Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by Big Moose, Jul 21, 2015.
So you don't believe that verse in revelation?
This is not worthy of you, Abdicate.
No offence intended. If A=B and B=C then A=C
The Bride of Christ = Wife of the Lamb
That's my point, which is why I asked the question. They are synonyms.
Forgive me, @Abdicate,
I just believe that it is important to retain the words that the Holy Spirit uses.
Here, in Revelation 21, the Lamb has been the subject of preceding chapters, and this is intended to remain part of the text, as it is. '... the bride, the Lamb's wife'.
* Our Lord has many titles, for many reasons, this is one more.
The figure of the Lamb is one of suffering (but also of power), and those who comprise the bride are overcomers from every generation, who have remained faithful in the face of trial, including Abraham, who looked for a city made without hands. As the Lamb who has suffered more than any man, undesearvedly, He will wipe away every tear, and comfort as only He can, those who have been faithful to Him.
Praise His Name!
For He alone is worthy.
Thank you, Abdicate.
In Christ Jesus
Rev. 5, 6, 7, (12:11), 13, 14, 15, 17, 19, 21,22
I understand, but the bride is comprised of only the overcomes in Christ. The ot saints are not part of the bride just as John the Baptist stated:
Joh 3:28-30 KJV Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease.
Abraham had the Heavenly City as his hope, so that in itself brings it into the realm of the OT, doesn't it? Then there are those who overcome in their generation mentioned in Hebrews 11, all Old Testament saints.
'But now they desire a better country,
that is, an heavenly:
wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God:
for He hath prepared for them a city.'
* Christ anticipated by them, His sacrifice looked back upon retrospectively now.
John the Baptist, Himself, overcame in His generation. Along with all who believed and acknowledged Christ as their Messiah during the Acts period.
The Church which is His Body came into operation following Israel's failure to acknowledge and repent at the end of the Acts period. The revelation of the mystery made to Paul was given that believers may understanding the will of God for the new dispensation that it heralded.
The dispensation of the mystery,( or fellowship), that had been hid in God until it's revelation, awaited the fulfillment of Isaiah 6:9,10 in Acts 28, when Israel (the Olive tree), the new covenant, Abrahamic blessings and all else associated with it went into abeyance, until a future day.
The Church which is His Body the fulness of Him that filleth all in all, was a new creation, following that final rejection by Israel. With it's hope far above all heavens it is quite separate from the hope of the Bride, which occupies the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven to the earth.
Thank you, Abdicate,
In Christ Jesus
The Old Test. saints were promised the LAND and we, the Church are promised the Pearly White City of God, New Jerusalem coming down out heaven.
The children of Israel were promised the Land, yes, but there were such, like Abraham, and those of like precious faith, who shone out for their faithfulness (Hebrews 11), these whose faith was accounted unto them for righteousness, are rewarded for remaining true during times of apostasy and of great trial. These, of Israel, comprise the Bride: as do those who believed the gospel during the Acts period, who, in the face of great persecution proved true, including Gentiles who had been grafted into their number, the olive tree (Rom.1:17), forming part of the believing remnant of Israel. The other company to be included in the 'bride' are those who prove faithful during the time of tribulation for Israel which is yet to come (Rev.20:4). Their hope is found in the New Jerusalem in all it's splendour, which descends out of heaven to the earth.
The Body, whose goal is 'the perfect MAN' (Eph. 4:13), is not the Bride: it is not linked with Israel as a nation, as gentiles during the Acts were; it is a separate company (see Ephesians, Colossians), and the prize of the high calling which accompanies it, for faithfulness and the endurance of faith, is not inclusion among those who constitute 'the Bride', but is the honour of reigning with Christ. All will 'live', but not all will, 'reign'. The hope of this company is far above all heavens, where their risen Lord now dwells, as God's own inheritance in the heavenlies (Eph.1:18)
Forgive me, for I see through a glass darkly.
In Christ Jesus
I can not agree with you Chris, but I still love you !!!
The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and the body of believers known as the church. These are those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal savior and have received eternal life and are promised heaven.
In the New Testament, Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride which is explained in Ephesians 5:25-27. Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age.
Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him as Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:24. At the Second Coming of Christ, the church will be united with the Bridegroom, the official "wedding ceremony" will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized Revelation 19:7-9; 21:1-2.
The New Jerusalem is not the church, but it takes on the church’s characteristics. In his vision of the end of the age, the Apostle John sees the city coming down from heaven adorned “as a bride,” meaning that the inhabitants of the city, the redeemed of the Lord, will be holy and pure, wearing white garments of holiness and righteousness. Some have misinterpreted verse 9 to mean the holy city is the bride of Christ, but that cannot be because Christ died for His people, not for a city. The city is called the bride because it encompasses all who are the bride, just as all the students of a school are sometimes called “the school.”
'Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ,
so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives,
even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;
That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
That He might present it to Himself a glorious church,
not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing;
but that it should be holy and without blemish.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies.
He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh;
but nourisheth and cherisheth it,
even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of His body,
of His flesh, and of His bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother,
and shall be joined unto his wife,
and they two shall be one flesh. (Matthew 19:5,6)
This is a great mystery:
but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular
so love his wife even as himself;
and the wife see that she reverence her husband.'
Within the love of Christ, we are one. Yet we may disagree.
It is an established truth that the church of Ephesians is, 'the Body' and 'the New Man'. Now the Scripture uses figures with discretion. The bridal relationship to Christ belongs to another calling, in Ephesians we are dealing with the Bridegroom if such a figure is allowable at all. The passage before us (above) is not discussing the title of the church of the dispensation of the Mystery; it is dealing with the relationship of husbands and wives who belong to this dispensation. If Ephesians 5 teaches that the church is 'the Bride', then Ephesians 6 teaches that the church is 'a child' and 'a slave', neither of which titles we would claim to be true.
The context does not allow for this passage to be a figure of the Church of the One Body. The words, 'even as', liken the relationship of husband and wife to that of Christ with His Church, in relation to the points raised, but that is all.
In Christ Jesus
Ephesians 5 makes 4 or 5 direct comparisons of wives to husbands and the church to Christ. Ephesians 6 does not make comparisons such as that other than just as slaves to a master, so too we are slaves to Christ. That comparison or description is made elsewhere in Romans and 1 Corinthians. I read Eph 5 as Major does.
I think the kicker is verse 31:
29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
Just as the wife is joined to the body of the husband, the church bride is joined to the body of Christ. The concept may be unsettling, so this is why Paul says this is a great mystery. It's not a physical joining as much as it is spiritual.
Chris.......does the quote.............."but I speak concerning Christ and the church" not identify the church as the Bride of Christ?
Then verse 32 calls the context a "Great Mystery". It seems to me that this holy secret revealed here in the New Test. by Paul is great. The comparison of the marriage union with the union of Christ and His Church is the mystery and is inescapable.
The context then is the love a husband has for his wife as compared to the love Christ has for His church as noted in verse 25.
Christ gave Himself for that church so that "He can present it to Himself a glorious church" (verse 27) in the future.
The Bridegroom presents His bride to Himself and it will be a glorious church who will be displayed in the New Jerusalem City of God......The Pearly White City of God we see in Revelation 22 coming down from heaven which will be the home of the Bride/church.
Then Ephesians 6 portrays the church as a soldier, that soldier's relationships, his enemy, the protection the soldier has to help him. Paul was the example of that kind of soldier!!!!
Ephesians 6:1 does identify "children" with instructions on how they are to act. Now some may think that odd, but I promise you that the life of a soldier does not start in school or in boot camp. It must begin in the family upbringing at his home. That child must learn what obedience means.
Every single soldier will testify that the 1st lesson they (we) all learn is to obey those in authority. He must follow orders.
I understand your reasoning: however, likening aspects of the relationship of husband and wife, with the relationship Christ has with His Church is one thing; saying that the Church is 'the Bride, the Lamb's wife' of Revelation 21, is another. To impose that interpretation upon this comparison in Ephesians 5, which deals with the practical application of the doctrine contained in the earlier chapters of Ephesians, as it related to our relationship with others, is out of line with it's purpose. It also makes a nonsense of the goal to which the Body of Christ reaches, which is - 'a perfect MAN.' (of Eph. 4:13).
I don't believe God mixes His metaphors like this.
In Christ Jesus
We will just have to stand in disagreement of this Chriss. God bless you and thanks for your thoughts on this.
Interesting side note, the word church can mean "the called out". Just as the bride in Jesus' day would be called out to go to the grooms house for the marriage feast.