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Watch And Be Ready For What???

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Phoneman777, Jan 4, 2015.

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  1. #1 Phoneman777, Jan 4, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
    In 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Paul gives to the church a standing order to "watch and be sober" for the "day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night" so that "that day should not overtake (us) as a thief".

    NOW, PLEASE LAY ASIDE POPULAR IDEAS AND PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AND
    THINK:

    If the "day of the Lord" which "comes as a thief in the night" is not the Rapture, then for what reason does Paul admonish the church to "watch and be sober" for it? If we are already safely in heaven and safely in the arms of Jesus when that day comes, it will be absolutely unnecessary for us to watch and be sober for that day because it will be absolutely impossible for us to be overtaken by it! Therefore, the imposition of such a standing order would be the extreme height of stupidity, and far be it from the great Apostle Paul to ever be associated with anything less than brilliance.

    However, if the "day of the Lord" which "comes as a thief in the night" is indeed the Rapture, then the associated inescapable destruction that both Paul and Peter says will accompany it (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3; Peter 3:10-12) obliterates any chance for a "second chance" that Jesuit Futurism affords those who are "left behind". In other words, such a standing order would make perfect sense.

    It is my sincere prayer and hope that the Holy Spirit will lead those who disagree to search the Scriptures, not to affirm what they already believe is truth, as was in the case of the author of Futurism, Jesuit Francisco Ribera, who was blinded by Satan for doing so, but to believe God's truth as it is found in Scripture to which the Holy Spirit desires to lead and guide us. Amen.
     
  2. Correction: 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6 in the first paragraph and 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the third paragraph.
     
  3. We are told to be vigilant.... Specifically warned over and over and over.... Why are WE told to be vigilant... Why are Believers commanded to be vigilant? parable after parable... Command after command... Jesus would not have repeated the warning over and over and over if it wasn't important.. The parable of the Wise and Foolish virgins in Matt 25 is kinda scary in that regard... HALF of the 10 virgins were not prepared... They were fully QUALIFIED.. Virgins, Betrothed, AND taken into the chamber of waiting - but did not enter and were cast out...

    Honestly, after reading Amos 5:20 - The Day of the Lord isn't something I want to be around to watch.... See, we have all these fun songs about how wonderful and glorious of a day it will be.... but it is a day of darkness, wrath, and sorrow on earth...

    Since we are going to wander down rabbit holes....

    I am of the opinion that there are 2 separate events.... One event seems to crossreference to Isaiah 26:20 which Jesus seems to mention in John 14, as well as the parable of the Wise and Foolish virgins in Matt 25...

    and we really don't seem to have any sort of clarity to how much or little time occurs between them.....

    For example - Enoch was removed from Earth about 600 years before The Flood... Elijah was removed from The Northern Kingdom about 120 years before the Assyrian captivity

    We know that Satan has possession of the Earth and has authority over it's kingdoms... Ref Daniel as well as the Temptation of Christ in Matt 4, Luke 4, and Mark 1... It would not have been a temptation for Jesus to bow before Satan if Jesus knew Satan could not deliver...

    We also know that it's not till Revelation 5 that the "Lion of the Tribe of Judah" - the "Lamb as though he was slain" prevailed to take the scroll and start opening it's seals... This scroll is the "Deed" to Earth... but He does not RECEIVE ownership of Earth until Revelation 11 - after all the seals are opened...

    Just a wild conjecture.... "The Rapture" - removing all these people from Satan's kingdoms while they are still in his possession - is what precipitates Satan's attack in heaven which finally results in Satan and his compatriots being expelled from heaven in Revelation 12...

    This special event is said to occur in "The twinkling of an eye".. Literally the time it takes for light to pass through the cornea and fluid to the nerve in the eye.. If you do the calculation with the speed of light and this distance - it's almost literally the smallest increment of time that exists.... But the opening of all the seals, the pouring out of the bowls - there are several defined time periods within them... Months and perhaps years could elapse....

    Anyway, fun to wander... We don't really have clarity for what will shake out....

    Take away - Be vigilant! Be ready to present yourself before The King at any moment... Do not be so busy "doing the business of the king" that you neglect to present yourself before him....

    Thanks
     
    Roads and Silk say Amen and like this.
  4. For one watching and praying, that day will not come unaware...

    Luke 21:34 (KJV)
    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares.

    Unless you remain in your sins and out of fellowship with God, then He'll be like a thief...

    1 Thessalonians 5:4 (KJV)
    But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
     
    Roads likes this.
  5. Thanks for your thoughts, brother, but I was hoping for someone to address the "when" aspect of the question on the thread table: when is this "day of the Lord" Paul gives the church a standing order to watch for, so that we "should not be overtaken by that day"?

    If it's not the Rapture, then there's no need for the absentee church to be concerned with being overtaken by it which makes Paul's standing order completely nonsensical.
    If it is indeed the Rapture, then what hope of a second chance do the lost have seeing that Paul says they will not escape the destruction which he and Peter say accompany this "day of the Lord"?
     
  6. Here's something else kinda fun to think about....
    Matt 25 - the parable of the wise and foolish virgins....

    Realize what "Foolish" means... It's not unlearned or uneducated (Simple) - but rather not accepting correction, prideful, arrogant, and always right in their own minds... Notice - they are not called "Simple" - but "Foolish"...

    Why would the "Foolish" virgins have not been prepared with oil? Remember - they are Foolish, not simple.... so it's not like they are unlearned or uneducated or did not have access to the information....

    Thanks
     
    Roads likes this.
  7. I am of the opinion that you are not really interested in the "WHEN". IMO your post is just another comment where you are trying to deny the Rapture and confuse it with the 2nd Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The Bible is extremely clear that The Rapture is the next prophetic event to take place and it will happen when the last person God has predestined to be saved actually comes to Christ. THAT will complete the church and set in motion the events of the Last days.

    After the Rapture will come 7 years of Tribulation as told to us by Jeremiah. At the end of those 7 years Christ will come again and stand on the Mt. of Olives putting and end to Armgaddon conflict.

    The "DAY OF THE LORD" is that period of time which begins after the Rapture and runs through the Millennial reighn of Christ on the Earth.

    Please read Isiaih chapters 12- 13 and you can see how God moves down in judgment on the military, commerce and society in general.

    Isaiah 13:9......
    "Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger,
    to make the land a desolationand to destroy its sinners from it."

    It starts out as a day of wrath: Isaiah 13:10.............
    "For the stars of the heavens and their constellationswill not give their light;
    the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light."

    In the prophecy of Joel 1:15 we are told.........
    "Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is near, and as destruction from the Almighty[a] it comes."

    Then in Joel 2:2......
    "a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness! Like blackness there is spread upon the mountainsa great and powerful people; their like has never been before,
    nor will be again after them through the years of all generations."

    The glorious truth of the WHEN is given to us by Jesus Christ in John 14:2-3........
    "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."

    As far as I can tell that is the 1st time that the Rapture truth is told to us and then Paul developed it in 1 Thess. chapter 4.

    WHEN then is answered in 1 Thess. 5:3.........
    "While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

    The world is looking for peace and praying for safety but they will find themselves in the Great Tribulation and after the Rapture and it will come upon the world suddely like a thief in the night.
     
    Silk likes this.
  8. For some reason the "Edit" choice did not work for me as I wanted to add something else to comment #7 and it is this............

    Is there any good news in the face of all this wrath coming from God?????????

    YES!!!!

    1 Thessalonians 5:9.........
    "For God hath not appointed us (The Church) to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ".

    God has not appointed the church to the day of wrath, the Great Tribulaton. It is a time of judgment and the church is not going to go through it because Christ bore our judgment on the cross.

    Do I deserve to be removed in the Raptue?? NO!!! I do not even deaserve to be saved.
    But God did that by His grace and I am just going to believe what He has said to me.

    "I have prepared a PLACE for YOU and will come to take you to your new home"!!!!
     
    Silk likes this.
  9. Absolutely, there is reason to be concerned.... What about the fellow who accepts Christ 1 minute after "The Rapture"... He's not going "Up and out" but rather "Through"....

    How many faithful were on the earth between Enoch and the Flood... Were any of them taken out after Enoch? How many faithful were in the Northern Kingdom after Isaiah... Were any of them taken out after Isaiah?
     
    Major likes this.
  10. Good thought.

    The 144,000 will be saved and sealed AFTER the Rapture. And we know that there will be a great revival coming during Tribulation from the work of the 2 witnessess and the 144,000.

    Revalation 14:13........
    "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, write, blessed are the dead which DIE IN THE LORD FROM HENCHFORTH, Yea, saith the Spirit, that THEY may rest from their labours and their works do follow them".

    It seems that an antold number of poeople will be saved during the Tribulation.
     
    Silk likes this.
  11. Agree with the two posts above

    There is a time that one cannot know .... and a time that one could calculate

    The Lord's next intervention will involve He calling for His true ecclesia, both the dead in Christ and those living at the time .... and then His judgment of an unbelieving world will come suddenly, and with no warning [Matthew Psalms 2; 24:36-39; Revelation 6:12-17]

    No one can know the dating of this sudden intervention and there will be no signs before .... the Lord has purposely refrained from revealing the dating

    Once His hour [time] of trial and judgment [Revelation 3:10] comes one will be able to count the days [2550 days] down to His visible appearing upon the earth ..... a time that one will be able to know .... and a time replete with signs and events leading up to His appearance at the end of the same

    .... and there will be those who become believers during the tribulation, but most will be martyred for their faith

    So it is very significant for a man to seek and follow Him today

    The professing church for example is full of those who profess, but are not truly His followers

    So He has given warning about this condition [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]
     
    Major and Silk say Amen and like this.
  12. There is absolutely no doubt that anyone who'd just been given an open-ended, standing order to "watch and be sober" would immediately ask, "watch and be sober for WHAT?" The very serious, urgent nature of the order demands the immediate revelation of the thing for which those charged with obeying the order are to watch. It would be the height of irresponsibility and dereliction of duty for Paul, as God's mouthpiece, to issue such and order but fail to make plain that for which the Lord wants us to watch.

    The only event that Paul speaks of in this passage is "the day of the Lord", and the only event that Jesuit Futurists are watching for is the Rapture, so is the "day of the Lord" the Rapture or not?


     

  13. I don't care what your opinions are, I'm only interested in Biblical evidence.

    If God, through Paul, gives us a standing order to "watch and be sober", only an unconverted fool would be disinterested in knowing exactly what this future event is for which the Lord wants us to watch and be sober. Since the only future event Paul mentions - which is the context of the entire passage - is "the day of the Lord", there's only one question remaining: Is or is not the "day of the Lord" the Rapture?
     
  14. Good comparison. In this parable, evil came to the virgins which failed to watch and be sober, sobriety being the state of mind necessary to obtain lamp oil. The object of this thread is to ascertain just what God through Paul is telling the church to watch for in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6. It is my belief, based on the Scriptural context of that passage, that God wants us to be watchful and sober for the "day of the Lord".
     
  15. To clarify, if the "day of the Lord" is not the Rapture, then it is completely unnecessary for those who will supposedly be caught up in the Rapture to watch and be sober for that "day of the Lord" because they will be gone by the time that day comes. If anything, Paul should have told them to "watch and be sober for the Rapture", but he doesn't, he simply says, "watch and be sober". The only future event that Paul speaks of in the context of the passage is "the day of the Lord", which must be that for which we are to watch and be sober.
     
  16. The event that Paul speaks of in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6 is not the rapture, but the "day of the Lord', so the only way for the rapture to be the next prophetic event is if it and the "day of the Lord" are one in the same.
     
  17. It is easy to forget that the scriptures were written for all generations of believers - so that all generations would be ready and prepared even if mortal death occurred before that time. That is the perfection and complexity of scripture. Scripture - out of context and sculpted to dearly held preconceived notions can be tortured to say anything. Ask the Adversary - he has done it ad nauseum
     
    Major likes this.
  18. #18 Straightshot, Jan 6, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
    "so is the "day of the Lord" the Rapture or not?"

    The answer is in scripture and I would suggest that you make an effort to find it for yourself .... your choice

    But you will do .... what you will do

    Denying the Lord's promise on the matter is not a good idea for sure .... and this behavior actually makes no good sense because you have nothing to lose by taking Him at His word

    And you might have everything to lose by your denial

    No literate Bible believing Christian who knows the details of prophetic scripture will ever be fooled by Satan's beast because this one has already been exposed in detail and will easily be recognized by his behavior and actions ..... all of this has already been documented beforehand

    The argument proposed by post-tribulation thinking is that if one believes in what you call the a pre-tribulation "rapture" and it does not happen that those expecting will either lose their faith and or will be deceived by Satan's beast

    This is highly improbable and not representative of a true believer's standing .... neither thing would ever happen

    A true believer who is well versed in scripture, and I do not know of any who are not, would never be deceived on this issue

    And then for the post-tribulation pied pipers to call the Lord's promise a "lie of the Devil" is unadulterated blasphemy and should be suspect of piper

    The "Day of the Lord" is His coming day of trial and judgment upon an unbelieving world [Psalms 2; Ezekiel 39; Joel 3; Micah 5; Zechariah 12; 14; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 6:12-17; 14:8; 16:1-16; 17:16-18; 19:1-6; 19:11-21] ..... to be followed by His millennial kingdom upon the earth [Micah 4; Revelation 20:4]

    And in the process He will seek to destroy all human rule to make way for His own .... and unprecedented time of vexation, confusion, deception, and destruction upon the earth that will last for 2550 days

    But just before He will call His true ecclesia out just as He says

    [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

    Here is the evidence for those dwelling as immortals in the heavenly state of existence during the coming tribulation

    [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9]

    Here are the same contending with the Lord against Satan's beast and his human followers at Armageddon [Revelation 19:11-21]

    And the same ruling with Him over His coming millennial kingdom of mortals [Revelation 20:4] [those on thrones ..... the symbol of His government]

    If you are looking for a resurrection just after the tribulation of those days you are looking in the wrong place .... the gatherings of Matthew 25:29-31; Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; [of Israel] and Matthew 25:31-46 [of the nations of the Gentiles] are not resurrections of anyone, but for separation of the mortal survivors of the tribulation period .... those found believing will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth .... those found in unbelief will be rejected

    If you are looking for your resurrection at the 7th judgment trumpet sounding of Revelation this will not come ..... there are no resurrections scheduled with this trumpet

    If you enter the tribulation period and turn to the Lord in repentance you will most likely be martyred for your faith .... but you will have to wait for your resurrection at the end of the battle of Armageddon [6:9-11; 14:13; 15:2-3; 20:4 [those beheaded]]

    And I will assume that you are not one of the Lord's two prophets of chapter 11 .... these two will be resurrected just before the battle of Armageddon after being killed by Satan's beast [Revelation 11]

    The last trumpet call for the Lord's ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and those living at the time is a very different trumpet sounding and not associated with any of the 7 judgment trumpets or the sounding of the "great" gathering trumpet just after the days of the tribulation which will herald the gathering of mortal Israelites that survive the same [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 25:29-31]

    The first trumpet sounding for the Lord's church is found here [Revelation 1:10] .... the Lord's first formal communication to the assembled church [Revelation 1:1-1:20]

    And I might suggest to you that if you are entertaining the idea of the post-tribulation pied pipers that the Lord's pre-tribulation "harpazo" action is a lie of the devil .... that you consider the possibility of the devil's lie being that of the post-tribulation ruse

    Satan is coming to the earth for a short time at the Lord's casting and he will be out to deceive and destroy as may humans that he can hunt down with the intent of keeping them from the truth and stealing their potential salvation

    I am just saying do not let him snooker you into the tribulation if in fact you are alive at the time

     
  19. I just wanted to note here that these statements are not necessarily true. The thing that now occurs to me to first ask is, "what does it mean to watch and be sober?"

    If it means "watch the world around you and be sober about looking for the unfolding of specific events," you may have a point.

    If it means what Abdicate suggested (Luke 21:34), then it means something more like "watch yourself and be sober about continually living your life as a disciple of Christ." If so, what "the day of the Lord" specifically entails is not the goal or context of the passage. Instead, it is an admonition about the way we choose to live.

    When I first read this passage, and the Mat 25 parable, I also assumed that "watch" meant "watch for signs in the world around you," but I changed my mind after listening to the counsel of Christians much wiser than me:) I now think that "watch" is "watch yourself," and the goal of that parable and this passage is to motivate us that, since time is short, do not wait, get up now, get out there and do God's work, with joy, vitality, perseverance and urgency.

    I will admit, I don't have a end times timeline I'm very confident in. In truth, I think we know what we need to know about it, which is not everything, and if we try to fill in the blanks with what we can "figure out," it's inevitable that we'll get it wrong, because we don't have enough facts to form valid premises.

    So if I tell you that I am one of the ones "disinterested in knowing exactly what this future event is," but instead, I'm very interested in these passages' motivation for us to live our lives fully sold out to God, because time is short for whatever He has planned next, I hope you don't mistake me for an "an unconverted fool":)

    Peace.
     
    Silk, Major and Abdicate says Amen and like this.
  20. (y)
    Very reasonable summary.
     
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