Was This The Greatest Supernatural Event Of The 20th Century?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by avemaria, Dec 28, 2012.

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  1. By this thread im not stating any Doctrine but something Historical that happened in 1917. It was witnessed by 70,000 people, got much media attention, and even secular people with no Religious persuasion wrote about it which makes it a Historical fact (something that happened) rather then something Doctrinal.​

    If someone wants to discuss something doctrinal you may contact me via personal inbox​

    In 1917, three shepard children were told that there were some Supernatural causes for World War 1 which was going on and that the war would end shortly.​
    The world was warned in advance that there would be a second and greater war. They were told precisely when the war would take place and that that the night would be aflame with an unknown light as a warning from God prior to it happening.​
    The Children were told that communism would rise in Russia and that Russia's errors (communism and socialism) would spread throughout the world causing wars and destruction of nations.​
    People were given many instructions on how these calamities could be avoided and a miracle was promised for everyone to see who wanted to show up at the Cova Da Iria, Fatima, Portugal.​
    A crowd of 70,000 people, many of them being antireligious communists and freemasons witnessed the promised miracle and wrote about it in secular newspapers...that is a fact​
    Two of the children were told they would die shortly and they did​
    To state that the miracle of Fatima took place is not necessarily saying that it was from God but that something took place that defied the laws of science and was witnessed by thousands of people and future events were told in advance. Some people say that the Supernatural event happened but it had some other origin than divine.​

    With that said, the miracle was witnessed by 70,000 people many of them with no religious persuasion wrote about what they saw. That is a FACT. Three illiterate shepard children told the world about the coming of the second world war and the rise of Communism prior to it happening...that is a fact.​

    An event like this is seen in Biblical times but when have we ever witnessed a miraculous and prophetic event like this in the 20th or 21sth century? ​
    No Dogma is defined by saying that thousands of people witnessed a miracle, it was promised that it would happen, and prophecies were contained that came true. If you research it from a Historical perspective you will discover it to be a fact because it got so much media attention when it happened.​

    I consider what happened at Fatima Portugal to be the greatest supernatural event and sign to modern skeptics who disbelieve the Supernatural.​

    What do you think?​
    Juk likes this.
  2. For something that is "fact" you seem to be leaving out some important details. Like, say for instance, what the miracle was. Or, a link to an eyewitness account, news article, etc. Right now, I see a fancy story with no underlying evidence. Its easy to write a story "in 1917 this happened" whats not easy is backing it up. Now, I am a natural skeptic of things like this, so yes I am asking for some actual evidence, an eyewitness account, news story, etc. And exactly what was this "miracle" with 70,000 witnesses, it shouldnt be hard to do.
  3. I am very familiar with Fatima, there have been apparitions in Medjugorje (ongoing), Kibehu and quite a few others over the last century or so.
    You will note that many protestants consider any appearances by Our Lady to be the devils work, because of course "that's not in the Bible".

    I have studied these and other apparitions and aside from a few caused by excitibility of the ignorant, and the occasional outright fraud, they appear to be genuine.

    The Medjugorje apparitions in particular show St. Mary striving to enduce the proper virtue and devotion for Jesus that all should aspire to.
  4. @the_patriot13

    Among other things, the sun danced in the sky, witnessed by thousands. Google it.
  5. I would say, if its not from Jesus, then it is from the devil. Marys not a saint, nor does she appear to people today, there is nothing Biblical about that, anywhere. And I did google it and read some articles both for and against-I am simply asking the op to further back up his claim, instead of just throwing it out there. Anyone can just throw an opinion out there-Im asking him to show me the research behind it.
  6. Do the research yourself, there is more than a plenty of info out there.

    I wasn't aware that you were privy to the counsels of God. That you tell Him what He can and cannot do with His own. Your blanket statement that "Mary is not a saint and does not appear to people today" is based on a complete ignorance of the subject matter and blind following of sola scriptura doctrine.
  7. There have been many books, articles from the media, documenteries, movies, eyewitness accounts of what happened, and it has been on the History channel as well.

    So you can still say it is a fairy tale just like you can say about anything else that you havent witnessed with your own eyes but there is more Historically documented evidence on what took place at Fatima than many other Historical events that are considered factual.

    I never intended this thread to have any Dogma or discussion about such things.
    I would be happy to discuss Doctrine with you and back it up with Scripture if you would like to send me a personal message.

    Thanks and may God bless you!
  8. Ava.........those things always come with dogma and discussion!!!
  9. How does one know if it is Mary???

    No one knows what see looked liked so any apperition could be anything our minds tell us that it is.

    Glo.........that is always the problem with "seeing" things.

    When our salvation is based on something we see or feel, we have crossed over into another religion alltogether.

    Christianity is based on what Jesus DID, not what we think we see.
    forgivenWretch likes this.
  10. The woman who appeared to the children at Fatima told them that she was the Virgin Mary.
    Later she also told them that there would be a miracle at a particular place and time and that miracle is what avemaria was referring to.

    You can say that the woman may have been lying, but to what purpose? Why would the devil appear to children as a biblical figure and foretell miracles that cause devotion to God? Bit irrational, no?
  11. Im privy to the Bible- Gods holy word, which doesnt say anything about mary being a saint, or her coming back, in fact Biblically, she cannot Hebrews 9:27 "and inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once--and after this judgement." Mary, while being the mother of Jesus, is not a "saint" and does not appear to people anymore-she died a long time ago, and is in heaven, and is not appearing to anyone anymore. Neither is any of the apostles. If you can show me where in scripture, they come back, I will believe you. Otherwise, no.

    As far as this "miracle" Demons do take on many forms. as far as the miracle of the sun, well Im sorry, 70,000 witnesses isnt enough. If it had to do with the sun, then the whole world would have seen it, not just some isolated town. At most it was just some kind of atmospheric disturbance, meteor, or perhaps weapons testing of some sort.

    As far as the "why" its simple. to draw people away from Christ, to distract them. Or maybe the kids made up the whole event with the virgin mary after the strange event for attention. who knows? it was what, 90 years ago?
  12. To those who believe no proof is necessary, to those who doubt no proof is possible.

    70,000 witnesses not enough? You're a riot!

    "who knows? it was what, 90 years ago?"

    Oddly, you make the same argument as the athiests. Such as "I did not see it myself and therefore it did not happen",
    and the ever popular "it happened so long ago and they were all ignorant peasants".

    By the way, if you have forgotten, Moses and Elijah showed up to chat with Jesus at the Transfiguration,
    and again "sola scriptura" is an invalid notion, regardless of it's popularity with the heirs of Luther.

    Sadly, the main problem of not believing in saints is that you can't become one,
    any more than one can be a pilot if you don't believe in airplanes.
  13. There were other unexplainable phenomena at fatima like miraculous healings and the fact that the soaked clothing of the people and the muddy grounds as a result of the pouring rain were completely dry following the solar phenomena.
    The other miracle is that the Children were foretelling future events that three illiterate shepards should know nothing about.
    Two of the children were also told that soon they would be taken to heaven and both of them got sick and died not long after.
    The "mass hallucination" theory fails to explain those things.

    Like I said I wanted to mention that the supernatural event took place and this discussion was suppose to be about if there has been a greater historically documented supernatural event than this in modern times.
    That was the question and was suppose to be the topic of discussion.

    But since this has been the result of the discussion I shall say

    The patriot said "If you can show me where in scripture, they come back, I will believe you."

    Moses and Elijah were not only interacting with Christ while he was on earth but they also appeared to some of the Apostles. (Matthew 17:1-13)
    Also, (Romans 12:5) " so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others."
    It would be Unbiblical to say that someone who is a member of the body of Christ on earth ceases to be a member of the body of Christ after physical death.
    To say that the souls in Heaven do not interact with God (pray) is unbiblical and to say that they never appeared to people on earth after their physical death is unbiblical.
    To say that something is deffinately false because it is not contained in the Bible is also unbiblical.
  14. Yes, ave I have no doubt that Moses and Elijah appeared to Christ in front of the disciples on the mount of transfiguration. It was more of a sign to the apostles, and I am not arguing that. Nor are they saint mary, or any of the others. After we die, we go to heaven to be with Jesus, and thats where we stay. To say that we come back is a gross misinterpretation of Romans 12:5, as the apostle Paul was not even talking about where we go after we die in that passage, he was talking about the church, as a whole here on earth, not where we go after death.

    So, Biblically yes the people in heaven, do interact with God. They do not come back to earth to interact with people, that is not Biblical, aside from the mount of transfiguration-where they actually came to converse with Jesus, not the apostles whom just happened to witness, there are no examples of this in the NT. And that was merely a sign.

    Sola scripture, is always an option-the only option. The Bible, is what tells us about God and who He is, and how we are to follow Him. It also says repeatedly not to add to, or take away from scripture. Deuteronomy 4:2 "you shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take away from it. Psalm 119:160 "the entirety of your word is truth. Proverbs carries a firm warning in 30:6 "add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar"
    In the book of revelation, it states "for I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19.

    The Bible, is everything we know about God. To say we can know more about God and His work, outside of the Bible, is false. We cannot take from it, nor can we add to it. We cant pick and choose what we want to believe, and we cant add into stuff we want to believe. Furthermore, the body of Christ-christians, we are all called to be saints. (1 Cor 1:2 among others) the early christians were just that-early christians. Peter, was human, just like you and I. He wasn't this special supernatural person, so was Mary. they were Human. Christ, is the only person with any diety. We are just as much "saints" as Peter, Paul, or any of the others. The Bible does not bestow sainthood on any certain people, but rather on all Christians.

    And you miss my point. a miracle concerning the sun, would have been seen by the entire world, or at least everyone on the sun side of the planet-you would have more then just 70,000 witnesses. I don't doubt something happened, what I doubt, was that it was the sun, and I sincerely doubt it had anything to do with God or the "virgin mary" it was something local, and probably something that can be explained by science, and science they didnt have.
    forgivenWretch likes this.
  15. . It also says repeatedly not to add to, or take away from scripture. Deuteronomy 4:2 "you shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take away from it. Psalm 119:160 "the entirety of your word is truth. Proverbs carries a firm warning in 30:6 "add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar"
    You do understand that absolutely none of that applies to what we call the New Testament, none of which existed at the time that those scriptures were written. Assuming that God has spoken to no-one for the last 1900 years is a bit presumptive on your part.

    You refuse to put any effort, and more critically any thinking into this subject, but that's OK, it will likely have no impact whatsoever on your salvation. I do warn you though, do not curse the servants of God in ignorance.
    The angels and the host of Heaven go about God's will according to His purpose, not yours. Your stating that those in Heaven must stay there has as much weight as me telling the moon when it may rise and set.
  16. so, the fact that Im taking scripture for how it is shows lack of critical thinking? No it doesnt, it means im not one to call God a liar. Where, in scripture, does it say that people come back from heaven to visit us? how is that cursing God, in ignorance or not? its not in scripture that christians come back to visit us, nowhere, which means your "critical thinking" is getting it from somewhere else. Now does God still speak to man? sure but not like He did in Biblical times. He doesnt send down christians from heaven in visions, or anywhere else-you dont find that teaching in the Bible. Thats not cursing God-or His servants-in ignorance nor anything else.

    I like how you ignored the passage I quoted from Revelations, which is in the NT. I also encourage you to read galatians 1:6-12 where the apostle Paul warns against anyone who teaches anything other then the gospel. If its in addition to what the Bible teaches, then its false. Its as simple as that.

    So again, if you think that St. Mary or any of the other apostles, come visit us in modern times, then show it to me in scripture. I will accept no other evidence, because that is the only evidence, that matters. Demons often come disguised as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:12-13) and for all you know that entire miracle, including the vision, was satan himself. Seeing as you have yet to provide any Biblical evidence that St Mary ever appears to anyone, that is far more believeable right now.
    Major and forgivenWretch say Amen and like this.
  17. "a miracle concerning the sun, would have been seen by the entire world"
    There was a promised sign that would be given to those who showd up at the apparition site. That promised sign took place for the crowd that showed up at the place and on the day that the sign was promised.
    The sign was not promised for the whole world to see.

    However, at the apparition, the world was told that the sky would be illuminated by an unknown light as a warning that God would punnish the world with a greater war. This was visible throughout Europe.

    In the evening of January, 25th 1938 a brilliant aurora borealis described as "a curtain of fire" and "a huge blood-red beam of light" was visible troughout the entire old Europe...
    Soon after the event, few weeks later Hitler's Third Reich annexed Austria's territories starting the chains of events that leaded to the most obscure times of the history of the human mankind.
    In the evening of August, 23rd 1939 another aurora borealis phenomenon was visible in the skies of Europe, right in the day when Berlin and Moscow signed the Molotov-Von Ribbentrop pact.

    Again I shall mention, the children knowing about future events taking place is in my opinion a greater and more important sign than the October 13 Solar miracle. If God wanted to work a solar miracle that was only visible as a sign to those who showed up when and where they were told to go, than God is perfectly capable of doing such a thing
  18. I still question if it was from God, as yet no one has given any scriptural evidence thereof. So, a child said he predicted it. Is there any record of the child predicting said event BEFORE it happened? if not how do you know the story about the prediction wasnt made up?
  19. The apparitions took place from may 13 to October 13 on a monthly basis. The children were interrogated about the message and persecuted. They were even kidnapped by communists authorities, threatened to be boiled alive, and placed in an adult prison.
    Not to mention, had they promised a miracle and a crowd of 70,000 showd up in the pouring rain to witness nothing it would have hurt the Church, hurt peoples faith, and ruined the lives of those seers.
    I have done plenty of research and prayed often to the Holy Spirit to convict my heart if im wrong about these things.
    There is overwhelming evidence that such a thing was no hoax and a sign for our times.
  20. you are still arguing nothing ave. I never once said it didnt happen. So arguing whether the event happened or not, is a moot argument. What I am questioning, was A: if it was of God or not and B: whether it was supernatural or not. Neither of which, you have provided any real evidence for. So what if the children were perescuted? it means they had conviction, whether it be to a lie or not-even muslims will go to their death believing in a lie. Big deal. did something happen? probably. was it a miracle from God prophecied by Saint mary? most definetly, no.
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