There's been an awful lot of sin going around here, must be a sin FULL place! {:3)> Shalom!
What is “sin?”
- Thread starter Aenon
- Start date
Not SO!
I read it also and agree with Rumely.
The Bible says that "there is none that is good, only God".
That is exactly why we must come to Christ as Savior so that He can be our redemption.
Not so again. Evil and sin are not one in the same.
Jesus said....."Forgive us of our SINS.......and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Sin can be forgiven but evil requires deliverance!.
the stuff that feels good today but messes up your life and makes you wish you hadn't
How we define "sin" is important. It helps us understand scripture.
Unfortunately man's traditional definitions of "sin" are ambiguous. Whilst we all fail to live perfect lives in this physical life, this imperfection is not defined as sin in scripture.
Instead, God has given us specific definitions which are the only ones to use to understand scripture.
God’s definitions of sin are basically covered by the following examples:
1: Mark 3:29 Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This sin will not be forgiven. Christians do not commit this sin.
2: John 16:9 Unbelief in Jesus. This is the sin the world is convicted of. Christians do not commit this sin either.
3: 1John5:17 “all unrighteousness is sin”. Christians are righteous in Christ so here we do not sin.
4: 1John3:4 “Sin is transgression of the law”. This is breaking the 10 commandments resulting in a death penalty for transgression.
Christians cannot be accused of sin here as we are not under the law of sin and death.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets free from the law of sin and death, (Rom 8:2). We're "not under the law" (Gal 5:18) as "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" (Rom 10:4)
Regarding the law of sin and death it should be noted that:
“whatever the law says it says to those who are under it” (Rom 3:19).
“the law was not made for a righteous person (Christians), but for…the ungodly and for sinners” (1Tim 1:9).
“where there is no law there is no transgression (SIN)” (Rom 4:15).
We know sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross.
And “Our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed” Rom 6:6.
Hence we see in 1Pet 4:1 “Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him. Rom 6:6), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) has ceased from sin”.
And note Rom 3:25: "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,"
It was only our past sins that were forgiven. That means there is no more forgiveness of sin after this as sin was finally dealt with.
And this confirms:
1Pet 4:1 that we have 'ceased from sin'.1John3:9 “Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed (Christ) remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God”.Rom 6:2 asks “How shall we that are dead to sin, live in it any longer?”.
And just as a reminder, we still see that Christians are not perfect in behavior, but, this is not defined as "sin" in scripture. And as children of God we are chastised for our wrong.
Finally, consider 1Pet 4:18 “If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear”.
Clearly there are 2 different groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous (and saved).
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner (unsaved).
Either we are righteous (in Christ) OR we are sinners. We can't be both.
Truly Jesus set us free from sin (John 8:36).
We have been justified by God so who can lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? Rom 8:33
Put simply, Christians "cannot sin" (1John 3:9).
Unfortunately man's traditional definitions of "sin" are ambiguous. Whilst we all fail to live perfect lives in this physical life, this imperfection is not defined as sin in scripture.
Instead, God has given us specific definitions which are the only ones to use to understand scripture.
God’s definitions of sin are basically covered by the following examples:
1: Mark 3:29 Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This sin will not be forgiven. Christians do not commit this sin.
2: John 16:9 Unbelief in Jesus. This is the sin the world is convicted of. Christians do not commit this sin either.
3: 1John5:17 “all unrighteousness is sin”. Christians are righteous in Christ so here we do not sin.
4: 1John3:4 “Sin is transgression of the law”. This is breaking the 10 commandments resulting in a death penalty for transgression.
Christians cannot be accused of sin here as we are not under the law of sin and death.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets free from the law of sin and death, (Rom 8:2). We're "not under the law" (Gal 5:18) as "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" (Rom 10:4)
Regarding the law of sin and death it should be noted that:
“whatever the law says it says to those who are under it” (Rom 3:19).
“the law was not made for a righteous person (Christians), but for…the ungodly and for sinners” (1Tim 1:9).
“where there is no law there is no transgression (SIN)” (Rom 4:15).
We know sin was dealt with once and for all on the cross.
And “Our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be destroyed” Rom 6:6.
Hence we see in 1Pet 4:1 “Therefore, since Christ suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind (our old man crucified with him. Rom 6:6), for he who has suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) has ceased from sin”.
And note Rom 3:25: "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,"
It was only our past sins that were forgiven. That means there is no more forgiveness of sin after this as sin was finally dealt with.
And this confirms:
1Pet 4:1 that we have 'ceased from sin'.1John3:9 “Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed (Christ) remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God”.Rom 6:2 asks “How shall we that are dead to sin, live in it any longer?”.
And just as a reminder, we still see that Christians are not perfect in behavior, but, this is not defined as "sin" in scripture. And as children of God we are chastised for our wrong.
Finally, consider 1Pet 4:18 “If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear”.
Clearly there are 2 different groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous (and saved).
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinner (unsaved).
Either we are righteous (in Christ) OR we are sinners. We can't be both.
Truly Jesus set us free from sin (John 8:36).
We have been justified by God so who can lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? Rom 8:33
Put simply, Christians "cannot sin" (1John 3:9).
NOPE!!!
John 8:36........
"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed".
That Scripture DOES NOT say that we are free from sin. That is a totally erroneouse statement.
The truth shall make you free. The truth is that Jesus Christ is the Messaih, the Savior of the world. HE is the truth. First we come to Him as our Savior. Then we go on with Him, we know by experience that we are free.
WE ARE FREE FROM THE PENALTY OF SIN.
Romans 8:33........
"Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."
That has nothing to do with whether bellievers sin or do not sin my friend.
The fact is that God's elect are justified sinners! A Christian is a forgiven sinner but a sinner none the less.
1 John 3:9.........
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; and he cannot sin because he is born of God".
John is NOT teaching perfection here at all. John is speaking here of HABITUAL practice of known sinful acts. The true believer's action (works, way of life) will always conform to the character of his true father who is either God or Satan. The person born of God will reflect this in is behavior.
Shall we read the verse you did not post from 1 John??????
1 John 1:8
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".
You see, even 2000 years ago, men were saying what you are saying. They...YOU seem to be claiming that you have no sin. Jesus had taught that those who owned up to their sin could find forgivness while those who were blind to their sin would be left burried in it.
John 9:41 ......
"Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.
Now THINK for a monent!
After salvation, Paul was moved to say in Romans 7:19
"For the good that I would do I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do".
Does that sound like Paul was perfect and did not sin????
Then you quote Romans 6:2.......
"God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein."
To say that we are DEAD to sin and make that a doctrine of "perfection" is very very wrong and you are mis-stateing what the Sceiptures are saying.
I mean no disrepect to you but it is obviouse that you are making the classic mistake of trying to force the Scriptures to mean what you want them to mean NOT what they are actually saying.
We are NEVER dead to sin as long as we are in this life. The literal translation of this verse is................
"How shall we who have died to sin".
Did you notice the distinction??? That means we died in the person of our substitu, Jesus Christ. We died to sin in Christ, but we are never dead to sin. Any honest, common thinking person able to go to the bathroom by themselves knows that he never reaches the place where he is dead to sin. He does IMO reach the place where he wants to live for God, BUT he then recognizes he still has that problem with his old nature of sin.
Consider John 8:34 speaking of "sin". If you sin you are a servant of sin. If Christ didn't set us free from sin as you suggest then are we still servants of sin?
Rom 6:7 says that "he that is dead is freed from sin". How did we become freed from sin? Jesus set us free, John 8:36.
Can you support with scripture this claim that Christians still sin but they are free from it's penalty?
What determines "HABITUAL" sin? What scripture is there to support this "HABITUAL" sin?
I have asked this of many people and they have never been able to answer what this level of sin is that determines habitual.
This is important to know what determines "HABITUAL" as how would you know whether you are saved or not if you don't know whether your behavior is habitually wrong or not?
Consider the context of 1John 1
verse 2: and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life,.
verse 3: That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Verse 6:
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness (without Christ), we lie, and do not the truth:
This is an evangelical context in 1John 1, declaring eternal life to those who are still walking in darkness (without Christ).
But if you still think 1John 1:8 refers to Christians, what "sin" does it refer to?
Is it transgression of the law (1John 3:4)?
Is it unbelief in Jesus, (John 16:9)?
Is it blasphemy?
Note the context of Rom 7.
Paul is speaking of the battle within mankind. He asks "who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He then thanks Christ Jesus for it. So Christians have been delivered. The context of Rom 7 is of being without Christ and then being delivered. He is not speaking of present tense Christians.
Yes, we have died (by faith) in the person of our substitute Jesus Christ.
I think you have missed my point that I'm speaking of the new creation in Christ. The imperfect physical that we see with our physical eyes, it is dead because of sin (Rom 10:8).
As for that old "sin nature"/walking in the flesh, it is gone in the new creation Christian.
Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,
Well, lets see what we can do here shall we..............
Of course we must always consider the context of all Scriptures and John 8:34 goes back to 8:32..........
"Ye shall know the TRUTH and the truth shall set you free".
What truth????
The whole doctrine of truth concerning Himself. The acceptance of the Word of God breaks the shackles of sin, of human tradition and denominational errors.
So then when we read the verse 34 we see the word......"COMMITTETH". Anyone can grasp that what Jesus just said is one who committs sin is the servant of that sin. NO BRAINER!
To do that means one must be "HABITUALLY" doing that sin. The person who lives in habitual sin, wilful sin being the habit of his life, must therefore be the slave of sin.
Romans 6:16-23
King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Peter 2:19
"of whom a man is overcome of the same is he brought into bondage".
John in chapter 8 used the illustration of contrasting son and slave in order to show the Jews that THEY were slaves to the system of religion under which they were living and were in fact in bondage to the rituals and laws and traditions of the Pharisees.
Then you asked how one is freed from sin?
I do not mean to sound disrepectful here, but honestly, this is learning that is taught in most Christian Sunday School programs and maybe you just need to get involved in one of them.
We are freed from the penalty of sin through the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Matthew Henry Commentary
Baptism teaches the necessity of dying to sin, and being as it were buried from all ungodly and unholy pursuits, and of rising to walk with God in newness of life. Unholy professors may have had the outward sign of a death unto sin, and a new birth unto righteousness, but they never passed from the family of Satan to that of God. The corrupt nature, called the old man, because derived from our first father Adam, is crucified with Christ, in every true believer, by the grace derived from the cross.
It is weakened and in a dying state, though it yet struggles for life, and even for victory. But the whole body of sin, whatever is not according to the holy law of God, must be done away, so that the believer may no more be the slave of sin, but live to God, and find happiness in his service.
THEN YOU ASKED............
What determines "HABITUAL" sin? What scripture is there to support this "HABITUAL" sin?
I have asked this of many people and they have never been able to answer what this level of sin is that determines habitual.
Come on now, be serious...please.
Let me ask you a question as an example.
YOU say you are a C hristian. OK.
Is adultery one of the commands that God said man can not do? YES IT IS.
Now, you are married (Assumption for example), and meet a young lady and begin an affair. It goes on and on and on. You do not stop even when you sit in church and hear the preacher condemn your action you KEEP RIGHT ON HABITUALLY COMMITTING THIS SIN.
YOU are committing adultery. You are committing a habitual sin.
What is more concerning to me is that you did not know that and WHY would you need Scripture to support what you know in your heart is wrong. Has not God written on your heart by the Holy Spirit the things we know to be true, right and righteouse!
And NO I did not misunderstand you.........you stated that the Christian can not sin!
I am saying that ALL people, Christians and non Christians commit sin but the Christian is forgiven of that sin because Christ paid the penalty of that sin where as the non-Christian must pay the penalty himself.
That is very wrong teaching and again, I do not want to sound disrepectful but in my heart, I believe you know that. IMO......no one can believe that they can not commit sin in this flesh we live in. Just the fact that you can say......"I DO NOT COMMITT SIN" reeks of pride and that is the sin that God hates the most according to Probverbs.
I do not agree with your assumption here, especially as it's not supported in scripture.
What is committing sin?
To offend in one point makes you guilty of all the law, James 2:10
As we can see there's no habitual sin here. Just one offense is too many, making you guilty of all the law as a result.
In fact if you rebuild the law in your life then that makes you a transgressor/sinner (Gal 2:18).
Hence to sin/transgress the law (1John 3:4) means you are under the law for righteousness (by obedience/works). For what the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
You will then be found guilty of all the law, even with just one offense.
This makes you a servant of sin.
This also is unbelief in Jesus because to be under the law for righteousness is to deny him.
Scriptures says we're freed from "sin", (Rom 6:7, John 8:36).
Can you provide scripture to support your claim that we're still in "sin" and that we're only set free from it's penalty?
You haven't really answered my question.
That example of adultery is very common amongst Christians and even endorsed by churches too. Consider the all too common modern day adultery as described in Mark 10:11,12. Under your gospel these Christians are lost.
To pursue this doctrine of "habitual sin" further, lets just consider whether your life is perfect. Are you living a perfect life in behavior? Is any of your failings a recurring one?
Actually it's God who says we "cannot sin", 1John 3:9. I'm just quoting His word.
And confirming God's word that we "cannot sin" is not reeking of pride as you claim. I suggest you read my earlier post again as your comment shows that you have not understood it.
Christians "cannot sin" only because we have Christ in us. And this is not speaking about what we see in the physical. That physical is dead because of sin anyway (Rom 8:10). It's our new creation in Christ that cannot sin, and this has nothing to do with our own efforts, hence there's no pride.
Penality of sin:
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:7
For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin.
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 3:23
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God.
We read in Romans 8:5, “They that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh;” and in verse 6, “To be carnally [or fleshly] minded is death”-which is spiritual death (the second death in hell) according to Romans 6:23; 8:6. “They that are in the flesh cannot please God” (Rom 8:8). So if the bent of a man’s life is after the flesh, then he is not of God. He pleases not God, but only himself. On the other hand, if the bent of a man’s life is after the Spirit, then he minds the things of the Spirit, and “to be spiritually minded is life and peace” in Christ (Rom 8:6).
Psalms 51:14..........
"Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation; Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness".
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die’ (Genesis 2:16–17).
The good news is that if we repent and believe the Gospel, Christ’s death on the cross fully paid the penalty for our sin and appeased God’s holy wrath against our sin. Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us and we are reconciled to God (Romans 5:17–21). God’s holiness is thus not compromised in our salvation. He can justly forgive us our sins because the penalty for them has been paid in full by Jesus. As the Apostle John affirms, ‘If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness’ (1 John 1:9).