Lord and of Jesus. Everything else comes to us by the word of others who may or may not be speaking the truth.

But the moment you allow somebody else to interprete the scriptures for you, or indeed interprete them yourself, they cease to be, for you, the independent word of the Lord for you cannot discern what comes from somebody's imagination (including your own) and what comes from the Lord. Only what is written do we know for certain comes from the Lord.

The Lord opens OUR eyes and ears to the truth and yet there are those who try and convince us that we cannot trust OUR eyes and ears that the Lord Himself has opened but must trust THEIR eyes and ears. So again comes the question, in reading the scriptures there on the page as we ALL can do for ourselves WHOSE eyes and ears do you trust? Those the Lord has given us AND expects us to use (otherwise why open them), or somebody elses who may or may not be a false teacher or false prophet?

 

[Dok]

We have only the scriptures as the INDEPENDENT voice of the Holy Spirit

Yes, and Amen! It is the Holy Spirit who recognizes and points out heretical interpretation and application of scripture. Only He enables the authentically born-again Believer to know error when s/he sees it. Only He provides a storehouse of faultless information for the Christian to access and share. Only He sits down with us in Bible study. It doesn't get more awesome than that!

 

[mistmann]

Yes, and Amen! It is the Holy Spirit who recognizes and points out heretical interpretation and application of scripture. Only He enables the authentically born-again Believer to know error when s/he sees it. Only He provides a storehouse of faultless information for the Christian to access and share. Only He sits down with us in Bible study. It doesn't get more awesome than that!

Then why do you think it an error for me to believe what the Bible itself actually says?? By what the Bible itself actually says (for I rightly declare what the words on the page actually say)? Or do you judge me wrong by how YOU have been taught to interprete what is written and not what is actually written?

If what I say is what the Bible indeed actually says, what indeed is actually written, but not necessarily what OTHERS think or declare it says, however "learned" they may appear to be, by what test do you think I am not listening to the Holy Spirit if what the Bible actually says is the independent voice of that same Holy Spirit? Is not the test, that what we say must accord with what is actually written in the Bible? Should not even supposedly learned and wise men and religious leaders be subjected to that same test? And yet so many widely believed and upheld teachings in the Christian community do not accord with what is written.

 

[Dok]

I'm sure you are familiar with Paul's instruction to Timothy to "rightly divide" scripture. Timothy needed to be clear on what was passing away (the Law) and the nature of the Good News, grace. Timothy could not look to the origins of Matthew, Mark, and Luke in witnessing to Gentiles. He could reference them when speaking to Jews, but he needed to make it clear that the teachings of Jesus to Jews in that day were applicable to the Kingdom of God, which had been "at hand." Once the Jews rejected Jesus as the Christ, the promise of the Kingdom of God on earth was phased out. It would not come into view again until after the Rapture, after the Tribulation, after Armageddon. The Jews needed to understand that; the Gentiles, knowing nothing of the Kingdom promise, needed to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord by grace through faith, the gift, not of the former Jewish law, rules, regulations, traditions, Kingdom promises, ceremonial washings / bathings, the Sabbath, others (a long list). Those Jews who gained insight into what was being offered to the Gentiles and accepted it, salvation by grace through faith, were saved, not of the works of the law, but of God's amazing grace.

Until we Christians learn to rightly divide scripture we will burden ourselves with the idea that the miracles / healings / promises available to the 12 + 70 as they went out to announce the Kingdom, are available today. They heralded the "at hand" Kingdom of God. Alas, the Jews rejected it, failed to connect the promises of old with the blessing of their Messiah, Jesus.

Failing to rightly divide does not mean that one is lost, bound for hell if one does not do that. It does mean that unnecessary burdens and misinterpretations and yes, heresies, are passed along to unsuspecting millions today, ala Hinn, Murdock, the Copelands, Capps, Meyer, and so many others on “Christian” TV, in local churches, in huge arenas.

 

[Kevin]

Kevin, I reviewed your very well-written post, including the quotation. Question: Does it suggest that one can "backslide" all the way out of salvation, returning to "lost," as in hell-bound?

Thanks!

Hi Dok,

I dont want to hijack this thread so I will try and answer you briefly. In Christianity today the two most predominant beliefs regarding the doctrine of perserverance are the Armenian and Calvanist theories.

Armenian theology believes that a fully saved person can indeed lose their salvation and reach a state of total apostacy and there are many scriptures which support this (1 Jn. 2:24-25; Jn 15:1-8; Heb 2.1-3; Heb. 3:12; Col. 1: 21-23; 2 Tim. 2:10; Heb. 10:35-39; 1 Pe. 1:10-11; Rev. 2:4-5). Most of these scriptures state that there is a condition to our salvation.

The Calvanist theology believes that our salvation is eternally safe in God's hands. I have given a lot of the scripture in a previous post.

Both of these are biblical beliefs founded in scripture. Seemingly there apears to be a contradiction but we know the bible is infallible and cannot contradict itself and the interpretation must be not fully understood.

Personally I believe that it comes down to faith. If we truely have faith in Jesus we will desire to obey Him and therefore our salvation is safe, but if we do not have true saving faith we will never be saved due to our sinful nature. This in essence is the Calvanist belief. Only we know if our faith is true as it will result in a desire to serve both God and man unconditionally.

Hope this helps

God Bless