Discussion in 'Doctrinal Discussions' started by vengaturreino, Feb 20, 2015.

  1. I would say to you that I have personally been where David was when he wrote those words. Just like David I recognized that the humility of affliction, the rocks of adversity were God's gift given to draw me closer to Him.
  2. #102 Fish Catcher Jim, May 1, 2015
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
    I am not saying that this did not draw you closer for God can work Good in all things to those who LOVE Him and are called according to His purpose. This does not say God causes all things... I can go get drunk for 3 weeks on end and then end up sick and in the pits and look up and realise Gods way is better but this does not say God made me drink for 3 weeks to get me to see Him.
    Euphemia likes this.
  3. True.....YOU choose to do that. However Jim, it was God who allowed you to do that.

    Jim, remember Job? Chapter 1:21.........
    “The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised”.

    Doesn't that tell us that God causes ALL things, or that He allows all things?

    Job did not understand why God had allowed the things He did, but he knew God was good and therefore continued to trust in Him. Ultimately, that should be our reaction as well.

    God allows things to happen for His reasons, whether or not we understand them. Above all, however, we must remember that God is good, just, loving, and merciful. Often things happen to us that we simply cannot understand
  4. God does allow some things in the lives of His children, but He is not the cause of all of them.
  5. Not so my sister. IF God does not cause ALL things He certainly "allows" some things. That is by definition the same thing.

    Now, God did not create evil and suffering, but it’s true that he did create the potential for evil to enter the world, because that was the only way to create the potential for genuine goodness and love. But it was human beings, in our free will, who brought that potential evil into reality.

    Rom. 8:28..........
    “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”

    ALL means ALL not some but ALL.

    Above all, however, we must remember that God is good, just, loving, and merciful IN ALL THINGS. Often things happen to us that we simply cannot understand. However, instead of doubting God's goodness, our reaction should be to trust Him. ”Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight” (Proverbs 3:5-6). ( )http://www.gotquestions.org/bad-things-good-people.html#ixzz3YueYb2CI
  6. This is one of the several issues on which you and I diverge, Major. There is no "if".

    Yes, God is able to make ALL things work for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose...but that does NOT mean that He visits hardship or evil upon His children. That would make him a bit schizophrenic.

    Our hardships are either the cause of our disobedience, spiritual ignorance, or a hindrance brought to us by the working of the enemy. God may allow these things for His reasons, but He is not the author of them. He is only good and ALL of His thoughts about us are only good.

    Isaiah 43:1-3
    But now, O Jacob, listen to the Lord who created you.
    O Israel, the one who formed you says,
    “Do not be afraid, for I have ransomed you.
    I have called you by name; you are mine.
    2 When you go through deep waters,
    I will be with you.
    When you go through rivers of difficulty,
    you will not drown.
    When you walk through the fire of oppression,
    you will not be burned up;
    the flames will not consume you.
    3 For I am the Lord, your God,
    the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.
    I gave Egypt as a ransom for your freedom;
    I gave Ethiopia and Seba in your place.

    Jeremiah 29:11
    11 For I know the plans I have for you,” says the Lord. “They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope.

    Psalm 139:17
    17 How precious are your thoughts about me, O God.
    They cannot be numbered!

    Psalm 145:9
    9 The Lord is good to everyone.
    He showers compassion on all his creation.
  7. God gives and God takes away is an old religious statement. Religion has run with that statement. God allowing and giving permission are very different things. What most things people tend to say God allows are things God does not control. Another words He has placed some things in the hands of man and we need to bring Him into the picture.
  8. That OK. It will not be the one and only. I still love you!
  9. Jim, the truth lies in the understanding of God’s will that we see in the Bible as God’s Permissive will and His Ssovereign will.
  10. True but as I used to believe that His permissive will was a good place to walk I found out that it is a very limited and lacking place to be. Another words you allow your self to miss out on all God has for you or another words just skim by.
    Cturtle likes this.
  11. No my brother that is not the meaning that I am talking about. I am afraid that You have not understood these two doctrines.

    God’s sovereign will is God’s "ultimate" will. Jim, this facet of God’s will comes out of the recognition of God’s sovereignty and the other aspects of God’s nature. This expression of God’s will focuses on the fact that God sovereignly ordains everything that comes to pass. In other words, there is nothing that happens that is outside of God’s sovereign will. This aspect of God’s will is seen in verses like Ephesians 1:11, where we learn that God is the one “who works all things according to the counsel of His will,” and Job 42:2, "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.” This view of God’s will is based on the fact that, because God is sovereign, His will can never be frustrated. Nothing happens that is beyond His control.

    That is not an opinion Jim but accepted Christian doctrine. I know you will not like that but that is what it is my brother. This understanding of His sovereign will does not imply that God causes everything to happen. Rather, it acknowledges that, because He is sovereign, He must at least permit or allow whatever happens to happen. This aspect of God’s will acknowledges that, even when God passively permits things to happen, He must choose to permit them, because He always has the power and right to intervene. God can always decide to either permit or stop the actions and events of this world. Therefore, as He allows things to happen, He has “willed” them in this sense of the word.

    Then the other aspect of God’s will that we see in the Bible is God’s permissive will. This facet of God’s will describes God’s attitude and defines what is pleasing to Him. For example, while it is clear that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, it is also clear that He wills or decrees their death. This expression of God’s will is revealed in the many verses of Scripture which indicate what God does and does not take pleasure in.

    For example, in 1 Timothy 2:4 we see that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,” yet we know that God’s sovereign will is that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day” which is seen in John 6:44.
  12. Greetings my friend!

    As i read the definition of perfect will, i would have to say that even if it is church doctrine....in my understanding of the scriptures....it is not true to what the Word teaches.

    If one reads the first 10 verses of Ephesians 1 i believe that we find the plan that God has for every person that He has created. Should we choose to accept God's perfect will and assignment for our individual lives, whether it be a janitor or shoe salesman or a pastor or teacher.....every day we still have a choice to obey God's directions. Just because someone chooses to accept God's assignment for their lives does not mean that everything is automatic....that God overrides everything and automatically has everything in place. There are still everyday instructions that have to be chosen to obey. Like walking in Love and forgiveness with another person, or speaking God's Word over a persons word or opinion.

    When God sovereignly decided to give man dominion over the earth, He gave us the right to control things on this earth, and unless we invite Him in and know that we have the authority, then God has no say. In other Words we are God's mouthpiece in the earth, and if we do not take authority over things like the weather or what have you then no God cannot act, or does not have the power or the right to intervene.

    What you have said makes it sound like God chooses to allow people to be killed in tornadoes or floods or whatever. (Please correct me if i am misunderstanding what you have said at the end of the second large paragraph)

    In my opinion 1 Timothy 2:4 describes God's perfect will, and John 6:44 describes how that plan is carried out, or how that plan is put into motion.

    Thank you for letting me but in and give my understanding.
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.
  13. Greetings,
    I can agree that Proverbs 3:5-6 is a good attitude to have in regards to when bad things happen, a good way to stay calm so that one can get with God to find out what to do, but i really do not think that it has anything to do with why bad things happen to good people.

    Bad things happen to good people because they make wrong choices. They may be grumbling or in strife with someone, and take a drive on their motorcycle, to cool off so that they can stay walking in love and forgiveness as God has been directing them to.....and because the enemy has had them so preoccupied with combating the strife in their home.....they forgot to check their brakes (that are so low, it makes it difficult to stop) and as they take a corner a little to fast, they end up in an accident that cost them their life. Was this God's will that they die. Or get into an accident in the first place? Not hardly...but the devil who wants to hurt God, by destroying His people...gets in there if we open the door. James 3:16 says where there is envying and strife, there is confusion and every evil work.

    If it has anything to do with stealing, killing or destroying......it is of the devil. There are a lot of things that happen in this earth that the devil is the cause of, but because people cannot explain it or think that God is in control of everything.....the devil just sits back hiding in the shadows while doubt is cast and God's character is questioned.

    Euphemia and Fish Catcher Jim say Amen and like this.
  14. faith like a child.JPG
  15. I hear you sister. I even agree with you. However, I have said this before and we all need to think real hard on this.

    You said.........."Bad things happen to good people because they make wrong choices".
    In a lot of instances that is right. But is that what YOU would say to the parents of a 2 year old child who is afflicted with terminal cancer???

    We are all bothered by the fact that we think people suffer undeservedly. And I think we should be. Any person with an ounce of moral sensitivity is outraged by the injustices of our world but we are not the first ones to think that.

    Abraham asked G-d, "Should the Judge of the whole world not act fairly?"
    Moses asked, "Why have You treated this people badly?"
    And today don't we still ask, "Why God, why?"

    Imagine you are in a hospital and you hear a woman screaming with pain. Outside her room, her family is standing around chatting, all smiling and happy. Wouldn't you scream at them, "What's wrong with you? Can't you hear how much pain she is in?" They answer, "This is the delivery ward. She is having a baby. Of course we are happy."

    When you have an explanation, pain doesn't seem so bad anymore. We can tolerate suffering when we know why it is happening.
    There in lies the real problem. If we could make sense of innocent people suffering, and that 2 year old with cancer we could rationalize tragedy, then we could live with it. We would be able to hear the cry of sweet children in pain and not be horrified.

    But we can not do that. As long as the pain of innocents and loved ones remains a burning reality, we are bothered by its existence. And as long as we can't explain pain and suffering, we must alleviate it. If innocent people suffering does not fit into our worldview, we must eradicate it. Rather than justifying their pain, we need to get rid of it.
    No buts sister. We are all here to communicate one with an0ther and hope grow and learn and still be friends in the process.

    Now, I really do not know how else to explain this Bible doctrine on the "wills" of God.

    God says in Ephesians 1:11, that HE is the one “who works all things according to the counsel of His will.”
    I take ALL to mean all which then means that God has a plan and is working that plan no matter what. What happens He determines either by direct contact or by the action of allowing something to happen. Either way they both are due to the soventry of a Holy and powerful God who is in control of ALL things.

    We can then go to Job 42:2........
    "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.”

    This view of God’s will is based on the fact that, because God is sovereign, His will can never be frustrated. Nothing happens that is beyond His control.

    Proverbs 19:21 ............
    "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand."

    Isaiah 45:6-7 ..............
    "That people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these "things."

    As we see from the Word of God, God himself is brings ALL things to the end He has intended them to be.
    That is His "soverign" will.
  16. @Major,
    Before i would answer parents of a two year old who has cancer, i would want to know if the parents are believers. Then go from there. Non believers do not have a covenant with our Lord. So it is truly possible that the parents sin (which can be as simple as not having accepted Jesus as Lord) has caused the baby to be attacked. If they are believers then it still is from the enemy and we should be encouraging them to believe that God is true to His Word....loves them beyond all that they could ever imagine, and desires their baby to be well.

    However if the church people do not believe that it is God's will that everyone be well and healed then that cannot be a conversation. It will just be "well it was God's fault or will (same difference in my opinion) that this happened" or "well we just do not know what to do....so lets pray and ask God if He desires that this baby be saved"

    But in both cases the prayers are prayed in doubt and causing confusion, because they do not line up with the Word of God, nor with God's character. Even if someone does not believe that Is. 53:5 is a scripture that can be used for healing...there are a ton of scriptures in the Bible (if one chooses to believe that they apply for today). And as those parents are reassured that God is faithful and loves them and their baby, then they can trust and believe that their child will be made well. But as long as people do not teach what the Bible clearly says...then healing will not come. And we are just left with trying to figure out what to say to comfort the parents.

    ************ But we can not do that. As long as the pain of innocents and loved ones remains a burning reality, we are bothered by its existence. And as long as we can't explain pain and suffering, we must alleviate it. If innocent people suffering does not fit into our worldview, we must eradicate it. Rather than justifying their pain, we need to get rid of it.************* In this paragraph i agree with the first sentence.....but the rest cannot and should not be a reason to lie to people telling them that God is the reason for their suffering. It is not God's fault. It is not consistent with God's character. God is love....not death, sickness and disease or anything that is killing, stealing or destroying. Those are the characteristics of the devil.

    The characteristics of God in the old testament, are not displayed in the same way in the new testament due to the Blood of Jesus His Son who came to be our covering. God has not dealt with the people (believers) of the new testament the same as He did in the old because of the Blood of Jesus.

    Now on to Ephesians 1:11 and God's will. In your understanding of the Word....would it be safe to say that God's Word is the same as His Will? Once we establish this i will continue my answer.

    Thanks very much for taking the time to discuss this and allow me to say what i think. I do agree that we should be able to discuss things and still be friends...as i pray for you and your family and all of the others in this forum. I have not any aught against anyone, and choose to love everyone.

    blessings my friend! It has been a pleasure talking to you!
    Fish Catcher Jim likes this.

Share This Page