What Is God?

Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.' (Isaiah 45:7 YLT98)

I don't know the Hebrew being used for create, Ab can you shed light on this word.
 
If evil is an allowable potential, given that god created humans in his own image, isn't god responsible for and subject to that potential?
 
If evil is an allowable potential, given that god created humans in his own image, isn't god responsible for and subject to that potential?

No! He is not part of His creation but other than it…He is Holy, Holy, Holy, thus utterly other so not subject to it. If God were the grand puppet master pulling all strings He would be responsible for it, but the Bible tells us He made man to have “dominion” to act as ruler over all that is on the earth….God is therefore NOT ultimately responsible for men’s actions and choices, they are….
 
workmx said:
If evil is an allowable potential, given that god created humans in his own image, isn't god responsible for and subject to that potential?
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No, I agree with Brother Paul. Got your question mixed up with my thoughts. Hope nobody read what I deleted :whistle:.
 
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workmx said:
I see. So god is not immanent (Acts 17:28) or omnipresent (Psalms 139:8)?
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On the contrary, He is both simultaneously, and also Self limited as required of Himself. Where did you get this strange conclusion? Oh no! Don't tell me you are one of those Atheists that have intellectual difficulty reading plainly what someone says such that in their psychological challenge MUST reinterpret even logical reasoning into something not said or implied...Oh I hope not....that is such a waste of fine minds...

God is omnipresent and in a sense immanent (He is in those born of His Spirit and not in those, by His choice, who have hated or rejected Him)....if we could call "everywhere" (as in any place called Universe) a place where God is, then I would say He is more than omnipresent (everywhere at once) because He is outside of Universe as well as in it...

When God (so many times) became in the form of a man (or any other temporal form) He did not cease being omnipresent...though even if He becomes flesh this in no wise compromises or divides His nature or His majesty or His awareness of all simultaneously...

So before we pursue further, are you an atheist?
 
Brother Paul said:
On the contrary, He is both simultaneously, and also Self limited as required of Himself. Where did you get this strange conclusion? Oh no! Don't tell me you are one of those Atheists that have intellectual difficulty reading plainly what someone says such that in their psychological challenge MUST reinterpret even logical reasoning into something not said or implied...Oh I hope not....that is such a waste of fine minds...

God is omnipresent and in a sense immanent (He is in those born of His Spirit and not in those, by His choice, who have hated or rejected Him)....if we could call "everywhere" (as in any place called Universe) a place where God is, then I would say He is more than omnipresent (everywhere at once) because He is outside of Universe as well as in it...

When God (so many times) became in the form of a man (or any other temporal form) He did not cease being omnipresent...though even if He becomes flesh this in no wise compromises or divides His nature or His majesty or His awareness of all simultaneously...

So before we pursue further, are you an atheist?
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He is. He said it in his intro.
 
workmx said:
I see. So god is not immanent (Acts 17:28) or omnipresent (Psalms 139:8)?
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This is a common mistaken assumption. You can be forgiven for thinking like this due to scripture like Rom 9.

But with any further reading of scripture you will grasp the fuller picture. Just a side note, why brother Paul is justified in asking if you are an atheist is because quoting half the verses applicable = half truth = devil tactics with Jesus as mentioned in Matt 4. A key verse to remember is verse 7 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.

So to your two verses I respond as I believe Jesus would. It is also written that God is good Psalms 136:1. God is just 2 Thess 1. God is impartial Acts 10:34.

Now you presented this equation: Creator + omniscience + omnipotent = no free will = assumption / half truth = God is evil (creating someone for hell = evil) and dumb.

Instead of: Creator + omniscience + omnipotent + good + impartial + just = free will = good God.

See God is who He is. Let scripture define Him, not your assumptions. If there was NO scripture mentioning God's goodness you would have an argument. As would all who view Rom 9 as proof of God being all powerful = do as He pleases and we just accept it as 'His version of good' :sick:.

God translated who He is into OUR vocabulary with scripture. When it says He is impartial, good and just...guess what it means? God also gave us IQ > 10 to discern this. Hence the common question to atheists is WHY the bias / narrow minded view of God?

God is good = God is good. Not some spiritual take on good meaning good with occasional evil.

Lastly remember God increases our understanding and IQ in heaven. Why if He had much to hide? You think we serve God because we assume / trust He is good?

God is good to the maximum. Everyone is so eager to want to reign in hell....a place where nobody will offer their lives for you..unlike Heaven where God has.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends


 
Brother Paul said:
If evil is an allowable potential, given that god created humans in his own image, isn't god responsible for and subject to that potential?
No! He is not part of His creation but other than it…He is Holy, Holy, Holy, thus utterly other so not subject to it. If God were the grand puppet master pulling all strings He would be responsible for it, but the Bible tells us He made man to have “dominion” to act as ruler over all that is on the earth….God is therefore NOT ultimately responsible for men’s actions and choices, they are….
Click to expand...

As I understand this: you are saying that god is not "part of his creation" (AKA the universe), which would indicate that god is not immanent or omniprensent. This contradicts the bible (as noted). Yet below you say that god is both. This is confusing because the bible also states that god is immaterial (John 4:24; Isaiah 57:15).

Also you seem to be implying a "free will" argument here: that also confuses me. If god is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-5; Proverbs 5:21; 1 John 3:20), how can humans have free will?

Brother Paul said:
On the contrary, He is both simultaneously, and also Self limited as required of Himself. Where did you get this strange conclusion? Oh no! Don't tell me you are one of those Atheists that have intellectual difficulty reading plainly what someone says such that in their psychological challenge MUST reinterpret even logical reasoning into something not said or implied...Oh I hope not....that is such a waste of fine minds...

God is omnipresent and in a sense immanent (He is in those born of His Spirit and not in those, by His choice, who have hated or rejected Him)....if we could call "everywhere" (as in any place called Universe) a place where God is, then I would say He is more than omnipresent (everywhere at once) because He is outside of Universe as well as in it...

When God (so many times) became in the form of a man (or any other temporal form) He did not cease being omnipresent...though even if He becomes flesh this in no wise compromises or divides His nature or His majesty or His awareness of all simultaneously...

So before we pursue further, are you an atheist?
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Again this is confusing, if god is self-limited why does the bible state that he is infinite (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalm 90:2; 1 Timothy 1:17)?

I am a sociologist seeking to understand how religious people think about their faith.
My personal opinionis that supernatural beings are unfalsiable and therefore unknowable (I guess you could call that agnosticism), with a tendency to disbelief (due to persimony).
 
Huntingteckel said:
He is. He said it in his intro.
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HT - Thanks - Indeed I did. And I stay here by your good grace. If I offend (although I don't intend to), I will take my punishment withour complaint.

As noted above, I am seeking to understand how the religious understand their world and relationship to their deity.
 
workmx said:
HT - Thanks - Indeed I did. And I stay here by your good grace. If I offend (although I don't intend to), I will take my punishment withour complaint.

As noted above, I am seeking to understand how the religious understand their world and relationship to their deity.
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I can't speak for everyone, but I'm glad you're hear. I always enjoy learning others beliefs.
 
KingJ said:
But with any further reading of scripture you will grasp the fuller picture. Just a side note, why brother Paul is justified in asking if you are an atheist is because quoting half the verses applicable = half truth = devil tactics with Jesus as mentioned in Matt 4. A key verse to remember is verse 7 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.
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Why? If god gave us logic, powerful/large brains and language, why can we not use them to expland our knowledge about the nature of god?

I ran into this argument while enrolled at my catholic high school 25 years ago. I am still waiting a reasonable answer.


KingJ said:
See God is who He is. Let scripture define Him, not your assumptions.
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Here is the full list of traits, as I have read them, in the bible:

1. omnipotent (Revelation 19:6; Jeremiah 32:17, 27),
2. omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-13; Jeremiah 23:23),
3. omniscient (Psalm 139:1-5; Proverbs 5:21; 1 John 3:20).
4. infinite (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalm 90:2; 1 Timothy 1:17),
5. incomparable (2 Samuel 7:22; Psalm 86:8; Isaiah 40:25; Matthew 5:48),
6. unfathomable (Isaiah 40:28; Psalm 145:3; Romans 11:33, 34),
7. incorruptible (Psalm 117:2; 1 Samuel 15:29),
8. unequaled (2 Samuel 7:22; Isaiah 40:25),
9. an all consuming fire (Isaiah 6:3; Habakkuk 1:13; Exodus 3:2, 4-5; Hebrews 12:29),
10. does not change (Malachi 3:6; Psalm 102:26-27),
11. does not lie (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Titus 1:2),
12. jesalous (Exodus 20:4-5),
13. creates evil (Isaiah 45:7),
14. is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything (Acts 17:25),
15. good (Romans 11:22),
16. gracious (Exodus 34:5-6),
17. manifests in the material world (Acts 17:28),
18. immaterial (John 4:24; Isaiah 57:15),
19. incomprehensible (Isaiah 40:28),
20. love (1 John 4:16),
21. the source of all life (Acts 17:25),
22. three gods in one (1 John 5:7) and
23. wrathful (Exodus 15:7; Deuteronomy 9; Psalm 69:24; John 3:36).


KingJ said:
Instead of: Creator + omniscience + omnipotent + good + impartial + just = free will = good God.
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What would the combination of all the above 23 traits give us? Noting that some are contradictory and others may be limited, due to the problem of evil and the Euthyphro dilemma.
 
Huntingteckel said:
I can't speak for everyone, but I'm glad you're hear. I always enjoy learning others beliefs.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I am eager to know more too. I had decided when young to train to be a catholic preist. So I wanted to explore and know as much as I could about god. Unfortunately my teachers (Christian Brothers) and preists could not answer my questions. So I am still seeking.
 
As I understand this: you are saying that god is not "part of his creation" (AKA the universe), which would indicate that god is not immanent or omniprensent. This contradicts the bible (as noted). Yet below you say that god is both. This is confusing because the bible also states that god is immaterial (John 4:24; Isaiah 57:15).

God is not part of His creation in that nothing of God is created! Do you see? It really makes perfect sense.

Now that being true does in no wise contradict His ability to be active IN His creation and or His being greater than His creation (superseding the whole called “Universe” which is greater than the sum of its forms, functions, and forces)…

And yes God is a non-corporeal Spirit…but can take on form without limiting His simultaneous limitlessness.

Also you seem to be implying a "free will" argument here: that also confuses me. If god is omniscient (Psalm 139:1-5; Proverbs 5:21; 1 John 3:20), how can humans have free will?

God foreknowing all the choices one will make does not stop one from choosing, nor does it cause one to make that choice and only that choice…

When God says IF you do this THEN I will do this, but IF you do that THEN I will do that, He knows which you will do, but being capable of not doing a and choosing b is within your power and had you done b instead of a He would have honored His promise or word but alas He foreknows you will not…

Again this is confusing, if god is self-limited why does the bible state that he is infinite (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalm 90:2; 1 Timothy 1:17)?

Because He is also omnipotent, He can continue to be infinite/eternal and represent Himself in a temporal form (thus formatively limiting this form to space/time…) and as one example of self-limiting I mean self-restraining ….sin cannot remain in His presence…but He is also loving and thus restraining final judgment offering repentance (metanaeo – a change of mind, and thus an attitude of contrition which leads to a change of behavior)…since all have sinned (broken immutable laws of God) He owes no man anything but acts through grace understanding the corruption of our nature…

I am a sociologist seeking to understand how religious people think about their faith.My personal opinion is that supernatural beings are unfalsiable and therefore unknowable (I guess you could call that agnosticism), with a tendency to disbelief (due to persimony).

Well I commend you that you are an agnostic (not denying the possibility, though you have no empirical evidence to sway you one way or the other) and not an Atheist (a totally un-defensible position)…

But the argument that because something cannot be falsified makes it untrue, or that because something can be falsified makes it true, is sheer absurdity and totally illogical! If something is claimed not to be true and that premise is falsified then logic demands its possibility and vice versa…this is like saying because aspects of Darwin’s theory can be falsified (shown to be in error and not true) would be to you proof that it is true…for you then, non-truth equals truth, and truth= non-truth…

To me this is a self–contradiction (not even a paradox), and can only be derived at by a mind convinced that there is no “truth” but rather that all truth is relative…

And by the way I also welcome you here....that does not mean I won't take you to the ropes (as I am sure you will with me)...

brother Paul
 
workmx said:
Thank you. I am eager to know more too. I had decided when young to train to be a catholic preist. So I wanted to explore and know as much as I could about god. Unfortunately my teachers (Christian Brothers) and preists could not answer my questions. So I am still seeking.
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I had that issue too when I was young. I hated having so many questions and the people claiming to be teachers (pastors) not be able to answer questions I had, and I had many. That being said, not everything can be answered. I realized that after reading through the Bible. It is a wonderful collection of books and I believe it does answer all questions relating to salvation. That being said, it doesn't answer questions it isn't meant to answer. It isn't a science book, which some people try to use it as. I'm not saying that Moses was a stupid man or anything, but they did not even have a fraction of the information that we can get in a single page of the internet today, so of course Genesis 1:1 is simple. Imagine God trying to explain atoms and cells to someone who is living at a time where people classify bats as birds. So of course He laid it out simply for Moses to understand.

And I'm terribly sorry that my brain just made a mess all over my post..
 
workmx said:
Why? If god gave us logic, powerful/large brains and language, why can we not use them to expland our knowledge about the nature of god?

I ran into this argument while enrolled at my catholic high school 25 years ago. I am still waiting a reasonable answer.

What would the combination of all the above 23 traits give us? Noting that some are contradictory and others may be limited, due to the problem of evil and the Euthyphro dilemma.
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This is how they appear to you but they are not actually contradictory at all but different aspect of the one greater truth. I see no way the "problem of evil" limits this. And Plato's Euthyphro dilemma is not a problem Biblically (a false dilemma based on a false understanding of who/what God is) all that can be considered morally good is of God and this is God's will for us, His revealed preference (but having given man dominion, and a will to choose, man does not always do what is morally good)...

And God not making it so does not contradict because it is His nature to be true to Himself and He gave us the ability to choose and the dominion (which we yield to the world, the self, and the devils)...for example God says I set before you this day life and death, blessing and curse, choose life...but man (NOT ALL) incessantly chooses the way of death...
 
Huntingteckel said:
I had that issue too when I was young. I hated having so many questions and the people claiming to be teachers (pastors) not be able to answer questions I had, and I had many. That being said, not everything can be answered. I realized that after reading through the Bible. It is a wonderful collection of books and I believe it does answer all questions relating to salvation. That being said, it doesn't answer questions it isn't meant to answer. It isn't a science book, which some people try to use it as. I'm not saying that Moses was a stupid man or anything, but they did not even have a fraction of the information that we can get in a single page of the internet today, so of course Genesis 1:1 is simple. Imagine God trying to explain atoms and cells to someone who is living at a time where people classify bats as birds. So of course He laid it out simply for Moses to understand.

And I'm terribly sorry that my brain just made a mess all over my post..
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Not really! You said it well my brother...the Bible does not claim to contain all truth just that what it contains is true...even when Peter lied his lie was not the truth, but it was true that he lied....
 
Brother Paul said:
Not really! You said it well my brother...the Bible does not claim to contain all truth just that what it contains is true...even when Peter lied his lie was not the truth, but it was true that he lied....
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I know I had some other point but I apparently forgot it half way through.. :(
 
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