What is the real value of scripture?

[Brother_Mike_V]

I agree with everything you have said here but one part. I believe there are spirit filled Christians. I just got done watching a movie called "Holy Ghost" and one thing that it stated was most Christians today belief in the trinity is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Bible. I think Christians just feel the Holy Spirit is kinda weird or just makes them uncomfortable?

I guess I should clarify: what I was eluding too is being 'filled' with the Holy Spirit-or better said-allowing the Spirit to have full control. 'Saved' Christians ( the Saints) have access to the Spirit at all times; whether or not we allow the Spirit total control is another topic....

In my opinion; Paul would have qualified as one who came very close to giving total control over to the Holy Spirit. I think in the analytical process; our measure of faith would be directly proportional to our level of communion with the Spirit.

I know my level of faith is very small...

 

[GBzone]

I agree with everything you have said here but one part. I believe there are spirit filled Christians. I just got done watching a movie called "Holy Ghost" and one thing that it stated was most Christians today belief in the trinity is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Bible. I think Christians just feel the Holy Spirit is kinda weird or just makes them uncomfortable?

Given that when he shall come He will" convict the world of sin righteousness and judgement" Im not surprised .
and given that he inspired men to write what is written that we might be "corrected and reproved " as well as instructed in righteousness " is it surprising that sometimes people feel uncomfortable ?
No man who found himself in the presence of God for the first time were "comfortable" Isiah said "woe is me!......"
John fell down as one dead.
Job "repented in dust and ashes "
Moses was terrified and so were a few other people recorded.
To start with .
For God is light and reveals that which is hidden.
and one reason why the Lord is "OUTSIDE the church knocking on its door" is that while people like the idea and the name of it .The reality is altogether different.
God the Father is HOLY .God the Son is HOLY and God the Holy Spirit is Holy as well .
Holy Holy Holy scried the Seraphim one to the other and so HOLY they could not look upon He who was THRICE Holyt but covered their faces and therefore eyes with their wings ,

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ . The Spirit of truth .The Spirit of God . The unconfortablenes is the flesh .
Man thinks his intellect alone is sufficient . It is not and when He come the intellect cannot of itself cope.
The Holy Spirit upturns every presumption and perception we have of the world ourselves and the Word of God that is not of God.
Its a challenge that goes to the very heart of a man the question is will he respond or react?

That most of our churches are filled with man made traditions and 'order of service ' means that the Holy Spirit cannot do His work as HE wills .
I have been to breaking of bread services or communion services where it is over done and dusted in about 5 minutes!
I have been to others where it can take 25 minutes to complete and that is not because of any long line of people waiting to partake .
I know which I prefer and those I do not I feel I have been robbed.
I have been to a funeral of a close 'relative' and the minster went through the ritual of a funeral service . But was as much comfort as being slapped with a wet dead fish.

"Behold I stand at the door and knock ......................................."
Which is surprising when you consider that after the resurection no closed locked or otherwise door was an obstical to Hm.

The call then is to the church to repent . The promise however is to "......those who have ears to hear and open the door to THEM ..............."

in Christ
gerald

 

[calvin]

Calvin there are no great men of God.......... We are all just flawed and sinful men and women that short of God's mercy would not exist. Although there are men and women God has used greatly
I read up on the 2 people you put in your post and I believe that their higher education has led them away from the very God they profess to believe in.
I would question if it was the higher learning that brought them to believe that Jesus was only a good man and the bible is a book of stories/myths.......... Truth will set you free

PETER CARNLEY: All religions have things going for them, and I don't think Christianity has a monopoly on truth but we have a particular set of beliefs focused on the unique significance of Jesus Christ, and that is unique to Christianity.

Babara Thiering denies the miracles of Jesus and spirituality altogether

peter

Well sir, when you say "I would question if it was the higher learning that brought them to believe that Jesus was only a good man and the bible is a book of stories/myths "' Not the higher learning, but the ruler of this world has blinded them to truth.
It should be noted that many many Godly servants of the Lord have 'higher learning' at least equivalent to those aforementioned, yet hold the faith in a good conscience and are as far as can be discerned by men, preaching and teaching the gospel of Christ Jesus in a faithful way.

 

[GBzone]

I guess I should clarify: what I was eluding too is being 'filled' with the Holy Spirit-or better said-allowing the Spirit to have full control. 'Saved' Christians ( the Saints) have access to the Spirit at all times; whether or not we allow the Spirit total control is another topic....

In my opinion; Paul would have qualified as one who came very close to giving total control over to the Holy Spirit. I think in the analytical process; our measure of faith would be directly proportional to our level of communion with the Spirit.

I know my level of faith is very small...

"If your faith was as small as a mustard seed ..................................."

Our measure of faith is in direct relationship to how much we understand the scriptures and walk in the light of what we have understood.
and our faith grows in the measure we put it into action what we have understood .

What I find amazing about Paul is that he was still saying that" I might eb made conformable unto His death" and that "I might know the power of His resurrection."
If he was not conformed to the Lords death or rather wanted to be much more . Then I suggest that there is more to and in the death of Christ than the church to date supposes .
Plus while I recognise that you cant know the power of a resurrection unless you are dead.
It seems to me by what he said that in the measure w eARE made conformable to His death will eb the measure we know the power of His resurrection .
Having said that what of Ephesians chapter 1 and his prayer "that the eyes of our understanding may be opened.............................................."!!?
I fear we are far from the truth and the reality of what is ours in Jesus Christ and have settled for beign BORN again. and think that is all .

and while the Holy Spirit on the one hand is given as an "earnest of our inheritance"
He is on the other hand to be like" a well of living waters springing up unto eternal life"

There are waters up to the ankles and a little child squealing with delight paddling in the sea knows far more about the nature of the sea than a professor sitting on the beach who refuses to get his shoes off. (think of Moses)
But what sayeth the scriptures?
There are "waters up to the loins " When you go in that deep you begin to feel the power of the sea and the temptation is to fear and go back to paddling. But having been made aware of the power of the sea , simply means you do not act foolishly .
then you find that the sea can support you and before long you find "there are waters to swim in"
We care to go from "faith to faith" Even as Abraham our father did .
and we should notice that the same pattern of the outer courts curtain in which we have entered by faith is the same pattern of the curtain into the Holy place to which we are also called to enter.
But first we need to take our shoes off and wash our feet (walk) and our hands (works) to eb corrected and reproved and instructed in righteousness putting of the old garments of this world and putting on Christ and the priestly garment . For we are also called to be "kings and priests unto God"
In the outer court we walk by sight by the light of the sun .
In the Holy place we walk by faith in the light of the 7 branched lamp which speaks of the Holy Spirit and on the opposite side the bread which speaks of the Word of God .
For not only do we have a lamp we needs must have the oil as well.
Then it becomes "a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path "
and the alter of incense as of prayerful and expectant attitude.
In then outer court it is almost as if God is our servant for he supplies all of our need.
But in the Holy Place we serve both God and man and full fill Gods need. as it were.

In Christ
gerald




in Christ
gerald

 

[Major]

We have only to read some of the posts on this forum to see , (beyond doubt) that there are at least two major prerequisites for a person to be 'qualified to preach'.
1. An understanding of and skills in exegesis, exposition (hermeneutics if one prefers), and a thorough grounding in all 66 books of the Bible.
2. The testing of the spirit of the preacher.

We have seen teaching attempts here on this forum that range from Biblical and Godly to totally 'wacko Jacko' stuff.
So I'd say that while Peter et al. had no formal education(Paul excepted), they were educated by Jesus and the Holy Spirit and they were expressly equipped for the work they had to do.
The same or similar equipping is needed whenever the Word of God is to be preached.
But underpinning this equipping will of a necessity be formal education. Not necessarily in Greek and/or Hebrew, rather in the disciplines mentioned above. Though an understanding of Hebrew and Greek idiom is going to be useful for establishing original meaning ie. humor, sarcasm, poetic license etc.
I do not believe that just anybody who fancies himself as a preacher should be allowed to take to the pulpit and fill the air with his own noise.

Absolutly what I am saying "calvin".

I have heard some of the most outrageouse attempts to teach a personal agenda right here on this web site.
But that is not unique for this site as all you have to do is log into ANY Christian site and see the same thing.

A man who is called to preach by God and does not then follow up on that call to obtain a higher level of education in the Word of God will uselly wind up kissing rattlesnakes in Kentucky.

 

[Major]

Well sir, when you say "I would question if it was the higher learning that brought them to believe that Jesus was only a good man and the bible is a book of stories/myths "' Not the higher learning, but the ruler of this world has blinded them to truth.
It should be noted that many many Godly servants of the Lord have 'higher learning' at least equivalent to those aforementioned, yet hold the faith in a good conscience and are as far as can be discerned by men, preaching and teaching the gospel of Christ Jesus in a faithful way.

Agreed!

 

[Major]

I agree with everything you have said here but one part. I believe there are spirit filled Christians. I just got done watching a movie called "Holy Ghost" and one thing that it stated was most Christians today belief in the trinity is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Bible. I think Christians just feel the Holy Spirit is kinda weird or just makes them uncomfortable?

My experience is that a whole bunch of people have been taught that the Holy Spirit is some kind of Cosmic Santa Clause who is at our beck and call to do as we instruct Him.

 

[Major]

A l

Well you will have to take that up with the Lord . Because he said of John the Baptist that he was the greatest born of women .
and another place "he was great in the eyes of the Lord "

Not of course great in his own eyes .

Far better to be great in the eyes of the Lord than to eb great in the eyes of men .

I do wonder how many sound theological colleges there are left for they seem to be all conforming to the spirit of this world that seeks a one world religion .

in Christ
gerald

A lot more than you seem to believe.

Brother, going to a college or seminary is not a bad thing. NO ONE has to speek Greek or Hebrew however it is a really good idea to have some kind of working knowledge in them as they are what is written in the originals.

 

[Major]

"If your faith was as small as a mustard seed ..................................."

Our measure of faith is in direct relationship to how much we understand the scriptures and walk in the light of what we have understood.
and our faith grows in the measure we put it into action what we have understood .

What I find amazing about Paul is that he was still saying that" I might eb made conformable unto His death" and that "I might know the power of His resurrection."
If he was not conformed to the Lords death or rather wanted to be much more . Then I suggest that there is more to and in the death of Christ than the church to date supposes .
Plus while I recognise that you cant know the power of a resurrection unless you are dead.
It seems to me by what he said that in the measure w eARE made conformable to His death will eb the measure we know the power of His resurrection .
Having said that what of Ephesians chapter 1 and his prayer "that the eyes of our understanding may be opened.............................................."!!?
I fear we are far from the truth and the reality of what is ours in Jesus Christ and have settled for beign BORN again. and think that is all .

and while the Holy Spirit on the one hand is given as an "earnest of our inheritance"
He is on the other hand to be like" a well of living waters springing up unto eternal life"

There are waters up to the ankles and a little child squealing with delight paddling in the sea knows far more about the nature of the sea than a professor sitting on the beach who refuses to get his shoes off. (think of Moses)
But what sayeth the scriptures?
There are "waters up to the loins " When you go in that deep you begin to feel the power of the sea and the temptation is to fear and go back to paddling. But having been made aware of the power of the sea , simply means you do not act foolishly .
then you find that the sea can support you and before long you find "there are waters to swim in"
We care to go from "faith to faith" Even as Abraham our father did .
and we should notice that the same pattern of the outer courts curtain in which we have entered by faith is the same pattern of the curtain into the Holy place to which we are also called to enter.
But first we need to take our shoes off and wash our feet (walk) and our hands (works) to eb corrected and reproved and instructed in righteousness putting of the old garments of this world and putting on Christ and the priestly garment . For we are also called to be "kings and priests unto God"
In the outer court we walk by sight by the light of the sun .
In the Holy place we walk by faith in the light of the 7 branched lamp which speaks of the Holy Spirit and on the opposite side the bread which speaks of the Word of God .
For not only do we have a lamp we needs must have the oil as well.
Then it becomes "a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path "
and the alter of incense as of prayerful and expectant attitude.
In then outer court it is almost as if God is our servant for he supplies all of our need.
But in the Holy Place we serve both God and man and full fill Gods need. as it were.

In Christ
gerald




in Christ
gerald

It is probably me, but I am wondering what it is that you are trying to tell us?????

 

[Major]

Calvin there are no great men of God.......... We are all just flawed and sinful men and women that short of God's mercy would not exist. Although there are men and women God has used greatly
I read up on the 2 people you put in your post and I believe that their higher education has led them away from the very God they profess to believe in.
I would question if it was the higher learning that brought them to believe that Jesus was only a good man and the bible is a book of stories/myths.......... Truth will set you free

PETER CARNLEY: All religions have things going for them, and I don't think Christianity has a monopoly on truth but we have a particular set of beliefs focused on the unique significance of Jesus Christ, and that is unique to Christianity.

Babara Thiering denies the miracles of Jesus and spirituality altogether

peter

1 John 2:19.......
"They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us, but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us".

Every single person should examine themselves so as to make sure that they are really a saved person a child of God.....or just religious.

 

[Major]

First I'll admit that I have not read every single post thus far: I am merely inputting my 2 cents for no other reason than to input my 2 cents:

I believe that scripture in our 'age' in the form of the modern Bible is exactly what God intended. What I don't see as part of God's plan is His Word divided-given to all tongues and nations-yes; having to be put in multiple translations of the same language:no. I believe this is part of the problem with the ugly Church today.

Since we 'Christians' can't seem to agree on doctrine-especially in western theology; why in the world would anyone be attracted to a house divided; a house in turmoil?

Look at the state of our churches today: something so basic as homosexuality as a sin being taught since the Pentateuch is being changed and rewritten to accommodate sin in our church denominations.

We can't agree on anything-we can't agree on creation much less salvation; and these are all basic ("fundamental") doctrines built on the Rock of our foundation-Jesus Christ. We have cults that say they are 'Christian' but believe that Christ was an "enlightened man" and His deity is erased.

The whole thing is a mess because we don't-WON'T agree on scripture even though we are commanded to do so to be of 'One accord' and not of ourselves. That's why the early church was able to be so potent-they didn't have to worry about divided scripture, they had the 'Old Testament' and the Disciples filled with the Holy Spirit.

Dare I say there are any truly "filled" with the Holy Spirit today? The Church is a mess-and it starts with disagreeing on scripture. We ought to get back to Jesus and not be so concerned about 'man's doctrines' (religions).

God forgive me....

Well said brother.

 

[LanceA]

My experience is that a whole bunch of people have been taught that the Holy Spirit is some kind of Cosmic Santa Clause who is at our beck and call to do as we instruct Him.

I think you and I have a different view on the Holy Spirit. I agree the Holy Spirit isn't something we control, but He does flow through us and we have access to Him daily.

 

[Major]

I think you and I have a different view on the Holy Spirit. I agree the Holy Spirit isn't something we control, but He does flow through us and we have access to Him daily.

Yes sir......I agree completely.

 

[Ph8th]

Well sir, when you say "I would question if it was the higher learning that brought them to believe that Jesus was only a good man and the bible is a book of stories/myths "' Not the higher learning, but the ruler of this world has blinded them to truth.
It should be noted that many many Godly servants of the Lord have 'higher learning' at least equivalent to those aforementioned, yet hold the faith in a good conscience and are as far as can be discerned by men, preaching and teaching the gospel of Christ Jesus in a faithful way.

Calvin at no time did I condemn higher learning........ where the issues arrive with higher learning is when man is teaching their truth and not Holy Spirit. The woman you referenced earlier disclaims spirituality completely and the man bishop whatever denys the resurrection. Was that taught by Holy Spirit?

peter

 

[Silk]

What is this about Paul being uneducated? He was a Pharisee persecuting Christians before the road to Damascus. He spoke and wrote in several languages, along with being a Roman citizen. A Pharisee who knew the biblical Jewish canon very well.

Every person who has accepted Christ, in heart, as Savior, is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. We can still choose to believe whatever the "I" of us wants. The role of the Holy Spirit is to point us to and glorify Christ, not Himself, separate from Christ. We should, indeed, look for guidance from the Holy Spirit in reading scripture, but stop short of the confusion of saying our opinion(s) are the Holy Spirit as opposed to, say, our own understandings. This leads to Holy Spirit Hokey Pokey/drunk in the spirit/tokin' on the Spirit and other such.

I have found incredible truth in scripture and I have been enlightened by other sources. But as soon as these other sources contradict scripture - I toss it out. The Holy Spirit is the author - there are no contradictions - only truth.

 

[Major]

What is this about Paul being uneducated? He was a Pharisee persecuting Christians before the road to Damascus. He spoke and wrote in several languages, along with being a Roman citizen. A Pharisee who knew the biblical Jewish canon very well.

Every person who has accepted Christ, in heart, as Savior, is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. We can still choose to believe whatever the "I" of us wants. The role of the Holy Spirit is to point us to and glorify Christ, not Himself, separate from Christ. We should, indeed, look for guidance from the Holy Spirit in reading scripture, but stop short of the confusion of saying our opinion(s) are the Holy Spirit as opposed to, say, our own understandings. This leads to Holy Spirit Hokey Pokey/drunk in the spirit/tokin' on the Spirit and other such.

I have found incredible truth in scripture and I have been enlightened by other sources. But as soon as these other sources contradict scripture - I toss it out. The Holy Spirit is the author - there are no contradictions - only truth.

Absolutely correct my sister!! Paul was educated by his mother until the age of five. From age five to ten he studied with his father in the Hebrew scriptures and traditional writings. At the same time, being a Roman citizen and living in a Greek and Roman environment, he received a thorough education in the Greek language, history, and culture.

He was sent to Jerusalem at about the age of ten to attend the rabbinical school of Gamaliel, who was the son of Simeon the son of Hillel. Gamaliel was a most eminent rabbi who was mentioned both in the Talmud and in the New Testament (Acts 5:24-40; 22:3). Gamaliel was called Rabban - one of only seven teachers so called. He was a Pharisee, but he rose above party prejudice. He composed a prayer against the Christian "heretics". He lived and died a Jew.

 

[Major]

Calvin at no time did I condemn higher learning........ where the issues arrive with higher learning is when man is teaching their truth and not Holy Spirit. The woman you referenced earlier disclaims spirituality completely and the man bishop whatever denys the resurrection. Was that taught by Holy Spirit?

peter

I would say that there are bad and false teachers in every college and seminary and even right here on CFS. The person who is attending has to have the ability to discern truth from error because they as well as their professor has the Word of God to study.

I can tell you for a personal fact that I chose conservative and fundamental schools and even then there was those who would try to distort the Bible.

We are responsible and the Holy Spirit helps to give us the strength to know the difference.

 

[Silk]

That's why scripture tells us to check/test ourselves and others in our thinking and actions. We only really have the scriptures to test for truth. The devil can beat all of us together in a contest of who can cherry pick scripture best. He has it memorized but he still doesn't understand what is really being said. The Holy Spirit guides us in this, otherwise it's just another book.

 

[Abdicate]

I'll never darken the doors of an established theological school.

1 John 2:26-29 (KJV)
These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[GBzone]

A l


A lot more than you seem to believe.

Brother, going to a college or seminary is not a bad thing. NO ONE has to speek Greek or Hebrew however it is a really good idea to have some kind of working knowledge in them as they are what is written in the originals.

The high priest and all those of like mind had the' original text' more than any man alive to day could have and Hebrew was his mother tounge .
Saul of Tarsus likewise and more . Yet they understood not the scriptures.
Indeed Jesus said "ye boast in the scriptures .........." Even as some boast in their understanding of Greek and Hebrew and the 'original text' But ye know not him of whom the scriptures speak"
You have missed the point of what I was saying . It was not that you should not or cannot or it is unprofitable to learn Greek and Hebrew if you can .
But that does NOT qualify you . As proven with the above .

I am saying that there is a trend in the church today to think that you need the paper on the wall to be qualified or that you MUJST have those things to be qualified.
It was in the main ignorant and unlearned men that Jesus chose to be His disciples , Luke was a Dr and Mathew a tax collector . 2 out of 12 .
Saul of Tarsus I would argue had to take three years out in the Arabian desert to sort his head out with God and get all his biblical KNOWLEDGE but up to the road to Damascus no understanding in their right orders and to see things from Him who inspired all scripture s perspective .
For are not the scriptures purpose to see things from Gods perspective? and to do things that are good and right in Gods eyes?
If men by their wisdom knew not God .
and if the cross is a stumbling block to the Jew and foolishness to the Greek . What makes you think that those things ALONE either Greek or Hebrew will by themselves enlighten you?
For it did not the Greek or the Jew.
We do not ONLY have the scriptures to test for the truth.
When was Jesus tested? or proved?
When we was filled with the Word of God alone? or when he was filled with the Holy Spirit also?
Was it not the Holy Spirit that "led " and "drove" Him into the wilderness?
True it is the devil always uses scripture to the believer . But always with either something added "thou shalt NOT surely die" or in the case of the temptation in the wilderness omitting parts of scripture or out of context .
But Jesus not only knew the Word of God he was also filled with the Spirit of God who knows where all scripture goes and in what context and what was and is meant by it according to the "mind of God" Thus by and with and through Him ,the Lord was able to with the shield of faith quench the fiery dart and parry the lies with the "sword of the SPIRIT which is the Word of God " That is the LIVING word of God not the dead letter of it.
He Jesus promised would come and "ABIDE WITH YOU FOREVER " He has not come to come and go but to abide with you forever .
He who is the Spirit of truth who will and does and ONLY bears witness tor speaks of that which is of Me said the Lord.
Thus we can by Him "know the spirit of error" by the spirit of truth .
A bank teller is trained to recognise a forgery not by being shown all the different forgeries . But by being given the real thing and getting to know it . It is by the true then they know what is false .
So then it is by the Spirit of truth we may know truth from error 2and with practice know good from evil"
For even as that self same Spirit bore witness with our spirit that we are now the children of God . So also does he bare witness with our spirit all things that are of and from God of Jesus Christ the truth .and if it is not he will tell us so and we may not know straight away WHY something is wrong .But we should honour Him who says it is and if we trust and wait upon the Lord He will show us why sooner or later as well.
The reason why so many are going off the rails and beign led into by pass meadows and listening to puffed up self proclaimed prophets and apostles is they are NOT being led by the Spirit fo God .
For any preacher teacher pastor evangelist and indeed Apostle and prophet of God who is of God and comes form God and speaks not his own words nor seeketh his own glory but "seeketh the glory of Him that sent him." and is therefore filled led and anointed by the Holy Spirit .is the same Holy Spirit that fills the believer and abides in them. or should or can .
Thus he that was LED by Him to understand the scriptures as they should be understood . Will then LEAD the flock in the way he also was led .
If you read the letters of Paul ;expecially those to the Romans and Hebrews (Jew and the gentile) that si what he is doing . So that you and I and any who followed him would arrive at the same conclusions as he has .Or in other words come to the knowledge of the truth or arrive at the truth. "Till we all come to a unity of the faith " or "think the same things" or" have the same mind " What mind? His? No.
"Let this mind be in you as it was in Christ " let every thought be in subjection to the mind of Christ " and so on.

"ye young men the word of God dwelleth in you richly and ye have overcome the wicked one"
"Ye fathers ye know Him who was from the beginning"
By faith we KNOW ........." How the world was created .
Who is it who is from the beginning? If not the Creator of all things.
How on earth can you know Him who is from the beginning .If you do not believe what is written about the beginning who wrote or inspired it to be written and who was there "in the beginning"?
I don't know all that it means to know Him who is form the beginning .
But this I do know .
That in any measure that you do in very truth know Him who is from the beginning .Will make you unmovable .For your roots of your mind and your life go that deep that no "winds of doctrine that's weep through the church will move you and no enticing words of mans wisdom or baubles of this world will entice you .For you have something of far more worth than all the world put together .
I can well understand Paul in this matter or a little ; how he counted "all things as dung " in the light of the knowledge of Him.That many today still count as something .

The church does not know God.

It has heard of Him . and believes . But the vast majority of believers have never seen Him . Or had but the briefest of contact with God . and thinks that is enough .

When I say the church does not know God . I say many may well know Him as "little children"
Very few as young men and even fewer as "ye fathers "

What indeed is a father? ( I am not talking about Popes etc)

Some one has said or spoken about people with 'agendas'
I have an agenda . So does every one else on this site .
So indeed has God .
So for that matter has the devil.
The question is whether a mans agendas is Gods agenda . or not.

in Christ
gerald