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Was Jesus God?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Klang, Aug 18, 2016.

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  1. I've always thought Jesus was the Son of God (and still do), and I always thought the vast majority of Christians believed so too, but a few years ago I was chatting to a baptist minister and to my surprise he was adamant that Jesus was God!
    I researched the matter on the internet and I was surprised again to find more Christians than I realised also believe he was God. What do CF members think?
    For the record this verse is the one that seems to fuel the "Jesus was God" school of thought-
    Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? (John 14:9)

    But there are lots more verses that indicate he wasn't God-
    Jesus said - "I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
    Jesus said:-"Why do you call me good? Only God is good" (Luke 18:19)
    Jesus said "Only God knows when Judgement Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
    High Priest asked-"Are you the Son of God?", Jesus replied - "I am" (Mark 14:61)
    Jesus said - "I only say what my Father tells me to say" (John 12:49)
    Jesus said to Peter:-"My Father has revealed to you that I am the Son of God" (Matt 16:15)
    Demon said- "Jesus Son of God don't torment me" (Mark 5:7-9)
    And of course God himself said "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased, listen to him" (Matt 17:5)
  2. A Friendly Reminder to think before you post in this thread. This topic in the Past has caused Quarreling and will be monitored for any such behavior.
    Thank You and have a great day
    autumn oddity and Major say Amen and like this.
  3. So think about this. Jesus is/was/will be God forever. However, Jesus chose to relinquish His authority, and came and lived as a MAN, 100%. He had to learn obedience, He was ignorant, He was in pain, He hungered, He was sad. But after dying as a Man, the Man, He rose from the dead with His full authority again. So ALL those verses were true at the time He spoke them because He was 100% Man Who chose NOT to use any of His Godly authority and lived as we should - by following the Holy Spirit.

    Context is pivotal.
    KingJ, Angela333 and Fish Catcher Jim says Amen and like this.
  4. A couple more points to ponder- Jesus often retired to be alone to pray to God, so who was he praying to, himself?
    Also when his disciples said "teach us to pray", he began with- "Our Father which art in heaven.." which indicates God above is the recipient of prayer.
    But anyway, is it really important whether anybody believes he was or wasn't God?
  5. Exactly and this was God's perfect plan for only a "man" could take on All Sin and only a "man" could die. A spirit will not ever die.
    Abdicate and Melizza say Amen and like this.
  6. Only God could do the things Jesus did.. God wears many hats...he is the father, son and comforter.. In the same way one woman can be a daughter,sister and mother.

    Jesus was and is god
    Angela333, JG27_chili, Major and 1 other person say Amen and like this.
  7. IMO the thing we have to realise is the bigger picture here.

    In the beginning and mainly throughout the OT God communicated with man directly. Yes, there were Prophets who spoke on behalf of God but throughout the OT time it was only God who interacted with man. God saw how evil the world was becoming (many times) and so, in His Grace and Mercy, He decided to come down and manifest into a human, into Jesus, His Son.

    Jesus/God lived amongst all kinds and types of people in human form in order to relate to the people. This would better convict man of who Jesus was and why He came to the earth (to Save us from sins).

    Further into the NT, as Jesus promised us, He said that He must leave the earth (after Ressurection) in order for God's advocate, The Holy Spirit to come.

    So in all sense, yes God is Jesus and The Holy Spirit. The drive is God's Love for us even though at times we are un-deserving of it.
    JG27_chili likes this.
  8. As our moderator @fishcatherjim has correctly said, this kind of thinking has and will cause arguments on a Christian forum.

    I do not say this to anger or cause alarm, but as one who has studied cults for many years, may I say to you that your thesis is the foundation of the teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses, which is in fact not a Christian denomination at all.

    If I am wrong then please forgive me of my comments. But if I am right, or close to being correct then please pray for the Holy Spirit to apply the following words of Bible truth to you.

    Jesus is the God-Man! Jesus is fully God and fully man, and the fact of His incarnation is of utmost importance. He lived a human life but did not possess a sin nature as we do. He was tempted but never sinned. Sin entered the world through Adam, and Adam’s sinful nature has been transferred to every baby born into the world—except for Jesus. Because Jesus did not have a human father, He did not inherit a sin nature. He possessed the divine nature from His Heavenly Father.

    It is imperative that we all understand that since the fall of man, the only way to be made right with God has been the blood of an innocent sacrifice (Leviticus 9:2; Numbers 28:19; Deuteronomy 15:21; Hebrews 9:22). Jesus was the final, perfect sacrifice that satisfied forever God's wrath against sin according to Hebrews 10:14. His divine nature made Him fit for the work of Redeemer; His human body allowed Him to shed the blood necessary to redeem. No human being with a sin nature could pay such a debt. No one else could meet the requirements to become the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world according to Matthew 26:28; 1 John 2:2.

    IF, IF, If Jesus were merely a good man as some claim, then He had a sin nature and was not perfect. In that case, His death and resurrection would have no power to save anyone and we would all be lost in our sin and be destined for hell. Now there is no other way possible to present this fact.
    I am not anyone's judge but I can say with all confidence that if anyone does not accept that teaching, then they are not saved and are still in their sin.

    Because Jesus was God in the flesh, He alone could pay the debt we owed to God. His victory over death and the grave won the victory for everyone who puts their trust in Him.
    KingJ, autumn oddity and Melizza says Amen and like this.
  9. Again, this is one of the fundamental questions in the Jehovah Witness's teachings. You may or may not be a JW but nevertherless, this is one of their fundamentals.

    Beyond that then is the fact that he Bible teaches that he was both God and man in Col. 2:9; John 8:58 with Ex. 3:14. Also, Jesus has two natures.
    One is His "Divinity" and the other is His "Humanity". Therefore, we will see two types of scripture concerning Jesus: those that seem to focus on His divine side and those that seem to focus on His human side. The Jehovah's Witnesses are simply ignoring, or changing, the divine side scriptures and concentrating on those that describe His human side.

    Basic, fundament Christian understanding is that Jesus prayed to the Father because His position was different from that of God the Father--not His nature. Heb. 2:9 says that Jesus was made for a little while lower than the angels and Gal. 4:4 says, He was under the Law. Therefore, as a man he was in a lesser position than the Father but not different in nature. This would also explain why he grew in wisdom and stature according to Luke 2:52.

    By comparison, a husband is the head of the family and the wife is not. Though their positions are different, he has greater authority; their natures are the same. This is how it works with Jesus. His nature is the same as the Father, but he was sent by the Father as told to us in John 6:44 and was in a lesser position due to his incarnation and being under the Law.

    I hope this helps your understanmding.
    JG27_chili and Melizza say Amen and like this.
  10. Blessings to you. I would like to point out to you that I agree with you completely when you said.......
    "In the beginning and mainly throughout the OT God communicated with man directly".

    I would add only that IMO the Bible teaches that it was in fact Jesus who did that communicating and interaction. The pre-incarnate Christ!!!

    Colossians 1:16........
    "For by Him (Christ) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him."

    Now for proper context lets add Luke 24:27.......
    "And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself."

    What then does all of this mean??????

    It means that when God went walking through the Garden looking for Adam and Eve, it was the pre-incarnate Christ.

    The man who came to see Abraham and Sara was the pre-incarnate Christ.

    The man who spoke to Moses out of the burning bush was the pre-incarnate Christ.

    The man by the river who Daniel saw was the pre-incarnate Christ.

    The man in the fiery furnace was the pre-incarnate Christ.

    The captain of the host of heaven who strengthened Joshua was the pre-incarnate Christ.

    We can go on and on but I think you can see my point. Christ has from the beginning been the one who interacts with humanity because He is the one who created humanity and ultimately died to ssave all humanity from the judgment that is coming.
    JG27_chili and Melizza say Amen and like this.
  11. Well Klang, this subject has prbably been done to death, but here are few verses to consider. Even if you are unable to change your view, you can at least understand where others are coming from.
    John 8:58. Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
    You can read and study this in context if you like.
    The statement of Jesus here has two distinct tynes. Firstly, the obvious that Jesus predates Abraham, and the second is the use of the divine identifier......"I am"
    Back when Moses was looking for a name that would identify the Lord to the people of Israel, the following disclosure was made:
    Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
    The phrase "I am" was given as a means of identifying the power and authority behind Moses' words That is why when Jesus used the very same identifier, and note, also taking that same power and authority to Himself, the Jews were more that a little disturbed.
    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Kjv
    I have used the Kjv here because I consider the Esv (though helpful to the discussion) not a faithful translation of the particular verse.
    Be that as it may, John was raised as a prophet to prepare the hearts of many people for the coming ministry of Jesus.
    His testimony was
    This witness who was raised to prepare the way for Jesus testifies thus::
    John 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")
    A little later we are told of John:
    John 1:23 He said, "I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, 'Make straight the way of the Lord,' as the prophet Isaiah said."
    Now consider that if the way of the Lord has been made straight, where it was formerly not so straight, It should be clear that John's testimony concerning Jesus' identity is clear and straight forward, free of hidden interpretations and cryptic meanings.....we can take it as it lies.
    And that means that Jesus is very God.
    hope this helps someone and also you Klang
    KingJ and Major say Amen and like this.
  12. Good stuff my brother.
  13. Thanks for your responses guys and gals, but i'm not a JW and I'm not a member of any other denomination either; I'm a 'Freelance Christian' which means I'm free to think for myself and don't have to toe the line of any denomination or let them do my thinking for me..;)
    Another question to toss into the playpen- If Jesus was God, why didn't he say so straight out, instead of calling himself the Son of God?
  14. Amen! Thanks for that.

    The Gospel of John 1:1 also supports this: "In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God and the Word was God".

    Which means (like you mentioned), Jesus already existed in the beginning of time! It's beautiful how John mentioned this in his gospel in the NT to show us that Jesus is the Son of God, the Living God.

    Major likes this.
  15. God bless you! I am thrilled to know I helped you in some way.
    Melizza likes this.
  16. To be sure, I was not saying your were. My point is that you should be aware that you are espousing one of their major tennets of doctrine.

  17. Jesus was saying in the language of His day......... “I am Israel’s God.”

    So did Jesus say He was God? Yes He did! But maybe not in the way you might have expected him to. I encourage you to consider the fact that we should not confuse the directness of a claim with the existence of a claim.” The historical evidence shows that Jesus actually claimed to be the God of Israel.

    We know that to be true simply because when Jesus said in John 10:33....... “I and the Father are one.”
    Jesus’ original believed he said He was God, in fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there!
    Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God”.

    Indeed, Jesus didn’t have to say the words “I am God,” in order to claim to be divine. But why is this a problem? Look, I don’t have to say the exact words, “I am married” to indicate that I’m married. I can tell you, “I’m her husband,” or “this is my wife,” or “it’s our 16th wedding anniversary.” The question is, what did the people who were actually a part of conversation think about what Jesus said?
    KingJ and Melizza say Amen and like this.
  18. G'day Klang, this that you pose is a very good and profound thought provoking question...IMO.
    The quicky answer as to why He called Himself the Son of God is because He came and dwelt amongst us as a Son. He had a mission to carry out that was best served by being a Son obedient to the Father....a role that we are to follow as His disciples.
    John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
    Just note that the Word, (which was in the beginning) became flesh...see also John 1:1

    I fear this is pitifully inadequate, but I am short on time just at present and hope to return later today (my time zone)
    Major likes this.
  19. The only thing Jesus had over us, in the flesh, was that He was born without sin. Otherwise, He lived exactly as we do, except He never sinned. He lived by and walked in the Spirit, just as we are to do. He prayed, just as we are to do. He obeyed, just as we are to do. He died to self, just as we are to do. He lived for others, just as we are to do. He cried, just like we do. He hungered, just like we do. He prophesied via the Spirit, just as we are to do. He resisted the devil, just as we are to do. He learned, just as we do. He breathed, just as we do. He ate, just as we do. He slept, just as we do. He gave help to those in need, just as we are to do. He reconciled us to God, just as we are to do. He healed the sick, just as we are to do.

    He is the Head, we are the body. We are one, just as He is One with the Father.
    loriT and Melizza say Amen and like this.
  20. Call me a wimp, but I don't think I dare argue with God..;)-
    “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” (Matt 3:17).
    In Gethsemane Jesus showed his human-ness when he said-
    “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done" (Matt 26:42), so I don't think he was talking to himself..

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