1. Hello Guest! You are browsing the forums as a guest; you will have limited permissions as a guest so we advise registering to enjoy the forums fully. Remember: we are a Christian ONLY site - any user who is not Christian will not be approved. Blessings, Christian Forum Site Staff
    Dismiss Notice

Was the Trinity included in Jesus’ gospel?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by John Zain, Jul 3, 2011.

  1. This is NOT arguing against the Trinity … I believe in the Triune Godhead.

    Jesus went around to all of the villages and towns preaching the gospel ... His gospel.
    And later, Jesus commanded His disciples to preach His gospel to the ends of the earth.

    Jesus’ gospel (good news, glad tidings, etc.), not Paul's gospel, nor anyone else's gospel.
    And this obviously has nothing to do with the Nicean Creed from 325 a.d.

    There is some difference between Jesus’ preaching of His gospel to the multitudes
    compared to His teaching to His disciples (especially at the end of His ministry).
    To the mutlitudes … was the Holy Spirit ever included?
    To the disciples … the Holy Spirit was included,
    especially in His great farewell discourse (see a great Trinity passage: John 14:16-26).

    Two sources of belief in the Trinity:
    1) being born into a family, culture, etc. which has “blind faith” in it.
    2) being given a further spiritual revelation (beyond a belief in the gospel).

    My bottom line
    The Trinity was never a part of the simple gospel that Jesus preached to the multitudes.
    A belief in the Trinity often needs to come from a spiritual revelation.

    Are you able to show me verses of Jesus' preaching (in the 4 gospels)
    where the Trinity is a part of His gospel?

    There has been a great problem because of the absence of the Trinity in Jesus’ gospel.
    This has led many (including Muslims) to insist that Paul preached a different gospel.
    But, let us realize that Jesus and Paul preached to 2 totally different audiences:
    Jesus preached to the multitudes (none of which had the Holy Spirit).
    Paul’s letters were to the churches (most of whom had the Holy Spirit).
  2. Can we rather say human perception extracts the "trinity" from the gospel?
  3. You would think just some intellect and reading ability would be enough ... but ...
  4. The Bible itself is the spiritual revelation of the Trinity. Someone .... I forget who .... counted over 700 evidences of the Trinity in the Hebrew scriptures, and 54 in the Christian writings. Maybe you can find it on the internet.

  5. John I see you are just as pompous everywhere you go?
  6. Wait...what? The Trinity isn't part of the Gospel? Ok, I like that we are spending some time thinking about these things and questioning things, but that is a huge stretch. It doesn't take a whole lot of work to see that the Triune is mentioned, both as a whole and by each characteristic (or personality, or person, or however your favorite branch of theology terms them). You can nitpick and say that the word isn't mentioned, but to say that it isn't part of the Gospel is nearly Blasphemy.

    That being said, we also need to understand the the Trinity is a way of reconciling an infinite God described in Scripture with our finite understanding. It is a model. More than allegorical but less than a discrete description of a Holy God. We have Jesus speaking many times about each of the characteristics of God. He mentions Himself as the Son. He mentions the Father. He tells of the Comforter.

    I think I see what you are trying to say since Jesus (and Paul) were very clear about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but the way you are approaching this gets dangerously close to Oneness Gospel. While I don't personally have a problem with those that follow it, I believe that it is a violation of the site's SoF, so i caution you to tread carefully.
  7. I recently talked with an individual who has been a Christian for around 70 years. A strong Christian. He was reading some material I consider heritical and start saying he was doubting that the Holy Spirit was/is a person that it was most likely simply something else (I forgot what he called it). Also, he said he thought perhaps the teaching of the Trinity was wrong. I told him that I consider both ideas to be heritical and cautioned him against reading the materials he had.

    Thank you, Brother Ban, for your comments. The eternally separate yet eternally one triune God is our God, our Saviour, and our Comfort.
  8. Banarenth and his favorite granny,
    The problem seems to be mine.
    Few seem to understand the words that I have written.
    So, I caution everyone to read it very carefully before committing judgment.
    Key words: Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, gospel, multitudes.
  9. Zain, I have no idea what it is you are trying to accomplish, but you come across as very arrogant. You appear to be trying to teach, but some here are your elders, not novices.
    If your intentions were good, your results would be also.
    Major and forgivenWretch say Amen and like this.
  10. I agree. Nothing is gained through a condescending attitude. You will find that few respond well to it.
    Major and forgivenWretch say Amen and like this.
  11. Greetings in the name of Jesus::)

    If I may respectively disagree with the use of terms " Trinity" and " Triune"... as related unto God words. Which objection has merit in truth as to adding too and not adding unto Gods words. Since God and his words are one, and words perfect; then if words are not actually of Scriptures, it was Gods will and informed truth that they are not there, god doesn't make mistakes...

    If I may offer suggest that Trinity and Triune God concept does have merit..! But only merit as to human perception and knowledge of God( which is limited perception). In other words, there is a limited perception by man, which has a Trinity relationship to God, and a limited Triune Godhead association.

    Adding these specific words to Gods perfect word and bible is a form of Blasphemy. With all due respect. It is clearly forbidden for men to do this. Adding too, or taking away from Gods words.

    I due believe in a form of Trinity, limited too " Man's knowledge of God". ( Men know God in three ways) But if God is Omnipotent and all powerful.. Then God can only be " One" as written, yet have many names and faces for this one God including three known by man, which men know of three faces or have perception of the one God.

    If I may suggest, that an all Powerful God is One or many ( including three) ...God being all powerful, cannot by man, be limited to 3 or limited to a" Triune God", which cannot be limited except by his word alone...God can be and is 4 or more when he wants it. Man should not add to scriptures by limiting God to Three persona's of God perceived by man, when God only limits man, to three faces of God. Man has a trinity of revelation, not that the One God Omnipotent is limited to three. Man is limited not God.

    I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:)
  12. I find it is always good to let Jesus have a say in these discussions. :) He is usually able to clear up most things if we listen to HIS declaration of truth more than we listen to each other's opinions and interpretations.

    Firstly Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit / comforter/ advocate as a person seperate to Himself and His Father:-

    Secondly Jesus declared that both He and the Holy Spirit do not speak on their own behalf or do their own will but the will of the one Father so that whether it be the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit it is the same will and the same word in all, the will and word of the one true God as Jesus called our Father (Joh 17:3).

    I kinda like the word "Tri-unity" myself (especially as I just concocted it:)). I think it better describes the "oneness" that Jesus spoke of. But how many of us fully appreciate the WE also are destined to be ONE with the "trinity" also? :-

  13. Spiritofprophecy, I'm not offended by your words. I do submit that, based upon your characterization, you have an incorrect view of the Trinity. I did find your characterization somewhat difficult to follow, however. Perhaps you could post a short revision of it.

  14. Why don't many people reading the Holy Bible depend on GOD, who alone, can reveal His "intended message" from the "letter" of His words? This was demonstrated early in His ministry when He told His listeners, right after driving out the merchants in the temple.

    John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    Look what the JEWS perceived of the temple when it is written JESUS did not speak except in parables:

    Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

    John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    Matthew 27:39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, :40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
    But for Jesus' DISCIPLES:

    John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

    John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


    Those who took the words of God to the "letter" or literally being perceived did not even believe the scripture!
  15. Greetings in the name of Jesus: :)

    Dear Mr. Dok:
    Your post did say..." based upon your characterizations, you have an incorrect view of Trinity"...

    With all due respect, any characterization or view of Trinity by anyone, is their opinion only. To suggest someone's opinion or view is " incorrect" would suggest Gods authority on subject matter. Feel free to give scriptural inaccuracies as to subject matter... But I do not see them.

    To also suggest by some as has been done, that Trinity has it's origins in Hebrew Judaic thought and law, is a inaccurate...!! As one who lived, studied and spoke Hebrew in Israel. I know for a fact that the perception of Trinity by Jews, is the biggest rift between the two religions, which should be one religion. Because of Trinity they claim Christianity is false. From their perspective, they are right; yet they perceive Jesus improperly, as do many Polytheistic Christians...Jesus is the Messiah, All God; the One God. In my opinion.

    Trinity says " three"... Any quantification of a omnipotent God is wrong. God cannot be limited or quantified by man, according to scriptures, man cannot judge God...

    Trinity Christians believe God is three...Which should be interpreted as God is one, but known to man in Three ways....Judaism believes there is one God, who is indivisible, yet can have many faces or branches...

    In Judaism, God is the Root or tree or vine....Jesus is one of Gods branch's....Can we not then say, that the branch and tree are one ? Or say, that they are not one and the same of the tree.?..Jesus is either all God, or not God....Jesus said when you see me, you also see the father, when you deny Jesus, you also deny the father. Jesus was all God, and also all man... God took upon himself Flesh.

    According to Judaic truth, the Messiah is all God or " God with Man" Emanuel.. Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) , God made flesh.

    There are many beliefs and perceptions as to the " Trinity of God". Since this form is not scriptures, I follow the word and call it not scripture.... I do believe in a " Trinity of perception by man of God".. This is reality to me...Christians know God by " Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"...

    Issiah 9: 6-7 . KJV.." Unto us a child is born unto us a son is given...and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, The everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government there shall be no end."... Is the Child (Jesus), also The everlasting Father, and Mighty God? I say yes...

    There are many interpretations of this verse by both Jew and Christian. Jews believe in One God, with many possible names...Some Christians believe Jesus is not also God the father, but a second God...This perception is what Jews believe that Christianity is rooted in. Which 2 gods or Trinity Gods is not Monotheism but Polytheism..! With all due respect....Polytheism is a form of Paganism...Most Christians, me included are rooted in paganism. God the Father and God the Son, is God made flesh, but same God. Monotheism. The Messiah, according to Judaism, is the One true God.

    I pray my words do not offend, God bless all Christians in forum, and all those who use it.:)
  16. It isn't a "perception" that He is God in Three Persons. Scripture attests to that in the Hebrew and the Christian scriptures. Those scriptures are available to you so I won't quote all 754 of them here. How do you reconcile this:
    with your stated belief in a "Trinity of perception." The second and third quote appear to be statements of fact.

    Do you present yourself as a prophet? Do you receive new insights into the nature of God that you feel compelled to share with others, i.e., to prophesy? Do you predict the future based upon revelations from God? Does God speak to you in an audible voice? Have you seen God? Jesus?
    God is not the author of opinion. He is the author of Truth. I have no "opinion" about God. I, and my fellow born-again Believers, are blessed by God's description of Himself.


  17. During the manifestation of God on earth in the Person of Jesus, the Jewish Messiah and the Savior of all humankind, two compelling revelations occured:

    1) At the water baptism of Jesus by John, after which God’s voice is heard saying, “This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:17). Jesus is, of course, the Second Person of the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. His manifestation on earth is characterized by the word “Son.” Jesus testified in one place (Matthew 26:63), “.....Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” The message, the activities, the actions, of the Son, are identical to those of the Father. In another place He says (John 10:30), “I and my Father are One.”

    2) In Matthew 17:1-5, an incredibly profound appearance, Moses, Elias, and Jesus appear. Peter wants to prepare a tent for all three. However, God says, “THIS is my beloved Son; hear ye Him!” In other words, Jesus, the very I AM, is to be listened to. A new day (though prophesied long before) was dawning in the life of the Jewish people. Moses and Elias fade away; only Jesus remains. In effect God is saying “THIS is my manifestation on earth. THIS is that most Holy One sent to deliver the nations. THIS is who you are to listen to and follow.” The veil of the temple had been rent from top to bottom. The “Old” was passing away! Behold, the “New” is here!

    In the scriptures Jesus is identified as “the Son of God” and “the Son of Man.” In the first instance He is the representative of God to us. In the second instance He is our representative to God. Both natures are revealed to us in the following scriptural reference (among many):

    63 But Jesus kept silent; and the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the Living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God."

    64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the Right Hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of Heaven.”

    Jesus leaves no room for doubt. In essence, in response to the high priest, He said “You’ve identified Me as such yourself! Even though you’ve already done that, I'll just emphasize that that’s Who I am! And this Representative of man to God will be seated at the Right Hand of Power (in the Place of Honor), and coming straight at you, on the clouds of Heaven.”

    Clearly, the application for the Believer is to acknowledge that these scripture references are the very Word of God. They cannot be questioned, dissected, convoluted, or made to yield any other interpretation. The “Son” of God is come, and every Believer is a witness!

    For non-believers, this testimony is beyond their comprehension. Open your Bible to 1 Corinthians 2:1-16. Read what the Apostle Paul says about those who remain outside the glorious gift of God, that is, salvation in none other than Jesus.

    The mission of the Christian, then, is to witness to those who remain outside the fold. We are to share with them the Good News that Jesus is the very One that the Bible identifies as our Savior and Lord once we yield our lives to Him.

    Show the non-believer Romans 10:8-13. Then flip over to John 14:6, John 3:16-17, John 3:3. Invite that person to receive the calling of the Holy Spirit to unite with God in Christ. Read Ephesians 2:8-9.

    For those who truly believe, HE is only a prayer away. God bless you as you reflect His glory where you live.
  18. God spoke. What He spoke became. God said, "this is it!" This is that spoken of by the prophets, yet prepared before space and time began. ELOHIM, God in Three Persons, Three Persons in God, (a plurality) created (singular) in the beginning all that there is. God spoke. What He spoke became. He became the physical manifestation of Himself in the womb of Mary, in His physical birth in Bethlehem, while remaining in the Place of Highest Honor, invisible, Spirit, outside of space and time. His physical manifestation on earth, known by us as "the Second Person of the Godhead," (Godhead = 1 in 3, 3 in 1). His purpose while remaining "seated" (permanent) in the Place of Highest Honor was to create, and in so doing, reveal Himself to His creation.

    Following the crucifixion, the physical manifestation of God on earth returned "to the Father." He was "seated" at the "right hand of God." Explanation: He resumed His Spiritual position as the Second Person of the Trinity, not separate, but ONE with the Father and with the Third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. Having "seated" Himself (having been 'pre-established') there, He dispatched the Holy Spirit to "come alongside" us, His invisible manifestation. God was and is still on THE Throne, the Place of Highest Honor. Jesus was and is still on THE Throne, the Place of Highest Honor crowned with many Crowns, King of kings, Lord of lords, high and lifted up!!

    This Truth is not comprehended by the human intellect. It is impossible. Paul points that out to us in 1 Corinthians 2:1-16. I'm so GLAD Paul had that inserted into the Christian writings! Attempting to juggle scripture with the mind, will, and emotions will lead us nowhere. ONLY when we humble ourselves, yielding to the Holy Spirit within, is our Spiritual Nature energized, leading us into the proper interpretation of scripture AND the ability to overcome the ever-present sinful nature.

    RELAX! Let go and let God work it out in you! Be blessed! Worthy is the Lamb, now seated on THE Throne.
  19. Greetings in the name of Jesus:

    Dear Mr. Dok:

    Let me apologize because I read your post over and over, and yet still do not understand it.

    You said, " God is not the author of opinion" man is opinion... Nor is " God the author of confusion"... Let me also apologize for my poor communication skills. It is obvious I did not make my interpretations and opinions clear... but as to opinion, that is of man, of which I am one. God did not author Trinity, or Triune. that did come from man, which is fact.

    There are several options as to God... of which there is only One Monotheistic concept....

    1. Monotheism or One God...making Jesus either the one God or not...
    2. Polytheism or multiple Gods...God The Father, and a second son God named Jesus. with then Satan a demi God.

    From my past study of Judaism; the concept of multiple Gods contradict some of the root doctrines of Judaism and disciples time Christianity, as well as contradicting the " Ten commandments". " No other Gods before me"..

    I believe in the " Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" the foundation of the Trinity Concept, yet the concept of Trinity allows for elaboration and confusion, which is not actually scriptures.

    I guess the true question here; Is " Jesus God/Messiah or not ". Is there or can there be more than one God..? And can their be Demi Gods ( Satan)...

    I believe in # 1... there is One God, which Father, Son, and Spirit are all the same one God. Where there is a Trinity of relationship of man to God, but not that God is Three, or a Trinity of God, except only unto mans perceptions. Again, if God is Three and not four or cannot be four; then God is limited and not Omnipotent.. Again, God Omnipotent, is One or many, including three known by men. Mans wisdom of God is limited to " Earthly things of God".

    As to Prophets,, the prophets were until John, and have "passed out of the land", Jeremiah; Since Jesus, the Prophets mantle has become the "Disciples of Christ", " Children of the Kingdom", with the " Spirit of Prophesy" a blessing of the Spirit, one of many blessing from God.

    God did not seal prophesies for the end days for nothing. If these are the end times of the Gentile rule; then all things of Gods words are opened up for interpretation through the Spirit.

    Monotheism, is not a new concept; but established by Moses, Prophets, Jesus and all disciples... Polytheism was warned about by Peter, and prophesied as a truth to come, which has come to pass.

    I apologize for being long winded, in attempting to be clear.

    I pray my words do not offend, God Bless all Christians in forum, and all who use it.:)
  20. Are you a Christian? If so, describe how you became one. If not, how can you offer insights into Christianity?

    You can answer my other questions, as well.

    Suffice it to say that no one, not one, has the gift of prophecy today. No one on the face of the earth can
    convey a "word" from God outside of scripture. To state otherwise is deception on the part of those who
    claim the ability.



Share This Page