What faith is and what it is not.

"We grow in faith that God is good "
The very fact that God saves us let alone gives us breath each day before we were saved proves God is good.
and I believe people receive from God unlooked for and undeserved mercies from God long before they were saved .
Agreed. A working brain can deduce that God is good. But our flesh has trust issues. Perhaps if we were in heaven we wouldn't. As a result we can say that Job's faith in God was at its greatest when he was at his worst point in life.

See this is the heresy that needs to be rooted out of the church. We say a man of faith is a man who walks in victory over all and can do any miracle. When scripture actually says....man can do nothing without God...if we have God we can do anything...meaning if we have God and '''anything'' is not done...it is His will....and we need to have faith in Him.

We need to understand that God is like a rich man trying to find a bride. A bride that wants him for who He is, not his riches. God does not want to throw ''riches / miracles'' at us if He can avoid it!! He is like a rich man that wants to see that bride cross the desert for him expecting nothing in return but love.

Jews were not a bride that could do that. Jews needed promises. Jews needed to see the red sea part. God knew this. God expects more from us Christians.
 
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Such as a mountain of dept
Such as sickness or stress or unenployed etc. Habbits can be a mountain.
Please kinow that when Jesus said anything - it was said on purpose and for a purpose and that purpose is always GODS PURPOSE.
A mountain can be symbolic. I don't think that is the point Jesus was making though. If it was He would have said ''Faith of a mustard seed can move mountains in your life''. He said ''Faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain''. He did also not say ''Faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain and faith of a full grown mustard tree, ten mountains''.
 
But we are also called to enter into the Holy place. That too requires faith but a maturing faith.
What faith exactly does this require?

I hate all blurriness with 'faith'. Please clarify exactly what faith you are referring to. Faith that God is? Faith that God is good? Faith that Jesus is God? Faith that we are washed clean and can enter the holy place? Faith in faith? Then, how does this 'faith' mature?

That puts off the old man and puts on Christ as it were or else puts of daily cloths and puts on the rainment of the priesthood as it were .
We cannot enter the Holy place in our old garments and we must also wash our feet (walk) and our hands (work) before we can so enter.

We must wash ourselves or we are washed by Jesus? Our faith washes us?

In the Holy place we have no 'natural light' but the light of the Holy Spirit as of the 7 branched lamp and the Word of God as of the shew bread.
here we walk and see by faith those things that are needful. Here we pray more for our bretheren than we do for ourselves and learn to pl,ease and serve God .
Here it is not so much MY father but OUR father ...
here we start to learn to pray and pray continually as exemplified by the alter of insence.

But what of the Holy of Holies ?
We are called to "boldly enter " But that does not mean foolishly as little children playing.
I would still argue that only ONE can enter in . But now not just the high priest but that "one" that the Lord spoke of in John 17 "that they maybe one even as ......"
For to pray in Jesus name is to have the same mind as the lord in thea matter nd to be gathered togther in my name is not so much to be geographically in the same place but in the other two also .
In that unity then we boldly can and may and do enter.
That too takes a growing faith.
Both to ask and to receive as much to enter.,
in Christ
gerald
You need to try talk plainly on faith. Talking so mystically simply adds to the blur and confusion. It sounds like you are saying we need faith to enter God's presence and that that faith grows. We have entered into eternal life. We don't need to have faith to enter God's presence like a stranger walking on thin ice. Hence the ''boldly'' enter. I wouldn't say it takes any faith for a Christian to enter God's presence. The neighbors kid (Jew and gentile) needs faith and to grow in faith in my Father. The adopted kid has faith.
 
What faith exactly does this require?

I hate all blurriness with 'faith'. Please clarify exactly what faith you are referring to. Faith that God is? Faith that God is good? Faith that Jesus is God? Faith that we are washed clean and can enter the holy place? Faith in faith? Then, how does this 'faith' mature?



We must wash ourselves or we are washed by Jesus? Our faith washes us?

You need to try talk plainly on faith. Talking so mystically simply adds to the blur and confusion. It sounds like you are saying we need faith to enter God's presence and that that faith grows. We have entered into eternal life. We don't need to have faith to enter God's presence like a stranger walking on thin ice. Hence the ''boldly'' enter. I wouldn't say it takes any faith for a Christian to enter God's presence. The neighbors kid (Jew and gentile) needs faith and to grow in faith in my Father. The adopted kid has faith.

There is One faith and it is used in many ways.
Yes we need faith to enter into Gods presence
Yes we need to faith to activate Gods promises
Yes we need faith to do anything in Christ.

There is NOT several types of faith
There is strong faith and weak fiath
Faith that stand and faith that crumbles under pressure from being weak.

Gentile is any one who is seperated from God. We once were a gentile but once saved we are adopted into His family and no more a gentile then the man in the moon wrote the bible.

Faith matures by feeding it with the word of God.
The blood of Christ is the only thing that washed us clean.
Faith is meant to be a life style.
 
You are. You are assuming Abraham had faith (noun), like faith alone is something one can have that makes God happy. God could not give two hoots about how positive or full of faith we feel at any point of the day. God is only concerned with how much faith we have in Him. Unfortunately for us ...trials and tribulations on earth are the only thing that can develop / reveal this faith that God wants.
Agreed. They all grew in faith in God. Not faith that God exists. Not faith that God can move a mountain.

Because of all the faith ''nonsense'' today we need to qualify its meaning / intention every time it is used.

Regarding the underlined, he walked by faith in God. Not faith that God exists. Not faith that God can move a mountain. Those were / are givens when one is convinced they are liaising with God of the universe as Heb 11:6 says we 'must'.



Lot 'walking by sight' could be 1. worse case scenario ...wanting God to jump on his lap like an atheist or 2. not believing God is good until God actually / literally does something good....on par with Jews needing to see a promised land of milk and honey or tenfold return on tithe.

He had fear because he did not have faith in God.

As I have already proved ,that accordign to what faith "IS" all men have a measure of faith. God is pleased when our faith is in HIM.
My definition as to what faith "IS" is from the letter to the hewbrews.That is the only definition I will accept.Or any one should.
Having laid it out in the very beginning of this post as to what the scriptures say faith "IS" and then laiud out my u nderstandin g of it for all to see. Then I am not obliged to repeat it .
As to what faith IS then ALL men have faith and that faith operates in the same way in all cases.
Faith IN God then works or come or operates in the same way for it is the same 'faith' .
I do not need to look or find faith ,I have by Gods gift already had it and do .
Faith is a gift of God to ALL . and those who mock and ridicule mens faith in God do but undermine their own.Which is in the world or themselves and their own 'good' works.
As to walking by sight . You make it too complicated.

When Abraham said to Lot if you go that way ,I will go this way and if you go trhis way I will go that way . To Abraham it did not matter which way he went as he was walking by faith and God was with him whichever way he went.
Lot looked and saw the 'prosperity(?) or fruitfulness of one way which was more than the other . So he chose accordign to what his eyes saw and his reasoning told him. Thus he walked by his own sight and reasoning.
Much then the same as Eve "SAW the tree that it was good to eat " and she reasoned thus "it would make her wise"
Lot then pitched his tent towards Sodom. The next time you hear of him he is captured WITH the kings of the plain and the next time you hear of him he was living among them and in the city .
As he walked by sight he was then blind to the danger he was in as he was also unaware of what "God was about to do"
Abraham who walked by faith was alert to the danger Lot was in and God told him what he was about to do and was then able to intercede on his behalf. Lot was to all intents and purposes asleep/.
I have always had a measure of faith .It simply was not in God .
My faith in God came when I heard and finally understood what God had been saying all along.
Faith is not a feeling.
If im sick as a dog but needs must go to work I still stand at the bus stop in faith believing the bus will come because I have confidence that the bus company will can and does keep its word /promise (most of the time).

When you know the truth the truth shall make you free.
I make no boast that I understand all the Word of God perfectly ,Though some parts I do.
Yet this I also know .That ANY truth God has led me or any one to understand .Even from the beginning as a "little children" Will not,does not,cannot contradict any other truth I may come to know later on. But each truth of God will and does dovetail perfectly with the other .
In that regard then any truth if it si truth that I do not understand yet will dovetail and while my mind may not grasp why it is true as yet the Spiritr of truth will bare witness to the truth of it .For by Him "we know the spirit fo error "
I once took 10 years to understand a truth that in my spirit I knew was true but my mind could not see it in scripture (at the time) or understand it .
I did not then reject it but as it is written of others "hid it in their heart" untill I did .
The intellect in of and by itself is a false light.
But I see nowhere in the scriptures where I am encouraged to disregard my mind or leave it on the train.
What the scriptures teach me is that my mind has to be renewed by the Word of God and the Spirit of God and every thought is to be brought into subjection to the mind of Christ. Indeed we are to "let this mind be in you as it was in Christ " and in another place we are to be" of the same mind"
So that even as they who are joined ot the Lord are of ONE Spirit .So also are we to become of the same mind .That is to understand the scriptures according to the mind of the Spirit "who knoweth the mind of God"
Thus if we are called to be "in the unity of the faith" (Eph) then we must by the definition of what faith "IS" and how it comes to be of the same understanding of scripture.

in Christ
gerald
 
We can move ten mountains?

Moving a single mountain is perhaps greater then all the miracles Jesus and Moses ever did. So I am curious as to what exactly you have in mind. Don't you see how silly this teaching is? Jesus could just as easily have said ''faith of a grain of sand can move a galaxy''. Jesus was making a point apart from the size of ones faith. His point is that God can do anything and if we have His ear, we have His ear. John 9:31 tells us who has His ear. We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. (Not the person with more faith).

If the Lord was simply saying our faith need only be as small as a mustard seed .Then he would not then have shown how it then grew to be the greatest tree of all herbs .
The simple implication is that our faith is expected to grow from being a very small and insignifiicant thing to that which can do as listed in the book of Hebrews.
John and Peter raised a lame man to his feet who then went leaping and jumping and praising God. How? By "faith in Jesus name "
Im sorry not many have that faith in Jesus name to do the same work .
In fact many dont believe it is possible at all. as those days are past . Unbelief then.
You assume that a mountain is a mountain ;geographically .But mountains mean other things than geographical mountains .
The greatest miracle surely is raising the dead?
Yet Jesus said greater things shall ye do....
He was limited in his ministry on earth in the flesh to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" We are called to go out into all the world and do likewise.
I have faith in God.
I have yet to raise the dead or make the lame to walk .
You say we have Gods ear? I wonder if He has ours?
Faith can move a galaxy .it once stopped the sun in its tracks .
For the man of God knew that the time he was in demanded it .For Gods work to be completed .
Jesus was dying in the garden of Gethsemane his" spirit was willing but the flesh was weak" and he knew "that the arm of flesh would fail him"
So he warned his disciples to pray lest they fall into temptation.
They slept he stayed awake and prayed with great groanings and tears and in that he feared God he was heard and was saved from death.
So when the challenge came in the early hours of the morning .All the discipl,es who slept fled whiloe the Lord stood alone and was able to face what was coming . For now it was not His will that was working in Him but the Fathers.
For the will of man could not endure what had to be endured and even though his will was to do the will fo He who sent Him. he nevertheless submitted his will to Gods so that it was the will of God that worked within him both to to will and to do what was needed to be done .

in Christ
gerald
 
You are. You are assuming Abraham had faith (noun), like faith alone is something one can have that makes God happy. God could not give two hoots about how positive or full of faith we feel at any point of the day. God is only concerned with how much faith we have in Him. Unfortunately for us ...trials and tribulations on earth are the only thing that can develop / reveal this faith that God wants.
Agreed. They all grew in faith in God. Not faith that God exists. Not faith that God can move a mountain.

Because of all the faith ''nonsense'' today we need to qualify its meaning / intention every time it is used.

Regarding the underlined, he walked by faith in God. Not faith that God exists. Not faith that God can move a mountain. Those were / are givens when one is convinced they are liaising with God of the universe as Heb 11:6 says we 'must'.



Lot 'walking by sight' could be 1. worse case scenario ...wanting God to jump on his lap like an atheist or 2. not believing God is good until God actually / literally does something good....on par with Jews needing to see a promised land of milk and honey or tenfold return on tithe.

He had fear because he did not have faith in God.

People who jump to their own conclusions never arrive at the truth .

I did not say nor ever have that all men have faith IN GOD.
What I have consistantly said is that according to what faith "IS" as defined in Hebrews all men have a measure of faith .
and need not go looking for faith or getting faith.They have a measure of faith already . For God has given to all a measurfe of faith to profit withall.
and I have already proved it to be so. earlier.
Faith IN God is what pleases God therefore . Not faith in your own good works (Cain for instance) or faith in gods that are no gods or in idols and false prophets and apostles.
Abraham then always had faith but not in God and when he believed God and to him it was COUNTED as righteousness . his faith was weak and his commitment and obedience partial in the same measure as his faith.
Eventually he walked before God in Holyness

in Christ
gerald
 
There is One faith and it is used in many ways.
Yes we need faith to enter into Gods presence
Yes we need to faith to activate Gods promises
Yes we need faith to do anything in Christ.

There is NOT several types of faith
There is strong faith and weak fiath
Faith that stand and faith that crumbles under pressure from being weak.

Gentile is any one who is seperated from God. We once were a gentile but once saved we are adopted into His family and no more a gentile then the man in the moon wrote the bible.

Faith matures by feeding it with the word of God.
The blood of Christ is the only thing that washed us clean.
Faith is meant to be a life style.

Yes we are meant to walk by faith. Just like we have faith in gravity and not pie in the sky. There is only a weak faith in gravity among those who don't have working brains. The faith a Christian grows in cannot ever be something like trusting God for a broom stick today and a farm tomorrow. A Christian can only grow in faith in God. As problems hit us we keep our faith in Him. As has been discussed with Gerald, faith in God can also be a given as a working brain can comprehend God is good. But since we are on earth where problems hit us daily, this is not always easy for our old mind to grasp.
 
1. People who jump to their own conclusions never arrive at the truth .

2. I did not say nor ever have that all men have faith IN GOD.
3. What I have consistantly said is that according to what faith "IS" as defined in Hebrews all men have a measure of faith . and need not go looking for faith or getting faith. They have a measure of faith already . For God has given to all a measurfe of faith to profit withall. and I have already proved it to be so. earlier.
4. Faith IN God is what pleases God therefore . Not faith in your own good works (Cain for instance) or faith in gods that are no gods or in idols and false prophets and apostles.
5. Abraham then always had faith but not in God and when he believed God and to him it was COUNTED as righteousness . his faith was weak and his commitment and obedience partial in the same measure as his faith.
Eventually he walked before God in Holyness
1. There are certain lines from you that made me assume that.
2. I have not accused you of that.
3. Agreed. That measure of faith we are given enables us to believe with certainty that a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is Lord 1 Cor 12:3.
4. Agreed. That is all I have been trying to say too.
5. Now here we need further clarity. There is a blur on faith created. You just said faith in God is all that pleases God and now you leave the door open by saying Abraham had ''faith but not in God and when he believed God it was counted as righteousness''. What do you mean 'he believed God'? He believed God was going to have him kill his son? He believed God was going to stop him? He believed there was a God in the sky that spoke to him? Believing God is not necessarily faith in God. We need to properly understand the painfully simple scenario at that time. Abraham knew there was a God. Abraham knew God can do anything. But most importantly Abraham chose to put his faith in God as He knew that God was good. By doing that Abraham showed God that he approves of what is good. It was this approval of what is good and trust / obedience to the will of this good God that earned him righteousness. If Abraham thought God was evil and refused, that would also have earned him righteousness.
 
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A mountain can be symbolic. I don't think that is the point Jesus was making though. If it was He would have said ''Faith of a mustard seed can move mountains in your life''. He said ''Faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain''. He did also not say ''Faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain and faith of a full grown mustard tree, ten mountains''.

Of course the question can then be.........."Who do you know that needs to move amountain?":eek:
 
Yes we are meant to walk by faith. Just like we have faith in gravity and not pie in the sky. There is only a weak faith in gravity among those who don't have working brains. The faith a Christian grows in cannot ever be something like trusting God for a broom stick today and a farm tomorrow. A Christian can only grow in faith in God. As problems hit us we keep our faith in Him. As has been discussed with Gerald, faith in God can also be a given as a working brain can comprehend God is good. But since we are on earth where problems hit us daily, this is not always easy for our old mind to grasp.

Amen brother!

Living life is a fulltime operation isn't it?
 
There is One faith and it is used in many ways.
Yes we need faith to enter into Gods presence
Yes we need to faith to activate Gods promises
Yes we need faith to do anything in Christ.

There is NOT several types of faith
There is strong faith and weak fiath
Faith that stand and faith that crumbles under pressure from being weak.

Gentile is any one who is seperated from God. We once were a gentile but once saved we are adopted into His family and no more a gentile then the man in the moon wrote the bible.

Faith matures by feeding it with the word of God.
The blood of Christ is the only thing that washed us clean.
Faith is meant to be a life style.

Agreed. It is important to realize, however, that there are different kinds
of faith, but only one that is truly "saving faith".
We might call these ki9nds of faith names...............

James 2:14-17 describes........ "DEAD FAITH".
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? uIf a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, vone of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Is only an INTELLECTUAL faith!
a. In one's mind, he or she knows the doctrine of salvation
b. But they have never really submitted themselves to God and
trusted in Jesus for salvation
c. They know the right "words", but they do not back up their
words with their "works"!


James 2:18-19............"DEMONIC FAITH!
"But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! "

The Bible says that even demons have faith! WHAT KIND OF FAITH DO "DEMONS" HAVE?
1. We saw that the man with "dead faith" was "touched only in his
intellect"
2. The demons are "touched also in their emotions" (note that they
"believe and tremble")
3. This is one step above a "dead faith" - it involves both INTELLECT and EMOTIONS.


Then James describes DYNAMIC FAITH in verses (20-26)........
"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. "
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1. Other passages say that such faith is based upon the Word of God, such as Romans 10:17.
2. Dynamic faith involves the WHOLE MAN
a. DEAD faith touches only the intellect
b. DEMONIC faith involves both the mind and the emotions
c. DYNAMIC faith involves the intellect, the emotions, AND the WILL!
1) The MIND understands the truth
2) The HEART desires and rejoices in the truth
3) The WILL acts upon the truth
3. True, saving faith, then, LEADS TO ACTION
a. It is not intellectual contemplation
b. It is not emotionalism
c. It is that which leads to obedience in doing good works
 
* Faith is just believing that what God says He will surely do.

* I was part of a children's Bible Club ministry (of American origin) at one time, and we sang a chorus, with the words:-

'Faith is just believing,
That what God said, He'll do,
Abram went and lived in a tent
For God's Word he knew was true.'


* Simple, child-like, but true

* Concerning the Kingdom of God, our Lord said:-
'Verily I say unto you,
Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child
shall in no wise enter therein.'

(Luk 18:17)

Praise His Name!

:)

PS:
I was initially made aware of my need of a Saviour,
and brought to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ,
through the ministry of a visiting American evangelist, too,
so I guess I have much to thank America for.
 
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* Faith is just believing that what God says He will surely do.

But that is not the faith Abraham had. God told Abraham to kill his son / it was time for his son to die... and that is not what happened. He did not 'surely do' it. Abraham believed in God's goodness and wisdom. He didn't just believe God, he believed in God. He is an example of faith to us all because His faith in God's goodness was so high he could be trusted to obey despite the extremely obvious evil, task.
 
But that is not the faith Abraham had. God told Abraham to kill his son / it was time for his son to die... and that is not what happened. He did not 'surely do' it. Abraham believed in God's goodness and wisdom. He is an example of faith to us all because His faith in God's goodness was so high he could be trusted with such an extremely obvious appearance of evil, task.

Hi @KingJ,

Yes, I agree, KingJ. He also believed that God would raise His Son from the dead, which he did indeed in a figure - for the promises God had made to him, necessitated his Son to live.

'By faith Abraham,
when he was tried,
offered up Isaac:
and he that had received the promises
offered up his only begotten son,
Of whom it was said,
That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Accounting that God was able to raise him up,
even from the dead;
from whence also he received him in a figure.'

(Heb 11:17-19)

However living in a tent, was indeed part of the faith he had in God's Word. He lived within the land promised to him by God, as a stranger, a sojourner, in a tent, having no continuing city, (Heb. 13:14) for he looked for a city, whose builder and maker was God (Heb.11:10).

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Hi @KingJ,

Yes, I agree, KingJ. He also believed that God would raise His Son from the dead, which he did indeed in a figure - for the promises God had made to him, necessitated his Son to live.

'By faith Abraham,
when he was tried,
offered up Isaac:
and he that had received the promises
offered up his only begotten son,
Of whom it was said,
That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Accounting that God was able to raise him up,
even from the dead;
from whence also he received him in a figure.'

(Heb 11:17-19)

However living in a tent, was indeed part of the faith he had in God's Word. He lived within the land promised to him by God, as a stranger, a sojourner, in a tent, having no continuing city, (Heb. 13:14) for he looked for a city, whose builder and maker was God (Heb.11:10).

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Agreed! Abraham believed in the Resurrection!!!
 
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