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What Is The Second Coming?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Brian Mickelsen, Jul 13, 2012.

  1. I have come to understand that the second coming of Christ is not what most people think it is. See if you agree at the linked videos at the address below. If you are so inclined let me know what you think.

    Respectfully - Brian

    http://www.youtube.com/user/brmicke?feature=guide
     
  2. Jesus is coming again at the Rapture for ALL believers. He will not come to the earth but will resurrect all believers and take us all to heaven.

    Approx. 7 years later He will come again and the He will place His feet on this earth and the Kingdom will begin and run for 1000 years.
     
  3. Brother - I know you are sincere and that you love Jesus.

    However the hope you have is one based on the expectation of a "Rapture".

    A hope based on an expectation of a Rapture is akin to the hope or vision of building a bigger Church building.

    This type of hope is not one based on becoming Christlike. The mystery of Godliness is "Christ in You" or "Christ Jesus indwelling Major and then making Him Christlike".

    It is not "Wait for the Rapture" and then go to heaven.

    Please consider this in the spirit of kindness from which it comes. Your opinion is shared by most of the Christian denominational world. So what is the spiritual condition or level of comittment of the vast majority of denomination Christianity?

    What would you immediately think that common worldwide opinion would indicate? My answer to that question would be - if the majority thinks that something (an opinion) is right then it is to be questioned rigorously. A majority opinion clearly means that it must be a broad enough to accomodate the majority of people and their opinions. Jesus said however that the way is broad ... You know the rest of the verse.

    Most Christian people base their understanding on a gospel that has been interpreted for them. They have no idea of the spiritual comittment of the people who originally formed those doctrines. So if a pornographer wrote the doctrinal statement they would not know this - this is just an extreme example to make the point that we have no idea of the personal activities or way of like associated with the people who formed these doctrinal opinions and yet most Christians base their lives and spiritual hopes on their opinions without question.

    So my thinking may only serve to show you that there are other views that are scriptural as well as the one you have adopted. I have written many articles linked at the following site. This link is provided is to show you that there are to my understanding no glaring problems with these general doctrinal statements as they are presented in the video clips you saw. The simplicity of these ideas in and of themselves should indicate to you that this is at least worth consideration.

    2 Corinthians 11:3
    But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    http://brmicke.yolasite.com/

    http://www.angelfire.com/ab7/brmicke/

    God bless you brother - Brian
     
  4. And may the Lord bless you as well............BUT, do you have any idea how many Rapture threads have been discussed on this site??????

    I know you mean well, but I for one have read, studied the SCRIPTURES not commentaries now for about 50 years.
    I have gone into depth in every conceivable teaching that is out there. Pretrib, Mid-Trib, Post Trib, NO Trib, and it goes on and on and on.

    To me, the Rapture, and then 7 year Tribulation IS the most Biblically sound teaching that is available. That is what I believe, comment on and with all due respects to you, reading what you have produced as the contrary will have no effect on me and my understanding.
     
  5. Me thinks we have seen this guy before?
     
  6. I think so too!
     
  7. Brian stated in his comment, which I just re-read........

    "Brother - I know you are sincere and that you love Jesus.

    However the hope you have is one based on the expectation of a "Rapture".


    That is catagoricaly wrong. My hope is in the befief that the Scriptures are true because it is in those Scriptures we find the Gospel. It is our faith in the Lord Jesus which is our hope and expectation. Jesus IS eternal life. IN Him springs all hope and joy and peace.

    IF there was no Rapture taught in the Scriptures that would be fine with me. The fact is that I accepted Christ as my Savior before I knew anything about a Rapture. I came to Christ because I was a sinner in need of a Savior NOT a Rapture.

    I like everyone one else who studied the Scriptures learned of the Rapture AFTER being saved and it had nothing whatsoever to do with being a believer.


    I think we all need to think through what we say before we say it and then we would NOT say some of the things we say.
     
  8. For me, the "second coming" happened when Jesus came into my heart, ever since then, my heart has been 'enraptured' by Jesus.

    I don't believe that we have understood (interpreted correctly) too much of an "end times" from scripture. This is the age of eternity....

    ......."prophecy" is for FUTURE (in eternity, there is no such thing as FUTURE).
     
  9. Hi Major - No I just got in this site so I have no idea how many Rapture discussions have been in this forumn. Many I should think.

    I have no desire to argue - Just to expose you to my point of view and let the chips fall where they may.. Having done that -

    Take care brother - Brian
     
  10. I understand my friend but I just wanted you to know that the Rapture has been argued/discussed/debated/etc.
     
  11. Hi Brother - I know there are many views on the rapture and I also have studied this for 30 years or thereabouts.

    I have no views on the rapture except to say it is a scripturally non-existant doctrine. You may or may not be aware of my article on this but at any rate here is the link --

    http://brmicke.yolasite.com/rapture-parable-decoded.php

    As you know this has not been approached from the standpoint that I have taken in the videos. That is why I am bringing it forward in the video manner that I have. You will find my articles which led me to this understanding at the links that are attached to the facebook and youtube videos. I do apologize for the bad quality of the videos. I am not that familiar with how to clear up the images yet, but am getting there (possibly).

    I have presented this thinking for over a decade in written form with little response. Now I have started to do so in a video format. I know that this will be viewed with suspicion however it really is the clearest view and the most simple approach I am aware of.

    Precisely because the Gospel is Hidden from the Wise (prideful), I personally would be mistaken to believe that it will be understood by most people.

    Most people cannot abandon their traditions long enough to even consider this simple approach (that being - Jesus Second Coming is when the individual first puts their faith in Him, Acts 3:19-21). But it makes sense because Jesus came the first time to die on the cross and the second time He comes it is for salvation, Heb 9:28.

    We are saved from God's wrath {being saved = salvation} (Gods wrath is revealed against ungodliness Romans 1:18) when there is no reason for that wrath to be expressed.

    In other word we are completely saved when we are sinless, which is what the grace of God teaches us to become - titus 2:11-12. The grace of God teaches us to abstain from ungodliness.

    Heb 9:28 and its translation is somewhat more clearly seen in the JB phillips translation -

    Heb 9:28 so it is certain that Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many and after that, to those who look for him, he will appear a second time, not this time to deal with sin, but to bring them to full salvation.

    It is important to understand that the doctrinal confusion (which is very widespread) on the part of the so called wise and scholarly (prideful), is by design. A parable is meant to confound the wise. Matthew 13:11-12.

    Jesus is in control, and the salvation of countless millions is proceeding at this time. They are all at various levels of understanding precisly because of the personal aspect of both the second coming and salvation, which are mentioned in my video clips.

    One of the formost reasons that I think it is correct is that it is simple. As you know the simplicity of the gospel has been complicated to the point of being accessible to only a few who understand the complicated manner in which end time events are thought by (scholarly) Christendom to unfold. These views as you are well aware lead only to seperation into various camps (or congregations and denominations) which are seperated by the various viewpoints.

    Gods real plan is far beyond these disputs (which are encouraged by the world). As is seen everywhere the Second Coming I speak of is happening to everyone who accepts Christ, regardless of the denomination they choose to adhere to. By this I mean that every person who expresses faith in Jesus experiences the indwelling of Christ Jesus and this original spiritual indwelling is what I understand to be the second coming of Jesus.

    All of man's fantasies cannot stop this reality. Even if a young Christian gets confused by the worldly concepts it does not take anything away from the truth because Jesus still indwells the persons heart. Jesus tolerates their misunderstanding because He loves His children and thankfully our salvation is not based on our knowledge but on our faith in Christ Jesus.

    These theories cannot incorporate the simple statements because the simple statements -

    (such as Jesus coming into a persons heart {keep in mind that this is not the first coming from Heb 9:28 but the second which is for salvation})

    - threaten the almost corporate level of business that the world admires. There is nothing to buy or sell.

    This is for a reason - Jesus thanked the Father that the wise and prudent had the truth hidden from them while the simple did not.

    Matthew 11:25

    At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    By design the truth is simple and it is complicated only by allegory to keep the wise from understanding it. The truths however remain the same. Thus the simple understand it while the so called wise are mired in confusing doctrinal stances. I (please don't don't attribute a delusional attitude to me) feel God has let me put the gospel story together recognizing this fact.

    Now since I am convinced of this approach please allow me to speak from that standpoint for a moment. Consider that God is still honoring your pursuit to understand the gospel plan and is now revealing these truths to you at this time, and through these videos. The Lord will of course confirm this in your heart if it is true.

    Thanks for your time - Brian
     
  12. No problem my brother. I have more time than money.

    Of course I have to disagree with your comment of............

    "I have no views on the rapture except to say it is a scripturally non-existant doctrine."

    God IMHO has always planned for a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. He has placed a "typt" or a "picture" all through the Scriptures.

    Genesis 5:24
    "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took Him away. "
    In Matt. 24:37, Jesus said that the time of His coming would be like the days of Noah. He went onto explain that just as all the unbelievers perished in the flood, all unbelievers would perish at the time of His 2nd coming as well. Those who survive the devastation of the Great Tribulation will immediately face judgment and be taken off the planet. The parables of the servant, the ten virgins, and the talents explain this, as does the account of the Sheep and Goat judgment. (Matt. 24:45-25:46)
    There some interesting similarities between Enoch and the Church. For starters, the name Enoch comes from a root which means to train or teach. To the church Jesus said, “Go and make disciples (students) of all men.” (Matt. 28:19) And according to Hebrew tradition, Enoch was born on the day that would become Pentecost. It’s the same day the Church was born. I believe Enoch was an early type of the Church and his disappearance before the flood gave the first hint of a pre-tribulation rapture.


    Genesis 19:23....Lot had to leave Sodom
    "But flee there quickly, because I can not do anything until you reach it".

    Now.....In Daniel 3, WHERE WAS DANIEL????

    King Nebuchadnezzar represents the anti-Christ who decrees that anyone who refuses to bow down and worship the statue he has made will be put to death in the fiery furnace, which represents Great Tribulation. Daniel’s three friends, representing Israel, refuse to worship the image and are thrown into the furnace to die. While in there they encounter the Lord, are preserved through the judgment, and are elevated to positions of honor in Babylon.But where was Daniel? He was a prominent figure both before and after chapter 3. But in this episode his name was not even mentioned. Did he worship the statue to escape judgment? If you think that, you don’t know Daniel. Did he refuse to bow down but was not accused? If you think that, you don’t know his enemies. After all they rounded up his three closest friends. For the purposes of this story it’s as if he has disappeared altogether. In chapter 3, Daniel was a model of the Church, who during the End times judgments will have disappeared altogether, while Israel will be preserved through them, meet the Lord in the midst of them, and be elevated to positions of honor in the Kingdom Age.

    Isaiah 26:1:19-21
    "But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
    Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.
    See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.
    Without a doubt this is the clearest statement of the Lord’s intentions for the Church anywhere in the Old Testament. It can’t be tied to any event in history, but clearly awaits a future fulfillment. And it can’t be intended for Israel, whose resurrection will come after the time of God’s wrath, not before it.


    1 Thes 4:16-17 & 5:9, Paul’s teaching on the rapture.
    But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. (The dead in Christ will rise first).
    (Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; (After that we who are alive and left will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air)

    John 14:2-3 here as well to see what rooms Isaiah was talking about.
    In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
    This promise does not point to the 2nd Coming when the Lord will come to Earth to be with Israel here, where they are. This is a promise to the Church that He has gone to His father’s house to prepare our rooms for us. Then He will come for us to take us there, where He is.

    See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. (For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.)

    I’m convinced this is the passage Paul had in mind when he said “According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.“ (1 Thes. 4:15).
    There are many more but I will let you digest those for awhile.
     
  13. What do you think about>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Zechariah 14:1-4

    King James Version (KJV)
    14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
     
  14. Many believe that the word "rapture" never appears in the New Testament, but it does. I Thess. 4:17, "Then we who are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...." The word that is translated "caught up" is the Greek term HARPAGASOMETHA where the English word "rapture" comes from. It means a quick snatching away and is used in Mt. 11:12; 13:19; Jn. 6:15; 10:12, 28-29; Acts 8:39; 23:10; 2 Cor. 12:2, 4; I Thess. 4:17; Jude 23; Rev. 12:5.
     
    covered_by_grace likes this.

  15. Hi Major - I know of the quotes you cite, and I am repasting them here simply so I can keep track of the conversation in my own mind and to focus on a small portion of what you have written.

    1 Thes 4:16-17 & 5:9, Paul’s teaching on the rapture.
    But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. (The dead in Christ will rise first).
    (Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; (After that we who are alive and left will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air)

    The bodies will rise? Which bodies. Even if a person believes in a spiritual body - it will not rise because it has not died. The word "rise" means to stand up.

    This may be a new thought to some.

    1 Thes 4:16-17 and 5:9 suggest that the body Paul is speaking of is not referring to the spiritual body after physical death because that body has no need to rise because it was never dead.

    Now this verse also suggests that we (people) dwell (or live) in the dust. Dust is of course what we are made from, and what we will return to as is seen when God formed man from Dust and breathed into Him.

    Isaiah 26:1:19-21
    "But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

    When you associate Isaiah 26:19 (your dead will live their bodies will rise) with 1 Thess 4:16 (The dead in Christ will rise first) you are proving my point - that the "sleepers" (of 1 Thess 4:13 ...) are simply "sleeping" in sin and need to be woke up.

    They can also be referred to as dead in sins and transgressions as the following pasted verse illustrates. You are I am sure familiar with the verse that says wake up oh sleeper and rise from the dead
    Ephesians 5:14. -

    Ephesians 5:14
    Wherefore he saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine upon thee.
    Isaiah 26:19 shows that the dead bodies rise. Jesus physical body did rise. A spiritual body has no need to rise because it was never dead.

    You link Isaiah 26:19 with 1 Thess 4:16. Here you are suggesting that the bodies that rise (which must be physical bodies since spiritual bodies have no need to rise) are the same bodies referred to in 1 Thess 4:16.

    This suggests that the so-called rapture portion of scripture is referring to the resurrection concept as it is referred to in Colossians 3:1. To take this thought a little farther then the "sleepers" have to be "asleep in the physical body".

    Now keep in mind that I am saying here is based on your linking Isaiah 26:19 with 1 Thess 4:16 (by the way I agree with this linking of the two verses). This referance to "sleep" is the of falling into (or back into) sin (which we refer to as backslidding). The following referances illustrate this concept.

    I use the phrase "back into sin" or backslidden because the people in 1 Thess 4 are referred to as "asleep in Christ", meaning that they were awake previously when they came to Christ and originally "woke up" but then fell asleep in sin.

    Romans 13:11
    And this, knowing the season, that already it is time for you to awake out of sleep: for now is salvation nearer to us than when we first believed.

    1 Corinthians 15:34
    Awake to soberness righteously, and sin not; for some have no knowledge of God: I speak this to move you to shame.
    Ephesians 5:14
    Wherefore he saith, Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine upon thee.

    In the above reference you are linking an old testament verse (Isaiah 26:19) with a new testament one (1 Thess 4:16) and this suggests that you consider that the resurrection referance from Isaiah is the same resurrection mentioned in the so-called rapture verses of 1 Thess 14:16.

    1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

    Paul said in the following verses - "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".

    This all makes sense in Pauls mind, but we have to put the scriptures (or individual Pauline letters) together to see what He understood about the "body".

    2 Corinthians 5:6
    Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord

    2 Corinthians 5:8
    we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

    This would seem to indicate that Paul was not speaking about any type of "body" after physical death. I say this because Paul said while we are at "home in the body". Meaning that He included Himself group of people that were presently at home and in their bodies. Because He included Himself in the group, and He was at the time this letter was written in His Physical body. He was at that time in His physical body on earth. This is the perspective He is writing from.

    Now Paul also stated that His students were already "resurrected or risen from the dead" in Colossians 3:1.

    Colossians 3:1 If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.

    So what does that mean? As you probably know Paul was referring to the resurrected life or being raised from the dead. Of course this resurrection is the spiritual resurrection from the condition of being dead in Sins and transgressions.

    Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    The "body" of sin (or the body that commits sin) will be destroyed as we stop sinning. We do not die physically as we stop sinning in fact we are being renewed every day.

    Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
    10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
    11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    The word "likewise" in Rm 6:11 suggests that Jesus physical death on earth and His physical resurrection on Earth are being compared to our resurrection in the "body".

    A Christians spiritual resurrection is (by the use of the word "likewise") being compared to the death and resurrection that Jesus experienced on Earth.

    As Paul said in Rm 6:6 while expressing the same thought He said that as we cease to sin our body of sin is destroyed.

    Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    If we are to walk as Jesus walked ( 1 Jn 2:6 ) then we too must experience a resurrection on earth and in the body we have at this time, as Paul alluded to in Colossians 3:1.

    1 John 2:6
    he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.

    Now placing this understanding in the following verses.

    1 Thes 4:16-17 & 5:9, Paul’s teaching on the rapture.
    But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. (The dead in Christ will rise first).
    (Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; (After that we who are alive and left will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air)

    It becomes apparent that Paul is referring to an earthly resurrection. As an aside notice that the verses suggest that we will meet Jesus in the air. We will have no need of air when we are absent from the physical body.

    Now to go a little farther (I know this will challange you to think outside the tradition doctrinal box) - we are putting on Christ in this life.

    Romans 13:14
    But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
    Galatians 3:27
    For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.

    We are being clothed with Christ as the verse pasted above suggest. If we while in this body (corruptible) put on Christ (incorruption) or stop sinning then the corruptible has been clothed with the incorruptible. It is not a small fact that we are told to do this while we are in this physical body. We are told to put on Christ (incorruption) while we are at Home in the physical body.

    1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


    I know what this suggests in your mind. That I am challanging the concept which states that 1 Cor 15 is addressing the concept of a spiritual bodyafter physical death, and that is correct - I am challanging this concept, and refuting it.

    Paul is challanging this traditional understanding as well - by saying that the corruptible must put on incorruption.

    Sorry this is so long - I try to be concise for the most part.

    Respectfully - Brian
     
  16. Second coming?

    Hmm...my second coming will be when God comes for me and snatches me out of this world and into His glorious light.

    Nuff said.

    :) :) :)
     
    covered_by_grace likes this.
  17. Everything in scripture can be understood and misunderstood in just about any way the individual reader wishes....and always has been personally "interpreted", this is why there have always been many different opinions/interpretations (this is what "interpretation" is.....PERSONAL...The Lord did send a "strong delusion"), but for me,....my "PERSONAL" is FOR THE LORD, He has "enraptured" my heart.

    "Text" does not compel me to do anything towards The Lord nor does it determine my worship/devotion. Scripture is not in my heart, mind, or soul, JESUS IS.

    Scripture did not hang on the cross, JESUS hung on the cross alone and suffered the crown of thorns, nails, and spear. Scripture did not help Jesus carry His cross. Scripture did not bleed nor does it redeem me.......ALL spiritual authority was given to the one who hung on the cross.

    John 19:11
    "And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".

    Believers have been taught to disregard the words spoken by Jesus and that their intellectual rationalizations are BETTER than the actual words that were spoken......the "bible" is TAUGHT as though it is "THE" final "authority", but IT IS NOT AN "AUTHORITY" at all (it is only a REFERENCE BOOK).

    Did not Jesus come into YOUR heart and mind?. Why do YOU choose not to supercede scripture?....do you believe that you must let scripture dictate to you? (as a SON OF GOD, scripture CANNOT dictate to you nor compel you to do anything....no matter how you wish to "interpret").

    "I say, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you". (Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34)...........DENY these words if you wish, it is your free choice to do so.

    All verse is from the RSV.
     
  18. Scripture should interpret Scripture. And just so we're clear, Jesus IS The Word. (see John 1:1) The Word says the Holy Spirit will not testify against Himself. Seeking to interpret Scripture by other means will lead down a long rabbit trail of confusion. His way is simple, we are the ones who want to make it so complicated.
     
  19. I agree. Jesus IS the Word; therefore the Word hung on that cross and died for our sins.
     
  20. Brian...........

    Anyone can play word games and make Scripture say what they want it to say, which is what you are doing my brother.

    I gave you some examples of the the Rapture as seen in the Old Test because God does not just throw things on us but He works in "portions", giving us a little to absorb before moving on.

    This is exactly why the discussion on the Rapture leads to these kind of exchanges.

    If you do not accept the Biblical teaching of the Rapture.....fine with me, but I am not going to try and convince you or anyone else of this coming event.

    I accepted it when I read about it years ago, and nothing can be said to change that understanding and I am sure you fell the same way about your opinion.

    I would just ask you to be very confident in your belief as the Bible says.........

    Titus 2:13
    King James Version (KJV)
    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ".

    John 3:17: .....
    "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved"

    Propitiation means God’s wrath has been appeased for all who have trusted in Jesus Christ. The good news of the gospel is that those who have placed their trust in the Lord Jesus as the “Lamb of God” are no longer under the sentence of divine wrath:
    Ephesians 2:1-8..........
    "you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".
    When one realizes that the wrath of God to come upon the unbelievers to turn His people the Jews to Christ it is imperitive that we grasp the Biblical fact in ........

    1 Thess. 5:9
    " For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ ".

    The Tribulation which is to come for Israel will be the wrath of God.
    SO THEN......Will the church/believers go through the wrath of God"

    NO! The New Testament Church, the Body of Christ, will NOT go through the Tribulation period. By "Tribulation" I am referring to the Biblically prophesied 7-year time period (referred to in the Bible as "the time of Jacob's trouble") which is the WRATH of God!

    This 7-year period precedes the Millennial reign of Christ. It is during this 7-year period that the Antichrist (the Beast) will rule the world, leading up to the Battle of Armageddon at the end. The Antichrist will be a 100% Satan possessed individual.

    Brian..................
    The Church will be removed from the earth BEFORE the appearing of the Antichrist (2nd Thessalonians 2:7,8). There isn't one verse in the entire Bible which indicates that the Church will go through the Tribulation period. Rather, the Apostle Paul stated in 1st Thessalonians 4:16-18...
    "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
     

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