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What Is Paul Teaching Here?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Stan, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. 1 Cor 5:9-13
    9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
    12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
  2. It's the same theme we were discussing elsewhere: the Church must only judge within itself, and has no business attempting to force the unsaved into God's mold.

    That's how I see it.
    Stan likes this.
  3. I think he means that while we may want to help someone steeped in sin (but we are all sinners, nevertheless)...the immoral will lead us away from Christ. So, best to avoid them altogether, if you can.

    I do find this passage ...confusing however. Jesus ate with sinners, why should we avoid them like the plague?
  4. Look again Wegs: Paul is speaking of church-folks that are blatantly immoral, not the unsaved. Big big diff.
  5. We are all sinners, though.

    But, I guess the gist is...we are not to fellowship with believers who are steeped in immorality.

    But, Jesus said that those without sin, should cast the first stone.

    I freely admit, I don't really care for many of Paul's 'teachings.' He was a holy man, but...idk. I don't feel any of us have the right to judge someone's walk with Christ. I really don't. I understand the passage, but I've been in sin before. I'm grateful God didn't kick me out of His fold, and gave up on me.
  6. Well....Sorry ya don't like Paul.
  7. :( I didn't say that but ok.
  8. We are called to:

    #1 Love (Which includes following the law in the flesh [obedience] and being free whilst in the Spirit). (Matthew 22:36-40)
    #2 Reach the lost with the Gospel-ALL of the Gospel to include the Old and New Testament. (Mark 16:15)
    #3 Rebuke/ admonish, teach/ train & fellowship within the body of Christ (fellow believers).

    We could say 'love the sinner, hate the sin' which does apply here; but as Rusty pointed out the original intent here is addressing believers who continue to be disobedient. They need to be rebuked and brought back under the umbrella blood of Christ in Spirit-not the pull of fleshly desires.

    Those who are ignorant need to be taught the ways of the Lord; but once taught-they are responsible for complying.

    People like to get the 'fire insurance' and use the false doctrine of being 'free from the law' If you read Paul's epistles-especially Romans; it becomes quite clear we are free from the law ONLY when we are walking in the Spirit 100%. Which is near impossible since we are still attached to the flesh.

    Yes-we are most definitely responsible under the 'law'. Christ Himself said he did not come to abolish the law-but to fulfill it. (Matthew 5:17-18) When you fully dedicate every breath and moment in sacrifice to the LORD-then you are fulfilling the law in love which means you are sacrificing yourself just like Christ did. Which means you should be experiencing persecution form the world; and quite frankly, until you are martyred-you have not fulfilled the law.

    As Christ said- there is no greater gift one can give but to lay down one's life for another. Salvation is free, all other blessings come from sacrifice and obedience.(John 15:13)

    1 Corinthians 5 (KJV)
    1:It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
    2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
    3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
    4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
    7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
    8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
    9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
    10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
    11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
    12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
    13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

    People need a firm understanding of the distinction between: flesh, spirit (soul) and Spirit (Holy Spirit). Until these parts are recognized by the individual as existing within one physical body after salvation, the education process is hindered.

    Our personal soul/ spirit and flesh do not make us Holy, only the acceptance and allowing the Holy Spirit to commune with us brings us closer to being Holy. Therefore, we need the 'law' to guide us. The 'law' was given to us to reveal the difference between sin and righteousness in our own flesh and spirit. (Galatians 5) If you are fully 100% living in the Holy Spirit-you have no need for the fleshly law. But since we are 2 parts 'physical' still tied to earth, we NEED the law for rebuke, correction, and edification. (2 Timothy 4:1-5, Ephesians 4)

    The truth of the matter is this-even the saved reject many truths after salvation; because we don't want to have to change our habits and behavior. Don't 'make light' the Word of God and learn what it means to be Holy. Start with the 'law' then transcend to the Spirit in Faith. For your freedom comes from the only Source of Truth-Jesus Christ. (John 14:6) Abandon your flesh.

    Matthew 22:
    1:And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
    2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
    3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
    4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
    5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
    6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
    7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
    8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
    9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
    10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
    11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
    12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
    13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
    wegs likes this.
  9. I was raised Christian and in all my years...NO ONE has ever explained this to me as you have brother mike. I want to cry (out of joy lol)

    I'm going to print this out. I think sometimes I fear judging people...I ask myself is this right of me to do? But you really explain this so well that I now see it.

    Thank you! I feel truly enlightened as I felt uneasy when these subjects have come up in my Christian circles.
  10. Remember we do not "judge"; we have to learn how to rebuke, edify and counsel in Love. Which I am still trying to figure out how to do that exactly. Thankfully; 'with God all things are possible'...

  11. Wegs, I've been saved for over 42 years, and just in the past year got what Paul was saying here. Most times we read WITHOUT asking the Holy Spirit for His help and that's OK to read the Word rather than NOT, but reading it asking for the Holy Spirit to guide us into ALL truth is very important.
    The point Paul is making here is that we are responsible for the BOC, ALL of us, but we are NOT respobsible for what unbelievers do, and not responsible to tell them what to do. Notice carefully what Paul says in v10; ..."not at all meaning the people of this world ..."

    Rusty likes this.
  12. OK....so you don't like many of Paul's teachings, right? Isn't that what you mean here?
    That's why I was sad you didn't like him (maybe too blunt there):unsure: , as he is what he teaches, IMO.
  13. Hi Wegs, just my thoughts on your statements.

    Christians are not sinners. If we sin we repent. That makes us a Christian who makes mistakes. A sinner doesn't repent and sin for them is no mistake, rather a nature.

    Jesus was speaking to the unsaved. Even so, no Christian would cast a stone as rebuking is not condemning and murder. Rather caring advice / discipline (by elders) with the extremity being kicked out of fellowship.

    There is a reason 3/4 of the NT is based on Paul's teaching. I am grateful to every brother and sister that rebuke me when I step out of line. This is the reason Paul says Heb 10:25. Only rebuking an older person needs extra thought 1Tim 5:1.

    Some good scriptures on rebuking amongst Christians; Matt 18:15-17, Prov 27:5, 1 Timothy 5:20, 2 Timothy 4:2, Titus 2:15, Gal 6:1, James 5:20, Prov 1:23 and my favourite, Prov 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; profuse are the kisses of an enemy.
  14. I take this scripture and add 2 Cor 6:14 'what fellowship can light have with darkness?' and conclude that as Christians we need to differentiate between our witnessing and social circles, between saved and unsaved. We are here to reveal Christ to the unsaved (no personal judgement of any kind needed as our presence brings the light of God that judges all for their sin of rejecting Him) and be there for our brothers and sisters in Christ (loads of personal judgement for discerning, exhorting and rebuking)....as though they are our brothers and sisters.

  15. Not what we read in 1 John 2:1-2 KJ
    My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    John clearly shows believers sin as well as the world(unbelievers)

    wegs likes this.
  16. I consider myself saved, and I do sin at times. Sometimes falling into the same sin, sadly. But, yes, I'm sorrowful, and after examining my conscience, I do ask for forgiveness from God.

    I have to think about the rest you have said here...I'm not sure I fully agree, but I do agree to a degree.
  17. lol ok.
    I wouldn't say I dislike Paul or his teachings. I think I struggle with them at times in his delivery. lol

    I was reading something a while back and it stuck with me, in trying to understand Paul and 'his delivery.' A pastor made the commentary that Paul might have honestly thought that time was of the essence. He didn't want to waste time candy coating things. He articulated it better than me. I'll try to find it and post it here. It helped me understand Paul's 'personality' a bit better. lol
    Rusty likes this.

  18. Yes Wegs, Paul did have a sense of immanency, as did John is Revelation. That sense was useful, and given God's knowledge of His own creation probably somewhat warranted.
    Peter himself, addresses Paul's personality in his own Epistle.
    2 Peter 3:14-16
    So then, dear friends, since you await these things, strive to be found without spot or blemish, at peace in him. And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as also our dear brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given to him, as he does in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters, in which are some things hard to understand, things that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
    wegs likes this.
  19. Stan, committing a sin does not make a believer a sinner anymore then quacking makes a dog a duck. 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Can we sin? yes, duh. But that does not make us a ''sinner'' ;).
  20. No offence but you must think more on Paul and his predicament before you disregard his teaching. The NT is for us living after the resurrection...just as Paul did. Paul's gospel is 100% for us. If you ignore Paul's teaching, I am confused then as to what scripture you would follow as Paul says we are neither Jew nor gentile in Gal 3:28. Ignoring Paul would thus mean you identify yourself as either a Jew, super Jew or still a gentile....see my point better now :p?

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