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What Does "torah Observant" Really Mean

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by JohnC, Aug 22, 2014.

  1. SO... First off....
    I have no desire to wade through 13 pages of "We are not under the law".... If that's all you have to contribute - please don't put it here.... Trust me... You don't have to convince me of this....

    I am specifically interested in how Messianic Jews Actually interpret this phrase.... What does it really mean to be "Torah Observant"..... I am not interested in how Gentile Christians *THINK* messianic Jews interpret this phrase....

    I am also looking for concrete statements.. Please refrain from hand waving with statements like "Well... it means We observe the Torah"

    How do YOU interpret the meaning of "Torah Observant" to carry through in your life.....
  2. I'm not Jewish that I know of, so I guess that means by default I can't be "Messianic Jew" but... you knew it was coming... I look at it like this: the word Torah just means teaching. There are a LOT of things in the Torah that are helpful in this life, not just spiritual, and I thinkt that gets lost these days. The laws of hygiene are the law in hospitals today, not because of the word of God, but because they found germs, it only took them until the assassination of Garfield. Though the explanation isn't present as to WHY something is wrong - that's where faith in God comes in - but it's true. Look at the law concerning sexual conduct. If people weren't so promiscuous they wouldn't suffer from a myriad of diseases, even decades later. Proverbs alone is responsible for many MANY successes in life. After I learn my horrible lesson about debt, I really appreciated "own no man anything", Pro 22:7, Rom 13:8. Anyhow, I believe the entire word of God is useful, not just spiritual. Some things supercede others, but keeping the law can be useful in life, not just a prison to the spiritually inept :) I love the Passover Seder as done by the Jews. I learned so much, but they just don't get it... very sad. Anyhow, thanks for listening.
    dUmPsTeR likes this.
  3. Thanks.... I have been recently thinking along the same lines.....

    For example - the food preparation laws basically mirror Torah for dealing with "Unclean things" that fall into food or pots, ceremonial washing, and for cooking food properly....

    Another example I have noticed lately.... It turns out that I have many friends who have health problems that MASSIVELY flare up whenever they eat pork.... For example - if you are prone to gout, gallbladder problems, joint problems, or cholesterol related issues - and you want to make it flare up... Go eat some pork....
  4. One thing I can say after having many dealings with and lots of fellowship with many Messianic and otherwise Jewish Christians is that it is not meant to mean they obey the Torah (for one reason because there is no longer any sacrifices and oblations, Christ has come)...but they do the best they can at remaining Jewish culturally and even (in different ways) honor the appointed times of the Lord but without dount I have only met two who so not accept that they are sinners saved by grace through faith. These both believe one must become religiously Jewish in order to be saved. I do not know if that helps and if any here are among this rank please correct me if I am wrong. Talmudic Rabbinical Jews however who call themselves "Torah Observant" are however meaning they do observe it only as defined through the Oral Law (the Talmud)....IMO they all fall severely short.

  5. If you look at the dietary laws and leave out the religion you're left with a healthy diet for the most part.
    Y'all discussed pork already.
    Fish that don't have fins and scales and "little creatures that live in shallow water and to all creatures that live in deep water" would be considered bottom feeders and scavengers for the most part. Oysters live in their own excrement.
    The birds mentioned are scavengers as well.
    No one had to tell me not to touch a rat more than once.
  6. I am Messianic, but I've never claimed to be a Messianic Jew; simply Messianic. I am not "under the Law," as only those who are unbelievers are "under the Law"; however, I am Torah observant. By saying I am Torah observant, I intend that I obey Torah as much as I possibly can, according to how I and my synagogue understand Torah. This means that I eat the only food as described as food and commanded in the Bible. I observe Sabbath and worship with my community on Sabbath. I have had my bat mitzvah. I do a miqvah as often as I can, but that is limited because of the area where I live.

    I believe that I should observe the written Torah but observe the oral Torah in a limited way, as did Messiah. I believe that the Bible -- the WHOLE Bible -- has complete authority, but the oral torah is not authoritative. Torah, the first five books of the Bible, was completely about Messiah and His coming, and so is the rest of the Bible. I believe He is the coming King, the Prince of Peace, the Risen L-rd, the High Priest Who is ever interceding.

    While I observe Torah, doing all I can in the absence of the Temple (and while not living in The Land), I am not saved by my works; I am saved only by the work of my Messiah. Nothing I do or don't do can improve my place in the world or improve it over those who do not specifically observe Torah. From what I understand, many Christians observe more Torah than they realize.
    JG27_chili likes this.
  7. I am very surprised that more have not answered your questions. Sorry!

    Am I a sinner saved by grace? Absolutely! There is no salvation in any other than our Messiah, Y'shua-Jesus, and there hever has been any salvation in any other than Him for all time, past, present, and future. However, we do NOT EVER, need to become Jews to be saved. Following Torah chances no one into a Jew. Further, I've been bat mitzvahed, but being bat mitzvahed does not make one a Jew.

    I go to synagogue that was begun @ 1992 or so (??) by a Jew who loves Messiah and is still among the talmidim there. Initially, there were more Jews in the tiny synagogue, but in time, Gentiles began to come, myself included (@ 1995; continuous attendance in @ 1998). Today, we have @ 225 members with a ratio of probably 4:6 Jews to Gentiles. Among the talmidim, the ratio is about the same.

    We have only one pastor: Messiah Y'shua-Jesus. The talmidim are equal in leadership under Him.

    Gotta go eat ice cream with my husband....
  8. Corrections:
    Anyway, if you could read the above with all the errors, you are a genious.

    We follow the biblical calendar which is an education all by itself. Unless it is actually studied, not merely observed, one has no clue of the biblical story of the Groom and Bride. Amazing. We follow all the biblical yearly festivals and fasts, which teach the Bible in amazing ways, reteaching the old and teaching the young. We learn, through them, that G-d and obeying Him is all that matters.

    Did we answer your questions? Did we leave anything uncovered?
  9. Great explanation Sis....exactly what I was trying to express...grace covers all the rest because Messiah has come and the pleasing atonement has been made! Shalom in His Holy name....

    TezriLi likes this.
  10. So... One of the reasons I was asking this.....

    It struck me - over and over and over - God says "If you follow these commands, judgements and statutes, you will live"

    Are we perhaps overlooking something important that is useful for Christians as well.... That when we are having problems with Disease and Death in our society.... perhaps, instead of begging for NEW revelation - we need to look to God's message that has already been revealed....

    How many times do we pray and pray and pray - for God to alleviate some consequence of a "Breaking a Law" in the Torah.... when if we could come to respect the utility of the revelation that was already given - we may not have to go through as much suffering....

    For example... My buddy with Gout is also preacher.... If he could somehow bring himself to cut off the Pork - he is gout flare ups would probably reduce by well over 50%.... Cutting out the pork doesn't make him more holy... but it would result in a lot less avoidable suffering - and that would glorify God....

  11. You have a great point. A very legitimate point. The One Who made us knows how He made us, how to make our bodies work, and how to keep them healthy. All He is asking of us is obedience to the One we call "L-rd."

    The thing is, John, that we thought for millennia that we were just following G-d's rules, in order to be obedient, in order to love Him, in order to say, "You are L-rd." Only in recent years have we learned the health benefits of kosher eating.
  12. I am thinking: I have a very serious inherited disease. In 1995, I was told that I had 6 months to 20 years to live after diagnosis. They had diagnosed me a couple years earlier, @ 1993, and kept this news from me until I got angry with them and demanded to know why they were asking this teetotaler, upon every doctor visit, how much I was drinking (and worse, they verbally accused me of being a secret drinker and drug-user). So 1993. 2003. I should, according to them, be dead. I have read more recently that the life expectancy is up to 15 years. I should be SUPER-dead!

    My husband and I started obeying Torah with regard to food in @ 1999.
  13. t struck me - over and over and over - God says "If you follow these commands, judgements and statutes, you will live"

    Are we perhaps overlooking something important that is useful for Christians as well

    Yes of course, but what is not saying is that by it you will be saved or gain "eternal life" it speaks of bios life not zoas...see Deuteronomy 28....the promises of Covenant at Horeb were all about physical things abundance or lack, health or illness, the land, etc...
    TezriLi likes this.
  14. In the back of your mind - you have to be thinking... I wonder if switching to a "More" Torah observant life somehow changed the dynamics of the condition.....
    TezriLi likes this.
  15. May the LORD rebuke any spirits that would come against you T and may you prosper and be in health as your soul prospers

    brother Paul
    TezriLi likes this.
  16. No, JohnC. I'm sorry! :\ But perhaps I should attribute my kosher diet to living longer?... (Thinking....) No, more likely it's the fact that I changed my diet again after starting my kosher diet and lost over 100 pounds. Now, I have changed it again, cutting out more stuff that is unhealthy, and now, I am feeling better than I have in years. For a little over a week, I have actually had energy, which I rarely had through out the years I have been Torah observant. Let's see:
    • 1998 December: Kicked out of the church; became Messianic -- still sick
    • @ 1999: started eating a kosher diet -- still sick
    • Mid-2010 - mid 2012 -- changed diet and lost 100 pounds; still sick.
    • Every late July - early September, @ 2010 - 2014 -- violently ill, thinking I am finally dying
    • THIS year, August 2014, a dietitian changed my diet again, and I have been Feeling' GOOD! for over a week.

    Sorry -- it has nothing to do with being Torah-observant. :)
  17. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!!!!
  18. @Brother Paul: Don't think me to be too silly -- I just had to come back and say thank you once again. :)
  19. And now I woke from sleep at 4:11 am and cannot get tired again so I will have a snack and try again but first I will pray for you...my wife Salome and I are so blessed, Dad always hears our prayers...I will ask her to join me and say a prayer for you...
    TezriLi likes this.
  20. I often awaken at this time to have a few nuts, check in here, and study my Bible a bit. Saw your note. You are so kind! Thank you for praying, and please say thank you to your wife. G-d is good! He certainly is answering prayer!!

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