No, his reply to me, #113...
What is the real value of scripture?
- Thread starter nws2dc
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Hey Glomung (waving). Sorry but I have read the whole thread a couple of times - no one is saying they have a relationship with the Bible or that you don't need the HS to decode the meaning. Please those who are reading different - please post.
All of his posts, seems to me, have been unclear. I even posted to ask whether he thought we agreed on certain points and he replied we did agree but indicated a last point (I never made) where we disagreed (only I didn't).
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LOL Ok
OKI'll take your word for it. For some reason, I've read his comment several times, but I can't follow... maybe it's me...
No it not you! I have the same problem.
This thread has become a CBzone bashing......Abdicate I went back and read #113 I understood it, I even agree with it. If you would like I will attempt to explain it to all of you. I think it is said when people look to the world to teach them the things of God. Could you imagine what would have happened to Charles Spurgeon if he had gone to a colledge to learn how to preach or teach him what his relationship with God was or supposed to be? Do you know that God does not need you or anybody for that matter? We were created for Him, He desired for us to be His people. This is the greatest love story ever told. His love and His mercy is the only reason we exist today. Can you imagine getting what you deserve? I left the last site I was on because of bickering and people fighting to be right.
peter
peter
I toss and turn and try to sleep
the Lord of host calls his sheep
babies cry and mothers weep
He calls to take them home
He spreads His arms, all so wide
His strength to draw them near
violently clutching to a world
that only brought them tears
so many of His children wandered
so far from His embrace
so many that were misled
will never see His face.
Now that time has come
He takes what belongs to Him
to full fill His righteousness
washing away their sins,
washing away their sins.
the Lord of host calls his sheep
babies cry and mothers weep
He calls to take them home
He spreads His arms, all so wide
His strength to draw them near
violently clutching to a world
that only brought them tears
so many of His children wandered
so far from His embrace
so many that were misled
will never see His face.
Now that time has come
He takes what belongs to Him
to full fill His righteousness
washing away their sins,
washing away their sins.
This thread has become a CBzone bashing......Abdicate I went back and read #113 I understood it, I even agree with it. If you would like I will attempt to explain it to all of you. I think it is said when people look to the world to teach them the things of God. Could you imagine what would have happened to Charles Spurgeon if he had gone to a colledge to learn how to preach or teach him what his relationship with God was or supposed to be? Do you know that God does not need you or anybody for that matter? We were created for Him, He desired for us to be His people. This is the greatest love story ever told. His love and His mercy is the only reason we exist today. Can you imagine getting what you deserve? I left the last site I was on because of bickering and people fighting to be right.
peter
peter
I toss and turn and try to sleep
the Lord of host calls his sheep
babies cry and mothers weep
He calls to take them home
He spreads His arms, all so wide
His strength to draw them near
violently clutching to a world
that only brought them tears
so many of His children wandered
so far from His embrace
so many that were misled
will never see His face.
Now that time has come
He takes what belongs to Him
to full fill His righteousness
washing away their sins,
washing away their sins.
the Lord of host calls his sheep
babies cry and mothers weep
He calls to take them home
He spreads His arms, all so wide
His strength to draw them near
violently clutching to a world
that only brought them tears
so many of His children wandered
so far from His embrace
so many that were misled
will never see His face.
Now that time has come
He takes what belongs to Him
to full fill His righteousness
washing away their sins,
washing away their sins.
I'm sorry you see this as a @GBzone bashing, @Ph8th. That was never my intent or anyone else's IMO. If asking someone to clarify what they are posting is bashing and if more than one asks - well, please be my guest, and explain what your interpetation of his posts are. And not just #113 - because his response changes from post to post. I await your response.
Apologies to one and all if they think my intention was to pick on another Christian. When I type that I don't understand - that what you post is not clear to me - it's because I want to understand what you are saying. I am as capable as misreading and misunderstanding as anyone, maybe more so. My desire is to understand - not disagree. When I read that all disciples were uneducated, particularly Paul - I do disagree. Jesus could read and write and was well versed in scripture. So was Paul, as was James the Righteous. Christ ministry and teaching went 3 years plus the 40 days after the resurrection. All Jewish boys were taught the Torah. If you can say Christ is your teacher, I wouldn't say you are uneducated at all. He gives eternal life diplomas. We all grow in Christ. We are called to witness where our heart resides, men & women, from the lowliest pew warmer to the pastors and preachers. We all have roles to play. It is level ground at the foot of the cross.
At what point did you not understand?
I object in the strongest terms the idea that you can only understand scripture when you learn Greek and Hebrew.
From a scriptural point of view .A intellectual point of view and a spiritual point of view .
I gave only one point as another post was going to raise the other . But as we have parted company on the first point it would seem a waste of time going to the second .
Your suggestion was that no matter how corrupted or inaccurate the translation;people can still come to know Jesus and be 'saved' .
Well what Jesus are you talking about?
You also said that ANY translation was purely from the translators point of view . This contradicts all scripture and while I make no claim to perfection my arguments are not so bad that they cannot be followed .
I suggest its your own thinking of scripture that hinders you . For a biblical argument is the way to prove a doctrine .
Jesus did indeed was born a Jew lived and died a Jew .
Who denied it? I did not.
I asked simply what language did God speak when he said "Let there be light?"
and that Hebrew and Greek are mans languages Not Gods .
and if there is no Greek and Jew IN Christ . What language will they all speak when they sit around the marriage supper fo the lamb?
For there will not only be Greek and Jew but people form every nation and tribe on earth.
So I will not change then my approach both to the scriptures "Inspired by God" ( not from a mans point of view .) and or my use of biblical argument .
I have no problem with a person disagreeing with me or having objections to what I said .
Then I will seek to clarify what I said or answer the objection .
But as you simply denied it all and seemed to understands nothing.How can I answer?
For you replied to none or objected to what ? Or to put it another way .When you started to read it .At what point did you stop ?
In Christ
gerald
Not so much in my defence but as a way of understanding my approach to any objection.
If someone objects and is specific . I will always endeavour to answer that objection with another argument that answers that objection.
If then I add other scriptures or put it with a different argument in answer to that objection where is the problem.
How can two walk together unless they agree? says the scripture.
I would suppose that most people have had at least one serious conversation with someone or their father over a matter that is important to them both and as you walk along together . You do not look at each other or indeed much of your surroundings but look at just the path your on . Listening and responding as you go.
But if at some point you have not understood or have misunderstood the other or disagree with them; you stop and look at each other to clarify, or resolve the misunderstanding or disagreement . if it is resolved you both go on and the communication in the matter in hand continues .But if it si not then either you have to change the conversation or what usually happens is you part company. In some cases never to see each other again .
I object then to an objection that does not mention at what point they did not agree, misunderstood or did not understand .Either from their own perspective or a lack of understanding . For as things stand I would not accept that what I have said even from the beginning is so obscure or written in such a way that it cannot be understood or followed .
If then I am quite deluded and very wrong . It is the duty of those who object to say in some measure and specific where and how \I am wrong .
With an argument and not simply a denial or assertion.
As I am writing in English who needs an interpreter?
in Christ
gerald
You start with the BIBLE not just "a book" which alone is indicative and enlightening of some who claim an ancient Christianity .
and what Jesus are we talking about if it is not the on e revealed in Scripture ?
For did not the Lord Himself "starting at Moses ............" began to show through out all the scriptures those things pertaining to Himself to the two on the road to Emaus ?
If you do not have the Bible as the foundation of your thinking then you make up your own 'Jesus ' as Islam does and others who love to make graven images of him /Which are sensual ,doe eyed, weak kneed pathetic mother fixated travesties of the truth .
All you need can be found in THE book. Not everything can be found in A book.
For" ALL scripture is inspired by God and is good for correction ,reproof and instruction in righteousness.........." and much more besides .
"By wisdom man knew not God" How then do you propose you find God and have that relationship you speak of? with out the BIble ?
You speak of "a relationship with the Bible "
well I would suggest we hold it in that regard that God holds it and as to what Jesus said of it "The Word is truth "
If we do not we will go deep into error .
As the foundation for faith in God and sound doctrine . The Reformation and the reformers declared it "Scripture alone "
For LIVING the life of scripture then it is by the Spirit .
The Word alone and you dry up.
The Spirit alone and you blow up .
But with the WORD and the Spirit and you GROW UP.
In Christ
gerald
OK
I would suggest that my first line in my argument was so contrary to what you said in the first line of your post that you stopped listening from then on.
in Christ
gerald
The scriptures are important and part and parcel of our "spiritual armor" - it is classified as a sword. The Adversary has memorized scripture back to front but cannot understand it. You need the HS to decode it. The Jews have, since Moses, had both an oral and written tradition to keep the inherent truth apart from corruption. Christ used this knowledge to turn the temptations away in the wilderness. He used this knowledge to turn away the arguments of the Pharisees. What I loved about Great Fiction's video is that Christians were given even more for the New Testament and I didn't know that before. With a wealth of manuscripts (if stacked, over a MILE high), 99% of the variations of all NT manuscripts are variations that are like spelling a word differently and make no never mind to the truths held within. The less than 1% are variations that has some possible non transferable bleeps (like the 666 example) that has no revelance to the major doctrines of the church. Ancient manuscripts that all predate the printing press. I do not worship the book, I worship it's Author. And I trust what is said there. It is there to defend and protect and comfort us as we make our way back to God. I have seen videos on newer translations - more modern that do change and twist major doctrines. I will stick with the KJV. (I will explore the ONM). With scripture and the HS, I can look on things of the world and filter truth from the not true.
I'm sorry you're so confused as I am with you. You've not read anything I've said with clarity. I never said you must read Greek and Hebrew to understand, it just makes it easier. You don't need pieces of typed paper bound in a dead animal or plastic to find God. YOU said God was not a Jew, now you say He is, so which is it? The word of God is the word of God and it's written on our hearts and if we're fortunate we can read it with our eyes as well, whatever the translation. A willing heart seeking the truth shall find the Truth. Just mean what you say and say what you mean.
Glomung
Account Closed
You misunderstand my point, and everything else from what I've seen.
You need to know Jesus, the live, very much present living God. The Bible, a book written about Him, is helpful,
but is useless if you do not know Him.
Many pretend to know Him, but just make a pretentious noise.
You need to know Jesus, the live, very much present living God. The Bible, a book written about Him, is helpful,
but is useless if you do not know Him.
Many pretend to know Him, but just make a pretentious noise.
I'm a little uncertain of what you are saying here Gerald. OK, so I'm zeroing in on something you say Abdicate said, but it does strike a chord with my own thoughts so....
I believe that the original Autographs were the inerrant word of God. But now since the originals are lost, we must rely on copies and make every effort to settle on the best available. However, while ever we can find translations/versions that contradict each other we must conclude that the person/s doing the translation have injected their own point of view, To cite just one example Niv Jeremiah 2:20 "Long ago you broke off your yoke and tore off your bonds; you said, 'I will not serve you!' Indeed, on every high hill and under every spreading tree you lay down as a prostitute. Compare Kjv
Jer 2:20 For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.
Bible study time! Who broke off whose yolk here? The Lord God or the Israelites? Can't have both ways, so..............
There are many many more examples of inconsistencies that can only be sorted out by recourse to context, but even so, the question must be asked how could these discrepancies exist if they are indeed the word of God...something is not right, I'll go withe the Kjv and children translations any day over a error riddled paraphrase such as the Niv.
Gerald, Strictly speaking no one can answer which language God spoke literally in the beginning.
However, if we assume as we are led to do, that God revealed the creation account to Moses, then the answer to your question would likely be...whatever Moses spoke.
Though why you or anyone would ask such a question is somewhat mystifying.
GBzone I respect your persistence even if we disagree my brother.
Please let my analogy be received in love.
Once a policeman was informed of a crime and there were about nine who witnessed the crime directly; the policeman then sought the testimony of the nine. However the nine were not in reach, for they all moved off afar; yet to the policeman’s good fortune there were about 5000 people who heard the nine give a detailed account of what happened. The policeman then rationalized with other investigators in variance to what actually happened. They took the 5000 accounts of what happened and cross examined them all with tedious detail. When the accounts were all investigated they agreed with solid conclusion that many things were certain because of the accounts by 4,900 would confirm that many of the same exact things occurred with accuracy. Thus then they documented an official report of what they were sure was "accurate?" Then also the report was translated with as much accuracy as possible so that all countries with accuracy would know what happened.
From the Councils of Nicea, to Henry IIIV's Great Bible (Tindale in english), the Bishops Bible which served as the precursor to the King James, and the King James itself, all serve as the tangible historic forerunners of many modern English translations today. All seeking from thousands of ancient accounts to be as accurate as possible.
Many of these translations compete word for word, and in my own personal preference will read them all when I want to get to the bottom of things. I respect most modern translations for their contributions but am personally still quite fond of the King James most often, yet I am in my own convictions wary that every single word in the King James or any other translation is the exact word that the "nine" actually wrote. Yet I know with certainty that Biblical truth is more secured by historical accounts than any other written work in history by immeasurable margins.
My earlier assertion was this my friend, that when there are 5000 accounts of what was written of Christ, the vast number of conclusive accounts in common confirm with security the "truth" that is in the Bible. Yet I am not saying that every account from every manuscript in history is true; for many were rejected. Were there manuscripts that fell to falsity according to the church in variance? Of course, yet I contend that the Church has hawked falsifications for 1800 years, and that the culmination of historic accounts secure the immaculate life of Christ Jesus and His sacrifice that has and will continue to transform this earth.
May Christ saturate you with undiminished blessings GBzone, and know that my numbers regarding manuscripts are not exact numbers; for there are actually many more.
While I understand your reasoning .
There is a major flaw in it . and many assumptions .
That great flaw has no mention of God or the Holy Spirit in your argument and you analogy does not take into account that ALL scripture is inspired by God and while yes the four Gospels see things from four different angles . The Son of Man , The Son of God, The Kingdom of God and the Word of God .
Yet each Apostle was inspired what to wright according to" the mind of God" by the one who did and does know it.
It is beyond dispute and I am fully persuaded of it both by scriptures record and by the arguments of academics that there are corrupted texts .That is to say texts that have additions and omission s as well as other dubious renditions . and texts that have none .
To suggest that you mix them up is like saying you must have light and darkness to see the truth .Or truth and lies to know the truth .
As God separated the light form the darkness even in the beginning .It behoves men also to do the same . For God will also separate the children of light from the children of darkness at the end as well. Lest we find ourselves in the wrong camp.
Thus man needs the same Holy Spirit and in the same measure to understand what si written let alone to translate it as he was needed to write what was written .
If he does not he will go into error judging and subjecting all things (including the scriptures)by his own mind and intellect rather than by the Spirit of truth .
So while there was only four original eye witness accounts of the Life of Christ and one other "out of time" who was Paul who spoke of things the others did not . and while there have been many translators . Not all were are of God and even as there were already "false Apostles " in Johns time there have also been false texts and false translators even up to this present day .
I do not accept then your argument .Not out of contention for contentions sake but in love and for the truths sake .
Am I telling you what to do or not to do ? No I am not. Am I insisting that you use only the KJV for instance? No not really.
But in a negative argument its quite strange how so many people insist I don't use it or discard it as almost useless and unreliable and many a preacher has by implication and direct teaching has preached it so .
Yet in over 30 years and more I have never found it wanting (I don't use another) and as a sword it undercuts the accusations and objections of Islam who then say which Bible? Who boast in their one book. that's just in passing.
Yet strangely also all modern versions boast in their "better understanding" Yet those with so little or less understanding at the reformation were able to turn the world upside down and truly separated light from darkness .
Yet do you not find it strange that we with our "better understanding " not only do far less but I also see we are in a reverse reformation and those things once rejected and with good reason are now being accepted and the world is in the church and the church is in the world.
Something very wrong somewhere .
Both with the churches perceptions and reasoning.
in Christ
gerald
That is a false a logic as the one that says "Jesus is God .Mary is the mother of Jesus and therefore Mary is the mother of God"
You cannot know the God of the Bible without knowing the Bible .
You can know ABOUT God by creation and therefore cannot deny the existence of God.
But only the Son knoweth the Father and only the Father knoweth the Son"
Howe can you know Jesus unless you reads the scriptures "that speak of Him"?
Otherwise you are making it up .
and what man if in contention with another man does not recourse to that which was first written?
Does not the Rcc assert their authority and power by their understanding of what is written in the Bible?
How then do you say the Bible is just "helpful ? When the whole inverted pyramid of the Rcc is built upon one verse of scripture?
People who just "boast in the scriptures........." or the "original texts " or the Hebrew and the Greek . Can indeed "know not Him of whom the scriptures speak of " But that does not mean all do not . As not all who ministered in the temple did not .
You will have to clarify far more what you say, for me to understand what you have said I do not understand . For even as you speak the truth in your last words . You do not speak it so plainly if at all in all your words you have said before in this post and others.
in Christ
gerald