What is the real value of scripture?

Ph8th said:
Calvin at no time did I condemn higher learning........ where the issues arrive with higher learning is when man is teaching their truth and not Holy Spirit. The woman you referenced earlier disclaims spirituality completely and the man bishop whatever denys the resurrection. Was that taught by Holy Spirit?

peter
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Peter, at no time have I said you do/did. At no time have I even replied to you until you replied to a post of mine, and that was a post with another in mind. But please don't take my comments as being personally accusative of yourself.
 
GBzone said:
The high priest and all those of like mind had the' original text' more than any man alive to day could have and Hebrew was his mother tounge .
Saul of Tarsus likewise and more . Yet they understood not the scriptures.
Indeed Jesus said "ye boast in the scriptures .........." Even as some boast in their understanding of Greek and Hebrew and the 'original text' But ye know not him of whom the scriptures speak"
You have missed the point of what I was saying . It was not that you should not or cannot or it is unprofitable to learn Greek and Hebrew if you can .
But that does NOT qualify you . As proven with the above .

I am saying that there is a trend in the church today to think that you need the paper on the wall to be qualified or that you MUJST have those things to be qualified.
It was in the main ignorant and unlearned men that Jesus chose to be His disciples , Luke was a Dr and Mathew a tax collector . 2 out of 12 .
Saul of Tarsus I would argue had to take three years out in the Arabian desert to sort his head out with God and get all his biblical KNOWLEDGE but up to the road to Damascus no understanding in their right orders and to see things from Him who inspired all scripture s perspective .
For are not the scriptures purpose to see things from Gods perspective? and to do things that are good and right in Gods eyes?
If men by their wisdom knew not God .
and if the cross is a stumbling block to the Jew and foolishness to the Greek . What makes you think that those things ALONE either Greek or Hebrew will by themselves enlighten you?
For it did not the Greek or the Jew.
We do not ONLY have the scriptures to test for the truth.
When was Jesus tested? or proved?
When we was filled with the Word of God alone? or when he was filled with the Holy Spirit also?
Was it not the Holy Spirit that "led " and "drove" Him into the wilderness?
True it is the devil always uses scripture to the believer . But always with either something added "thou shalt NOT surely die" or in the case of the temptation in the wilderness omitting parts of scripture or out of context .
But Jesus not only knew the Word of God he was also filled with the Spirit of God who knows where all scripture goes and in what context and what was and is meant by it according to the "mind of God" Thus by and with and through Him ,the Lord was able to with the shield of faith quench the fiery dart and parry the lies with the "sword of the SPIRIT which is the Word of God " That is the LIVING word of God not the dead letter of it.
He Jesus promised would come and "ABIDE WITH YOU FOREVER " He has not come to come and go but to abide with you forever .
He who is the Spirit of truth who will and does and ONLY bears witness tor speaks of that which is of Me said the Lord.
Thus we can by Him "know the spirit of error" by the spirit of truth .
A bank teller is trained to recognise a forgery not by being shown all the different forgeries . But by being given the real thing and getting to know it . It is by the true then they know what is false .
So then it is by the Spirit of truth we may know truth from error 2and with practice know good from evil"
For even as that self same Spirit bore witness with our spirit that we are now the children of God . So also does he bare witness with our spirit all things that are of and from God of Jesus Christ the truth .and if it is not he will tell us so and we may not know straight away WHY something is wrong .But we should honour Him who says it is and if we trust and wait upon the Lord He will show us why sooner or later as well.
The reason why so many are going off the rails and beign led into by pass meadows and listening to puffed up self proclaimed prophets and apostles is they are NOT being led by the Spirit fo God .
For any preacher teacher pastor evangelist and indeed Apostle and prophet of God who is of God and comes form God and speaks not his own words nor seeketh his own glory but "seeketh the glory of Him that sent him." and is therefore filled led and anointed by the Holy Spirit .is the same Holy Spirit that fills the believer and abides in them. or should or can .
Thus he that was LED by Him to understand the scriptures as they should be understood . Will then LEAD
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No one questions that you should read scripture with the Holy Spirit but you seem to be stating uneducated is better some how. Jesus could read and write, He was in His Father's house studying at age 12. Jesus USED scripture to turn aside the devil at the temptation in the wilderness. Studying scripture is self education. Whether you do it at home or in a seminary with like minded Christians. I wouldn't go to the Benny Hinn Seminary (did he even go?) but places like John MacArthur's seminary seem to me you would learn about God, according to scripture. Can non seminarian's preach? They already do and some have million's of ears. Just tune to TBN if you want error.
 
GBzone said:
The high priest and all those of like mind had the' original text' more than any man alive to day could have and Hebrew was his mother tounge .
Saul of Tarsus likewise and more . Yet they understood not the scriptures.
Indeed Jesus said "ye boast in the scriptures .........." Even as some boast in their understanding of Greek and Hebrew and the 'original text' But ye know not him of whom the scriptures speak"
You have missed the point of what I was saying . It was not that you should not or cannot or it is unprofitable to learn Greek and Hebrew if you can .
But that does NOT qualify you . As proven with the above .

I am saying that there is a trend in the church today to think that you need the paper on the wall to be qualified or that you MUJST have those things to be qualified.
It was in the main ignorant and unlearned men that Jesus chose to be His disciples , Luke was a Dr and Mathew a tax collector . 2 out of 12 .
Saul of Tarsus I would argue had to take three years out in the Arabian desert to sort his head out with God and get all his biblical KNOWLEDGE but up to the road to Damascus no understanding in their right orders and to see things from Him who inspired all scripture s perspective .
For are not the scriptures purpose to see things from Gods perspective? and to do things that are good and right in Gods eyes?
If men by their wisdom knew not God .
and if the cross is a stumbling block to the Jew and foolishness to the Greek . What makes you think that those things ALONE either Greek or Hebrew will by themselves enlighten you?
For it did not the Greek or the Jew.
We do not ONLY have the scriptures to test for the truth.
When was Jesus tested? or proved?
When we was filled with the Word of God alone? or when he was filled with the Holy Spirit also?
Was it not the Holy Spirit that "led " and "drove" Him into the wilderness?
True it is the devil always uses scripture to the believer . But always with either something added "thou shalt NOT surely die" or in the case of the temptation in the wilderness omitting parts of scripture or out of context .
But Jesus not only knew the Word of God he was also filled with the Spirit of God who knows where all scripture goes and in what context and what was and is meant by it according to the "mind of God" Thus by and with and through Him ,the Lord was able to with the shield of faith quench the fiery dart and parry the lies with the "sword of the SPIRIT which is the Word of God " That is the LIVING word of God not the dead letter of it.
He Jesus promised would come and "ABIDE WITH YOU FOREVER " He has not come to come and go but to abide with you forever .
He who is the Spirit of truth who will and does and ONLY bears witness tor speaks of that which is of Me said the Lord.
Thus we can by Him "know the spirit of error" by the spirit of truth .
A bank teller is trained to recognise a forgery not by being shown all the different forgeries . But by being given the real thing and getting to know it . It is by the true then they know what is false .
So then it is by the Spirit of truth we may know truth from error 2and with practice know good from evil"
For even as that self same Spirit bore witness with our spirit that we are now the children of God . So also does he bare witness with our spirit all things that are of and from God of Jesus Christ the truth .and if it is not he will tell us so and we may not know straight away WHY something is wrong .But we should honour Him who says it is and if we trust and wait upon the Lord He will show us why sooner or later as well.
The reason why so many are going off the rails and beign led into by pass meadows and listening to puffed up self proclaimed prophets and apostles is they are NOT being led by the Spirit fo God .
For any preacher teacher pastor evangelist and indeed Apostle and prophet of God who is of God and comes form God and speaks not his own words nor seeketh his own glory but "seeketh the glory of Him that sent him." and is therefore filled led and anointed by the Holy Spirit .is the same Holy Spirit that fills the believer and abides in them. or should or can .
Thus he that was LED by Him to understand the scriptures as they should be understood . Will then LEAD the flock in the way he also was led .
If you read the letters of Paul ;expecially those to the Romans and Hebrews (Jew and the gentile) that si what he is doing . So that you and I and any who followed him would arrive at the same conclusions as he has .Or in other words come to the knowledge of the truth or arrive at the truth. "Till we all come to a unity of the faith " or "think the same things" or" have the same mind " What mind? His? No.
"Let this mind be in you as it was in Christ " let every thought be in subjection to the mind of Christ " and so on.

"ye young men the word of God dwelleth in you richly and ye have overcome the wicked one"
"Ye fathers ye know Him who was from the beginning"
By faith we KNOW ........." How the world was created .
Who is it who is from the beginning? If not the Creator of all things.
How on earth can you know Him who is from the beginning .If you do not believe what is written about the beginning who wrote or inspired it to be written and who was there "in the beginning"?
I don't know all that it means to know Him who is form the beginning .
But this I do know .
That in any measure that you do in very truth know Him who is from the beginning .Will make you unmovable .For your roots of your mind and your life go that deep that no "winds of doctrine that's weep through the church will move you and no enticing words of mans wisdom or baubles of this world will entice you .For you have something of far more worth than all the world put together .
I can well understand Paul in this matter or a little ; how he counted "all things as dung " in the light of the knowledge of Him.That many today still count as something .

The church does not know God.

It has heard of Him . and believes . But the vast majority of believers have never seen Him . Or had but the briefest of contact with God . and thinks that is enough .

When I say the church does not know God . I say many may well know Him as "little children"
Very few as young men and even fewer as "ye fathers "

What indeed is a father? ( I am not talking about Popes etc)

Some one has said or spoken about people with 'agendas'
I have an agenda . So does every one else on this site .
So indeed has God .
So for that matter has the devil.
The question is whether a mans agendas is Gods agenda . or not.

in Christ
gerald
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WHAT are you trying to say???????
 
GBzone said:
The high priest and all those of like mind had the' original text' more than any man alive to day could have and Hebrew was his mother tounge .
Saul of Tarsus likewise and more . Yet they understood not the scriptures.
Indeed Jesus said "ye boast in the scriptures .........." Even as some boast in their understanding of Greek and Hebrew and the 'original text' But ye know not him of whom the scriptures speak"
You have missed the point of what I was saying . It was not that you should not or cannot or it is unprofitable to learn Greek and Hebrew if you can .
But that does NOT qualify you . As proven with the above .

I am saying that there is a trend in the church today to think that you need the paper on the wall to be qualified or that you MUJST have those things to be qualified.
It was in the main ignorant and unlearned men that Jesus chose to be His disciples , Luke was a Dr and Mathew a tax collector . 2 out of 12 .
Saul of Tarsus I would argue had to take three years out in the Arabian desert to sort his head out with God and get all his biblical KNOWLEDGE but up to the road to Damascus no understanding in their right orders and to see things from Him who inspired all scripture s perspective .
For are not the scriptures purpose to see things from Gods perspective? and to do things that are good and right in Gods eyes?
If men by their wisdom knew not God .
and if the cross is a stumbling block to the Jew and foolishness to the Greek . What makes you think that those things ALONE either Greek or Hebrew will by themselves enlighten you?
For it did not the Greek or the Jew.
We do not ONLY have the scriptures to test for the truth.
When was Jesus tested? or proved?
When we was filled with the Word of God alone? or when he was filled with the Holy Spirit also?
Was it not the Holy Spirit that "led " and "drove" Him into the wilderness?
True it is the devil always uses scripture to the believer . But always with either something added "thou shalt NOT surely die" or in the case of the temptation in the wilderness omitting parts of scripture or out of context .
But Jesus not only knew the Word of God he was also filled with the Spirit of God who knows where all scripture goes and in what context and what was and is meant by it according to the "mind of God" Thus by and with and through Him ,the Lord was able to with the shield of faith quench the fiery dart and parry the lies with the "sword of the SPIRIT which is the Word of God " That is the LIVING word of God not the dead letter of it.
He Jesus promised would come and "ABIDE WITH YOU FOREVER " He has not come to come and go but to abide with you forever .
He who is the Spirit of truth who will and does and ONLY bears witness tor speaks of that which is of Me said the Lord.
Thus we can by Him "know the spirit of error" by the spirit of truth .
A bank teller is trained to recognise a forgery not by being shown all the different forgeries . But by being given the real thing and getting to know it . It is by the true then they know what is false .
So then it is by the Spirit of truth we may know truth from error 2and with practice know good from evil"
For even as that self same Spirit bore witness with our spirit that we are now the children of God . So also does he bare witness with our spirit all things that are of and from God of Jesus Christ the truth .and if it is not he will tell us so and we may not know straight away WHY something is wrong .But we should honour Him who says it is and if we trust and wait upon the Lord He will show us why sooner or later as well.
The reason why so many are going off the rails and beign led into by pass meadows and listening to puffed up self proclaimed prophets and apostles is they are NOT being led by the Spirit fo God .
For any preacher teacher pastor evangelist and indeed Apostle and prophet of God who is of God and comes form God and speaks not his own words nor seeketh his own glory but "seeketh the glory of Him that sent him." and is therefore filled led and anointed by the Holy Spirit .is the same Holy Spirit that fills the believer and abides in them. or should or can .
Thus he that was LED by Him to understand the scriptures as they should be understood . Will then LEAD the flock in the way he also was led .
If you read the letters of Paul ;expecially those to the Romans and Hebrews (Jew and the gentile) that si what he is doing . So that you and I and any who followed him would arrive at the same conclusions as he has .Or in other words come to the knowledge of the truth or arrive at the truth. "Till we all come to a unity of the faith " or "think the same things" or" have the same mind " What mind? His? No.
"Let this mind be in you as it was in Christ " let every thought be in subjection to the mind of Christ " and so on.

"ye young men the word of God dwelleth in you richly and ye have overcome the wicked one"
"Ye fathers ye know Him who was from the beginning"
By faith we KNOW ........." How the world was created .
Who is it who is from the beginning? If not the Creator of all things.
How on earth can you know Him who is from the beginning .If you do not believe what is written about the beginning who wrote or inspired it to be written and who was there "in the beginning"?
I don't know all that it means to know Him who is form the beginning .
But this I do know .
That in any measure that you do in very truth know Him who is from the beginning .Will make you unmovable .For your roots of your mind and your life go that deep that no "winds of doctrine that's weep through the church will move you and no enticing words of mans wisdom or baubles of this world will entice you .For you have something of far more worth than all the world put together .
I can well understand Paul in this matter or a little ; how he counted "all things as dung " in the light of the knowledge of Him.That many today still count as something .

The church does not know God.

It has heard of Him . and believes . But the vast majority of believers have never seen Him . Or had but the briefest of contact with God . and thinks that is enough .

When I say the church does not know God . I say many may well know Him as "little children"
Very few as young men and even fewer as "ye fathers "

What indeed is a father? ( I am not talking about Popes etc)

Some one has said or spoken about people with 'agendas'
I have an agenda . So does every one else on this site .
So indeed has God .
So for that matter has the devil.
The question is whether a mans agendas is Gods agenda . or not.

in Christ
gerald
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You produce a lot of words but for the life of me I can not figure out what it is that you are trying to communicate.

Can you cut down on the words and increase the meaning so we can grasp what it is that you are trying to say?????
 
Silk said:
No one questions that you should read scripture with the Holy Spirit but you seem to be stating uneducated is better some how. Jesus could read and write, He was in His Father's house studying at age 12. Jesus USED scripture to turn aside the devil at the temptation in the wilderness. Studying scripture is self education. Whether you do it at home or in a seminary with like minded Christians. I wouldn't go to the Benny Hinn Seminary (did he even go?) but places like John MacArthur's seminary seem to me you would learn about God, according to scripture. Can non seminarian's preach? They already do and some have million's of ears. Just tune to TBN if you want error.
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Well said once again my dear sister!
 
Abdicate said:
I'll never darken the doors of an established theological school.

1 John 2:26-29 (KJV)
These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
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I hate to hear that my brother. I have attentended a couple and have found them to be very helpful and informative. We do not just wake up one day knowing everything because we are born again!.
 
Major said:
I hate to hear that my brother. I have attentended a couple and have found them to be very helpful and informative. We do not just wake up one day knowing everything because we are born again!.
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Exactly! It's a lifetime race. :) As is said, it's not the destination, but the journey. :D
 
Acts 2:42. And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
Sounds like they were involved in embryonic seminarian activities to me.
 
Abdicate said:
Exactly! It's a lifetime race. :) As is said, it's not the destination, but the journey. :D
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I totally agree that learning about God is a lifetime journey. And I have never attended a seminary. But I like to read here when folks tell you the meaning of a hebrew word or what the Godly-minded men who came before have had to say, whether I agree a whole lot, some or little. But when it comes down to it, you have to check scripture to see the why, where, when of truth for yourself. And today, all the info is there at the individual's fingertips. There are still Godly-minded men who preach today.

On the other hand, I know the world is ending soon. They were predicting an "Achocalypse" On CNN. Wondering why I threw out my left over Halloween candy....Sheesh. :)
* Edit...I didn't really throw it away. I gave it to a neighbor with 2 small children.
 
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1 Cor 13:12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
 
Major said:
You produce a lot of words but for the life of me I can not figure out what it is that you are trying to communicate.

Can you cut down on the words and increase the meaning so we can grasp what it is that you are trying to say?????
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I was going to say the same thing. You said it much better though
 
calvin said:
1 Cor 13:12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
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LOL...I was thinking that when I clicked like on Mike's post....I was expecting to get to Heaven and really know everything then.
 
calvin said:
Peter, at no time have I said you do/did. At no time have I even replied to you until you replied to a post of mine, and that was a post with another in mind. But please don't take my comments as being personally accusative of yourself.
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We are ok, I am sorry I stepped on your toes.

peter
 
@GBzone - What was Jesus doing with His Disciples, during His ministry if not running a kind of seminary. He was educating them to the truth. I think? we all agree that there are false teachers out there - even a lot of them. Some with seminary diplomas - some not. And there are some good preachers/teachers without a diploma. When God talked to me, a few years ago...I told Him, I didn't understand. He sent me "to find His people and learn." While it may strike you as continued delusion, but I think He sent me here. And eventually, I started to learn. And I like talking about God. Or should I say typing?
 
Silk said:
@GBzone - What was Jesus doing with His Disciples, during His ministry if not running a kind of seminary. He was educating them to the truth. I think? we all agree that there are false teachers out there - even a lot of them. Some with seminary diplomas - some not. And there are some good preachers/teachers without a diploma. When God talked to me, a few years ago...I told Him, I didn't understand. He sent me "to find His people and learn." While it may strike you as continued delusion, but I think He sent me here. And eventually, I started to learn. And I like talking about God. Or should I say typing?
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What more can I say?
I have clearly stated that I am NOT against education and learning Greek and Hebrew.

But I have also stated that is NOT the qualification any man of God teacher preacher or any other minister as listed in Ephesians .
I have also clearly stated that the general trend that is growing in the church is to assert or imply that if you do not understand Greek and Hebrew then you don't really understand the scriptures.

and while I have clearly stated those positions .I also do not think that such assertions or statements can be made without some biblical argument to substantiate them.

In Christ
gerald
 
Silk said:
@GBzone - What was Jesus doing with His Disciples, during His ministry if not running a kind of seminary. He was educating them to the truth. I think? we all agree that there are false teachers out there - even a lot of them. Some with seminary diplomas - some not. And there are some good preachers/teachers without a diploma. When God talked to me, a few years ago...I told Him, I didn't understand. He sent me "to find His people and learn." While it may strike you as continued delusion, but I think He sent me here. And eventually, I started to learn. And I like talking about God. Or should I say typing?
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Yet if you go by that argument they still did not understand most of what eh taught and even up to the last minute were still expecting the restoration of the kingdom of Israel. or earthly kingdom.
It would take the Baptism of the holy Spirit and the filling of the Holy Spirit" to open the eyes of their understanding " to all that Jesus taught them .

in Christ
gerald
 
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