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Was Paul Crazeeeee?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Xian Pugilist, Aug 7, 2012.

  1. Rom 7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.


    Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
    Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
    =========================================
    Phl 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect,
    ....

    Phl 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect,
    ...

    =========================================

    When you see verses like this, how do you go about reconciling them? Or do you bother? One common reaction is to accept the verse that suits our needs, and ignore the other, schluffing it off to the side.

    You see this a lot in a WORKS conversation. Someone will quote Eph 2:8,9, but leave vs 10 that says you are saved to do works, out of the chat.

    So, let's discuss either how we reconcile them in general, or how we have reconciled Paul speaking from both sides here....
     
  2. 'sides Jesus, I love me some Apostle Paul!!! :D I'll come back to this one later...
     
  3. the two fisted boxer posts :
    V10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
    So where is the rocket science here? We are saved by Grace, and not by the observance of the cultic laws. We are not veggies, there are a number of good (worthwhile) things laid up for us through the prior planning for our future welfare by the Lord.
    Idle hands=devils playground....ooops, no more devil, well we wont be bored anyway.
     

  4. OK.........lets do that. I for one do not believe that there is any reconciliation needed, just Biblical understanding.

    Rom 7:5
    "For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death."

    Paul has given the analogy of marraige in verses 1-5 and now draws a conclusion.

    The law confirms and seals our bondage to sin. As long as we are governed by the law, there is no chance of being loosened from that bondage. The only alternative is death.

    BUT when Christ died, we died to the law. Sin now has no more claim over us neither does the law. That fact makes it possible that we can now produce fruit unto God. That fruit IMO is a righteous life which is seen by others as "good works" which God has before ordainbed that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:10).

    Romans 7:14 needs to be understood in light of verse 7-11. Paul has just said that "wherefore the law is holy".
    From what he has said, we might expect a differant end to this. But since the law intrinsically and originally was intended to guide men to life, it is therefore a holy law, just and good.

    Paul then expands on the principle that it is SIN which is the deceiver and not the law.

    "Was then that which is good made death unto me"? (vs #13).

    Paul then denies this again....."GOD FORBID".

    It is sin that works death using the instrument of the law and the purpose is that sin might be shown to be sin. Death is brought by sin, even though the instrumentality of the law is good.

    Paul's conclusion then concerning the law is...."FOR WE KNOW THAT THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL".

    Someone will say....I don't understand that!!

    Folks....the Greek word "SPIRITUAL" is not used in contradiction to corporeal but is used to "INTIMATE" that the law finds its roots in the Holy Spirit.

    That fact friends is why it is so important to grasp the importance of the imdwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the believer.


    Rom 7:15
    For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

    Many, many Christians are in ignorance spiritually concerning their two natures. AS LONG as we live in this life we will have a battle between the Spirit of God and the flesh (Carnal man).

    Paul is a Christian, an apostle and he is admitting that he is confronted by the temptation of sin. He is not trying to rid himself of the responsibility of his sin. He know that in the believer there are two wills, that of the fleshly sinful nature that causes him to sin and that which is born of God which does not sin (1 John 3:9).

    Phl 3:12
    Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect,

    Paul is not claiming perfectness here but that he is still reaching forward and progressing in being like Christ.

    The rest of the verse goes on to say.........."If that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of CHrist Jesus."

    Nothing there to reconsile IMO. God desires to reveal His Son in Paul Paul. (Gal. 1:16).
    Paul desires a fuller apprehension of Christ, a fuller appropriation of Christ and a fuller appreciation of Christ.
     
  5. I think it's pretty simple as well.

    That's why when someone hyper reacts to seeing the word WORKS, and starts spouting off verses that you can't be saved by works, and they quote the first two, leave the third out of their conversation so they don't have to face it, that I find them not very honest in the discussion. Wouldn't you agree?

    You aren't saved by works.

    But if you aren't doing the works you probably aren't saved.
    For, that which saves you, manifests in works.
     
    covered_by_grace likes this.
  6. Except he says he's not in the flesh.

    Which makes him saying the flesh still causes him to behave differently (not just struggle, that's too much liberty with the words) to see less than honest.

    Is Paul in the flesh or not?
    Does the Flesh still make him do things he doesn't want to do or not?

    If he's not in the flesh, how does the flesh make him do anything?
    Especially in lieu of gal 5:16, walk by the flesh, don't give into temptation. WHICH would mean you aren't doing anything but what the Spriit approves of.

    It just doesn't make sense this way to me.
     
  7. I am sorry to hear that. It makes perfect sense to me.
     
  8. Ok?

    So Paul being in the flesh forced to do what he doesn't want to do,
    when Paul said he's not in the flesh.

    I'm in the water but I'm not wet.
     
  9.  
  10. "sense to me", "Grasp it" is very subjective.
    I can in turn say the same thing.
    You ignore Paul's words, because it gets in the way of your presupposition.

    You stopped conversing and started proclaiming. I guess we are done. :)

    Thank you for a nice chat. It was dang near pleasant even. :) j/j.
     
  11. BTW, A wiccan can grasp the earth Goddess, or Cernuno, or, etc.... does that make them more right than me or you?
     
  12. We need to understand what these works are though.

    I think we need to go back before verse 8. V8 begins with "for" which is as good as saying 'therefore' or 'because of what I have just said..(introduced) the following is true'. Begining with Verse 4, Eph 2:4. Paul contrasts the outworking of God's Grace with the workings of the prince of the power of the air...Satan.(verses 1-3).
    As early as verse 5, Paul uses the phrase 'by grace you have been saved'. What is the relevance of this to Paul's discussion? Is it not simply that although once children of wrath, we have found favour from the Lord. Our intrinsic righteousness is nothing, His Grace is everything. As for 'Works' there are two basic kinds. We can choose what works we will do, (if and when it suits us), or we can respond to the urges of the Holy Spirit.
    In other words, the works which will be the fruit of the urgings of the Holy Spirit will be as summarized in Eph 5:9. and detailed for us in Gal 5:22.
    I like the aorist indicative of Paul's argument......one could say it is all a done deal; our salvation that is.
    This is also to be found in Heb 12:18,19,20,21,22,23,24. With the (to me), key cerse being v22.
     
  13. When did a conversation turn into a contest of right and wrong?

    We simply do not agree on several things and lets leave it at that. As I have said to you before, absolutly no one has to agree with me. I do this to get out the Word of God, not to have a game of right and wrong. People who read this stuff have the ability to make their own choices.
     
  14. Forced???

    Where in the Scriptures do you find that Paul was FORCED?

    Romans 7:15-20
    "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

    Nothing there about being FORCED my friend.
     
  15. You are certainly more educated in Greek than me. I know enough to follow, and if I am studying a verse I understand it for the time I'm in it. But I only retain the conclusion. I don't work with it enough to start remembering all the stuff and I have to figure it out again each time. Sort of like building a computer. By the time I build a new one everything has changed so much I have to start over. :| Which btw, really annoys me.

    I don't see anything to disagree with here, although I'm sure over coffee I'd take us way into some place you didnt' see coming. I'm that much of a heretic I guess.

    But addressing the works.... People often quote paul for works are bad arguments. Do you agree most of those people are knee jerking to the thought of works?

    Grace, is a double sided coin. Sure it's a free gift, but it isn't just salvation. If you take the coin, you take the heads side (salvation) as well as the tails side, (works). I justify that thought with the parable of the vine. As a branch you just hold the fruit, the vine makes it. In real life, you are the tool, not the architect. Moses held the stick up and parted the red sea. But WHO PARTED THE RED SEA? In other words, you will do works, the works, be the tool, but GOD does the works and does the work. How's that for a sentence that on the surface is meaningless? So the VINE is making the fruit, putting it on us to hold. We are doing work, but it's the work he's doing through us. I'm blabbering now. sorry.

    Paul says that the most controversial theological argument of his day wasn't important, circumcision or uncircumcision, the root image behind the keep the law or not arguments, but faith working through love was. Gal 5:6. he's the one that wrote Xian maturity comes through works. Works can't be separated from the equation.

    The types of works, are demonstrated with the parable of the sheep and goats, they fed, clothed, etc... did the charitable works. Of course those are examples and are not limitations. The very word LOVE/AGAPAO is an emotion that results in an action. It's not necessarily love even. Desire would be a better word, you can desire the wicked, or you can desire to help your neighbor. So you can't love neighbor, OR love God without doing the works. If you claim that love, but do nothing, you are making an empty claim.

    We are the instruments of righteousness God's Church
    LOVES
    God's people through. When He wants one cared for, WE are the ones that do the caring.

    Jesus said God's love was such that it provided even for His enemies. Then told us to love as perfectly as God does. It's clear we are to be generous and charitable above and beyond. This guilt trip behind the "don't do works to get saved" folks, are leading people to be recalcitrant to do the very works they were saved to do.

    If they want your coat, give them their shirt. (look at the "church's" stand on gay marriages and justify it in lieu of that teaching?).

    So, we are saved, not to be big achievers of our own right, but to be His big instruments of Love.

    The rich young ruler, when told, "If you would be perfect" and basically was told to be born again...... In metaphor though... Lookit the words. Go and sell all you have developed on your own, and use to provide for yourself. Give it to the poor, and come follow me, Jesus, totally dependant, with nothing to offer, blessed are the poor in spirit. Look up that word for Poor. It puts a new light on that tale.

    So, the works, won't save you if you try to earn your way there by building stairs of works. However, if you are going to go to heaven the stairs of works will be built. The difference is who is the carpenter, and who is the tool.

    Rich young ruler was the carpenter to his own success, Jesus wanted him to learn to be a good tool, or instrument of righteousness.

    That's how I see it. :) I'll argue it all day long, or just discuss it peacefully if available. hehe

     
  16. I didn't know it had, do you want to make it one? You made a comment about grasping, I showed through example why that wasn't a standard. I'm not afraid of competing, but I'm not. In fact, I'm working hard at keeping it conversational with you.

    Major, I could care less who agrees with what. When someone wants to discuss a topic, and it's ok as long as they have the podium, but then an argument arrives that they aren't sure how to reconcile, or can't, then walks off and says we just disagree it means one thing.... where I was willing to talk about our disagreements the other person isn't. They are comfortable explaining how it is, and would accept acknowledgement they have it right, but not something that may suggest other wise. I got past that a long time ago. I wish you the same. I only wanted to talk. We still had places we disagree with, I was still trying to talk, but you wanted to stop. I was honoring that. So, to make sure I honor it. I'll not reply not matter how challenging the comment I see is. :) That's a test of faith for me, trust me.
     
  17. Well, let's see. If you are doing what you don't want to do, and not able to do what you want to do, then...... if you tried to not do what you wanted to do, willingly, you wouldn't be able to do it. :| Are you serious? Paul paints a picture of a controling force inside of you he labels Sarx. You are a SLAVE TO THE ONE YOU OBEY, if you are of the flesh your mind desires those things, of the spirit it desires those things... Paul talks about the two forces in control of your life, the Spirit of God, or the Flesh. If you think its not "control" that makes him do what he doesn't want to do and not do what he wants to do, because the evil inside of him is making the decisions, we have nothing to discuss. I can't even fathom that conclusion from the text.

    Bear with me, I'm going to post the most literal translation, and we have the benefit of it being in modern English. Nothing wrong with the King Jim, but for clarity, I'm going NASB.

    14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

    Sold into bondage, if you are bound what is the freedom?
    What makes him do other than what he would like to do? What he wants to do, he's not doing... why??????
    He's doing the thing he hates..> WHY?
    Because it's not him doing it, but it's HIM DOING IT else he couldn't say I am not doing what I want to do. There as an aspect of "him" inside of Him pulling the string. Use what word you want if force tickles your tongue the wrong way, but separating the "control" factor out of it, is a big apologetic move, not exegesis. All the metaphors he uses, point to control. And taking it out, makes a lot of verses just non sensical. Like gal 5:16. But those that feel they should take it out, to explain why they still do what they want to do, have to then dance around the words in the other verses to make them fit as written. I just take it as it is.

    The willing is present, but the doing is not present. <<<<<< that isn't about what he chose to do, else the doing would match the willing.
     
  18. ME>>>It just doesn't make sense this way to me.

    YOU>>>I am sorry to hear that. It makes perfect sense to me.
    Major, Yesterday at 12:54 PMReport
    Xian Pugilist said:
    BTW, A wiccan can grasp the earth Goddess, or Cernuno, or, etc.... does that make them more right than me or you?​
    YOU>>>When did a conversation turn into a contest of right and wrong?

    So, in review, you pretty condescendingly ignored my questions and comments in rebuttal and dismissed them with, "it maks sense to me...."

    I point out a wiccan can make sense of the earth Goddess, Cernunos, etc... does that make them right? Afterall YOUR STANDARD was what makes sense to you.

    Then you try to divert the conversation to making it about me trying to get over on you?

    Major, give me ANY reason I should try to reason with someone that pulls stunt like that?
     
  19. Trust you??/

    Why would I trust you when you havent even answered the question posed if you are a saved man or not. Some one else even claimed that you are not saved. He seemed to know a lot about you so I am still wondering why I would trust you.

    Talk?

    If all you wanted was to talk then why this............"
    "BTW, A wiccan can grasp the earth Goddess, or Cernuno, or, etc.... does that make them more right than me or you?"

    Now is that discussing or you playing a game?

    If you are only wanting to discuss things then why say.............
    "I'm working hard at keeping it conversational with you."
     
  20. It is actually quite simple.

    Faith in Christ brings salvation - the outworking of salvation is good works.

    Good works, holy deeds, righteous living are as a result of true salvation - do we always get it right no. Hence Paul's struggle with the flesh. We are not perfected the instant we are saved - we are changed slowly (sometimes fast) through the work of the Holy Spirit - called sanctification.

    True Christians hate it when they sin, non Christians are oblivious to sin. What is the difference between non Christians and Chrisitans - both are sinner but one party is declared righteous through the sacrifice of Christ and is seen as sinless.

    True Christians do works because they express mercy and justice in the image of Christ, they are not saved by works, that was accomplished the moment they put their faith in Jesus.
     

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