Was Jesus God In The New Testament And The Old Testament?

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Jacob sander, Mar 12, 2014.

?

Jesus God in OT and NT?

  1. Yes

    13 vote(s)
    92.9%
  2. No

    1 vote(s)
    7.1%
  1. Title is pretty clear.
    Because there are many verses that have confused me and dont add up.

    Position: No religion, i believe in God.

    Practice all three books of God and have not decided which religion is correct.

    Thanks, bless all!
     
  2. Well, the way I understand things is that Jesus the son of Mary came into being when he was born. (Note the rocket science here):)
    But Jesus as the Christ of God, as the Son of God is eternal.
    There is much confusion brought about mainly because we have difficulty in grasping the eternal nature of God.
    Jesu said on more than one occasion that He and the Father are one. That puts Him right into the Old Testament.
    It is difficult to fully address your concerns without a step by step walk through the issues.
    For me, I believe that God has been wronged by our sinning. So who can possibly arbitrate and represent God?? Only God Himself can do this.
    Man on the other hand must plead guilty and seek clemency. OK, so who can represent man?? A sheep? a bullock? No of course not only a man can represent mankind.
    In Jesus, we have the perfect mediator between man and God. As the Son of Go0d, He is God, as the son of Mary he is also human just like you and I except that unlike us he is without sin. Therefore as the Son of God He represents God, as the son of man he represents us. Now the really terrific news is that through faith in Christ alone, through Grace alone, we have forgiveness..we have obtained clemency. Jesus' death on the cross and subsequent resurrection is our guarantee of forgiveness
    I hope this helps as a starter.
     
  3. #3 KingJ, Mar 12, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
    Christianity is correct ;).

    All scripture OT points to Jesus. The very reason Abraham was chosen and the sacrifice he made being symbolic. Jesus is God in the flesh. He was / is God from day 1 to infinity.

    Reasons I disagree with Judaism:

    1. Ignorance of Jesus > madness http://www.thesacredpage.com/2008/04/napoleons-proof-for-divinity-of-jesus.html

    Reasons I disagree with Islam:

    1. All prophets went to the Jews and ...... one.....who happened to be the final....one....went to the Arabs. Makes no sense.
    2. Jesus > all prophets inclusive of Mohammed. Simple use of matter between ears.

    Just remember, you will not find God with intellect alone. You can sit in the right religion / church your whole life and still find yourself in hell one-day. God is knocking on the door to your heart right now!! Rev 3:20. Let Him in by following Acts 3:19; James 4:6; Matt 16:24. This will enable John 3:16 and 1 Cor 12:3 to be real to you .
     
  4. well im a bible learner and learned a lot, i dont believe in a lot of things you said ANYMORE because i actually went im depth of the book.
    If jesus was the same god he would have mentioned himself coming in the OT.
    Therefore i dont think he can be lol.
    Also do you believe these because you read the bible or because fellow Christians believe this.
    Once i read the bible i started praying to god like jesus told me to, cuz he even prayed lol gods cant pray

    Also you mentioned how jesus says they are one... What about when he says the father is greater than me. Maybe you can help me understand better. Bcus there are many verses that distinguish between jesus and god thats why the bible confuses me
     
  5. We can see that you are confused. I am confused in that you said..."I am a Bible learner", and then immediately said ..................
    " i dont believe in a lot of things you said ANYMORE because i actually went im depth of the book."

    That is a real oxymoron!

    IF you had been reading and learning, then it would be clear to you that Jesus DID in fact mention Himself in the Old Test.

    Do a search on google for "The Angel of the Lord" and you will see the number of times that the pre-incarnate Christ was here working with and through men. The "Angel of the Lord" IS the designated reference of Christ.

    As for me. I believe what I believe because I accepted Jesus as my Saviour and He paid the penalty for MY sins. Then as I read the complete account of God working in the hearts of men, my faith grew in the knowledge I was able to understand and it in fact confirmed my faith.

    That is IMO what you need to do. COME to Christ for the forgivness of your sins, THEN the Bible will become very clear to you!!!!
     
  6. I think the first thing that should be considered is if the Word of God is 100% true to you and you don't consider the other false gods men have made up.

    Modelism, Trinity, Oneness, Symbolism, are spiritually discerned. If you have not decided which (g)od to choose, then it would be impossible to use Worldly wisdom to discuss positions of Polytheism or Monotheism. It would also be a waste of time.

    Discussing if Jesus is Lord or not would benefit you far more. The unsaved often don't know the right questions to ask, So we can help with that.
     
  7. Well, im not the only one, you can ask any random christian and they wouldnt know where to being.
    They would just baffle about everything.

    I actually read the bible, BEFORE i ever read it i believed jesus who everyone thinks he is.
    But after I actually read it, I understood the truth.

    And to prove God told me to continue because your on the right path.
    So ill take gods word over ANYBODY anyday.

    Back to the point, If you want to start that discussion on this thread no problem for me, I can point out over 100 verses where Jesus never wanted anyone to claim he is god, but his message was for everyone to worship the one and only god, That HE Jesus even prayed to.
    Just like Moses, Abraham, David, Jacob, Soloman and the rest of the guys that god also called SON and had some spirit of god with them..
    Jesus was no different.

    I read that CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS themselves claim that Jesus and that Father werent declared as ONE up untill the third century.
    Also, the bible claimed everyone was expecting Jesus to die for sins, and claim that Jesus said that, YET everyone of his disciples were SHOCKED when Jesus died.
    So Jesus never said anything about him dying for our sins.

    Infact, Jesus helped people CLEAR their sins BEFORE any Crusification, John the baptist also baptized people to cleanse them from sins.

    Paul, is the one who created the idea of Jesus died for our sins, not Jesus.

    That is why there is not one verse where Jesus claimed to be God, or to worship him, BUT there is many verses Where Jesus said to WORSHIP GOD the one and only god and that Jesus himself is nothing like God..

    So most of the christians followed PAuls idea, and over centurys up till today that tradition has grown into PART of religion, When not one of these christians no the truth.

    If they do they wouldnt believe in Jesus like this.

    Bless all
     
  8. And that is another MAIN point,

    The gospels all preach that JESUS was PREACHING a GOSPEL.

    So none of these gospels are any of Jesus's words but marks lukes etc..
     
  9. I am not sure who claims all this. There was just one sin Jesus mentioned, Paul is 100% correct in everything he wrote also and told us why in Hebrews Jesus gave his life.

    To destroy the Work of the devil.

    Also Jesus called us gods, (theos) so I am not sure why your hung up on the god thing.

    Your quoting what you believe people believe, I am scripture only though and you should stick with scripture only, not caring what you think others think.
     
  10. Never, What people believe is a bonus.
    I only state facts from the bible as well.

    If jesus Gave us his life, and the gospels claim that Jesus told these people, also in the OT they claim that jesus said he will die,

    So why when it happened Every one was shocked?

    Why didnt all the Jews convert? If it is in the OT.
    Because it never said that, nor did Jesus say it..

    and you still havent explained how sins were cleansed before the crusifcation, If jesus dieing was the only way.

    1 John 1:9
    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    I feel like everyone got the wrong message because of Paul

    Also when you explain how sins were cleansed before,
    Also explain verses that BAFFLE ME? because these are the main verses that struck me

    Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me
    Jhn12:49
    For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
    Jhn8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
    Jhn14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
     
  11. Well, we can certainly discuss your concerns. First of all, may I say to you that from what you are saying, it is obvious that you have been deceived by the anti-Christian group called the "Jesus Seminar". It is a group of approx. 50 individuals whose claim to fame is to be skeptical of the Word of God. About 7 years ago, ABC News with Peter Jennings did a two hour special on their views. Their criticism's are very, very deceptive and the key to understanding the times we are living in today is to know and grasp the fact that "DECEPTION" is the 1st sign Jesus warns us about when asked, "when will be the end of the world".

    Two of their conclusions were for example, that Jesus was walking on frozen water rather than on it as listed in the Scriptures. Then they stated that following Jesus' lead, rich people shared their food to feed the 5,000; and then that Jesus had unusual abilities to utilize folk medicine on people's illnesses.

    You said first of all...........
    " I can point out over 100 verses where Jesus never wanted anyone to claim he is god, but his message was for everyone to worship the one and only god, That HE Jesus even prayed to."


    Actually the Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in Jn 10:30..........
    “I and the Father are one.”

    Then we need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: Jn 10:33.............
    “You, a mere man, claim to be God”.

    The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared in Jn.8:58.........
    “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence.


    Jn 8:58........... is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!”

    Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded in Lev 24:16.

    John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: Jn 1:1, 14..............
    “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh”.

    These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh.


    Acts 20:28 tells us,.............
    “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.”

    Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!



    Then we have this comment................
    "So Jesus never said anything about him dying for our sins."


    John 14:6..........
    "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”.

    In this statement, Jesus declares the reason for His birth, death and resurrection—to provide the way to heaven for sinful mankind, who could never get there on their own.

    God declared that all who sin will die, both physically and spiritually. This is the fate of all mankind. But God, in His grace and mercy, provided a way out of this dilemma, the shed blood of His perfect Son on the cross.

    God declared that “without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness” in Hebrews 9:22, but through the shedding of blood, redemption is provided.

    The Law of Moses in Exodus 20:2-17 provided a way for the people to be considered “sinless” or “right” in God’s eyes—the offering of animals sacrificed for every sin they committed. These sacrifices were only temporary, though, and were really a foreshadowing of the perfect, once-for-all sacrifice of Christ on the cross as seen in Heb 10:10.

    This is why Jesus came and why He died, to become the ultimate and the final sacrifice, the perfect (without blemish) sacrifice for our sins (Colossians 1:22; 1 Peter 1:19).

    Now you say.........
    Jesus said to WORSHIP GOD the one and only god and that Jesus himself is nothing like God..

    The Bible says, “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made” (John 1:3). This includes all the stars all the original animals and plants, and even the angels (Colossians 1:15-17).

    It is important not be confused and DECEIVED. God did not create Jesus. Jesus is God, and he has always existed.
    Jesus proved that he is God by doing many things that only God can do. These are called miracles. He made dead people alive. He walked across a great lake. He made blind eyes see perfectly again. He healed deadly diseases with a word.

     
    Jerilee and KingJ say Amen and like this.
  12. Well let me first let me start off by saying No one has deceived me, and no one Can.:)
    What ever is marked with a - please answer

    **When you say "Actually the Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in Jn 10:30..........
    “I and the Father are one.”**

    - If JESUS never declared it himself, why would you do otherwise?
    You say "I and the Father are one" Yes, what about "The father is greater than i"
    ^ Please answer. (I feel like, you cant say hes god because PEOPLE interptrate him as saying hes god because of that line, Its weird because the KORAN also mentions how JESUS had the spirit of God in him, But only to send the message that god wanted people to hear, People took the message wrong and claimed him as god)
    Also, This was in John, Why did Mark Luke Mathew who were EARLIER gospels never mention these...



    ** Then we need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: Jn 10:33.............
    “You, a mere man, claim to be God”. **

    - Jesus still never claimed, people claimed, do you follow Jesus or the the jews,,?
    Mark 10:18
    Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.

    Jesus's words..
    -Explain this verse please^ Thanks.


    honestly who knows maybe i am wrong, but NONE of this is my opinion, so if you can help me understand with the POINTS I AM stuck on, maybe you can help.

    Once again, And the word was god, and the word became flesh..
    Yes, JOHN not God saying this,, Also

    He didnt say and Jesus became flesh, he said the Word

    the word was the Original GOSPEL that Jesus preached, not the gospel of mark luke mathew john, Jesus never preached those.
    In these bibles they say JEsus preached the gospel, what gospel? The original word of god, that no one has seen,

    Honestly this is a theory why i think the koran came,

    Bible was fixing the torah,
    Koran fixing the bible.

    It actually makes sense

    "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,"
    Jesus never prayed to jesus, he prayed to god.

    EVERYTHING current christians believe is because of the Myths and traditions created by men, that made it into religion.

    Its sad, Jesus never wanted any of this..

    I dont believe you answered why Sins were being cleansed even before Jesus was crusified .

    Bless


     
  13. Jesus said, the world is condemned for not believing on me. I can show you 3 places he said that.
    Jesus never said Him dying was part of that, just believing on him.

    Jesus was the sacrifice for the World for Sin, Blood of bulls and goats covered sin.

    1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Jesus never came for the main purpose of washing sin away. That was not the main purpose.

    However if you think the Koran fixes anything, then there is not much else to talk about until you get that confusion out of the way.
     
  14. #14 calvin, Mar 12, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
    They were shocked and did not believe because they were looking for a savior who was going to be a mighty warrior King who would rid them of the Roman occupation and go on to rule the world. Passages like :
    Isa 61:1-8 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
    to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn;
    to grant to those who mourn in Zion— to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit; that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he may be glorified.

    They shall build up the ancient ruins; they shall raise up the former devastations; they shall repair the ruined cities, the devastations of many generations.
    Strangers shall stand and tend your flocks; foreigners shall be your plowmen and vinedressers;
    but you shall be called the priests of the LORD; they shall speak of you as the ministers of our God; you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their glory you shall boast.
    Instead of your shame there shall be a double portion; instead of dishonor they shall rejoice in their lot; therefore in their land they shall possess a double portion; they shall have everlasting joy.
    For I the LORD love justice; I hate robbery and wrong; I will faithfully give them their recompense, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
    These prophesies were indeed fulfilled by Christ cf Luke 4:18 however for a people who were living under Roman occupation and oppression, these words were taken to mean that Messiah would beat the Romans up.
    Psalm 22 is a good example of Old Testament prophesy concerning Christ and when considered in the light of the crucifixion, we can see that the the unbelief of the Jews was foretold. So the Jews did not convert then.... for the same reason the Jews of today, and also the non Jews don't convert.
    2Cor 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
    Look back to the incident where Abraham was going to sacrifice his first born son. When the boy asked about a lamb for the sacrifice, Abraham responded in faith that the Lord would provide for the sacrifice.
    Gen 22:7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, "My father!" And he said, "Here I am, my son." He said, "Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?"
    Gen 22:8 Abraham said, "God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son." So they went both of them together.
    There is much that could be said about sin sacrifice but in the end sacrifice of Bulls and sheep etc is not, can not be payment for a debt. But it can be and was an expression of faith in and a longing for that forgiveness. Only in Christ's death and resurrection could that forgiveness be finally realized. Their faith in God redeeming them was met in Christ at a future time.
    You mean John??
    As I said in my first post Jesus as Mary's son was a man. The Jews of the day saw only a man standing before them. They could not see the glorified Christ...
    Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
    Mat 17:2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.
    Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.
    also
    Mar 9:2 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them,
    Mar 9:3 and his clothes became radiant, intensely white, as no one on earth could bleach them.
    Mar 9:4 And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.
    This was a special preview so to speak just for a select few. So Jesus knowing the Jews saw only the human part or visage of His totality, had to speak in a way that they could reasonably understand and accept.
    Take the last passage you supplied::John 14:24.
    Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
    This follows on from :
    Joh 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, "Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?"
    Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
    Jesus is claiming equality with the Father and is talking of post resurrection, or more properly post Pentecost indwelling by the Holy Spirit.
    In v24, Jesus is speaking to those who do not accept that He is indeed one with the Father and in effect saying 'OK, so you don't believe I am HE, at least believe that what I say is of God.'
     
    Major likes this.
  15. #15 Major, Mar 12, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
    - #1.
    "You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.'" ....John 14:28.
    Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God but because Jesus was also a man; and as a man, he was in a lower position. He was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." (
    Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ."

    Jesus has two natures my friend: divine and human. Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was merely acknowledging the fact that He was also a man.


    - #2.
    Jesus still never claimed, people claimed, do you follow Jesus or the the jews,,?
    Mark 10:18
    Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone

    The verse in Mark does not deny that Jesus is God. Many verses claim that ....Jn. 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8.......
    And He Himself claims so in Jn. 8:58; 10:30; 11:25. The response here in Mark is aimed at the young ruler's attitude toward himself in the preceeding verses. Verse 20 indicates that he considered himself to be good and Jesus wanted him to know of whom that adjective should be exclusively used.


    Then you said............
    I dont believe you answered why Sins were being cleansed even before Jesus was crucified.


    I did not respond to that comment because it is wrong. Sins were not cleansed in the Old Test. before Christ came and died. They were "covered". That is why the blood of a sacrifice was poured over the Mercy Seat on top of the Ark of the Covenant. That was what the Law directed the High priests to do.

    All people have sinned against God. But, God is infinitely holy and righteous full of grace and mercy! He must punish the sinner, who is the Law- breaker. If He didn't, then His law is not Law for there is no law that is a law without a punishment.

    The punishment for breaking the Law is death, separation from God. Therefore, we sinners need a way to escape the righteous judgment of God. Since we are stained by sin and cannot keep the Law of God, then the only one who could do what we cannot is God Himself. That is why Jesus is God in flesh. He is both divine and human. He was made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and He fulfilled it perfectly. Therefore, His sacrifice to God the Father on our behalf is of infinite value and is sufficient to cleanse all people from their sins and undo the offense to God!

    You said....the Koran (Should be Quran) fixed the Bible. I thought you said you COULD NOT BE DECEIVED????

    The Bible was written by 42 men over 1500 years and has no mistakes or contradictions. For 2000 years men all over this world have tried in vain to show the errors contained in it and now all of a sudden YOU have the ability to do that ????
    The Quran was written by Muhammad's secretary in 550 AD. See, DECEPTION!!!
    Muhammad could neither read nor write and claimed to have gotten the Quran from Gabriel. (DECEPTION).
    That is the same claim Joseph Smith made when he claimed to have received the Book of Mormon and it is as flawed as is the Quran.

    Muhammad was either insane or suffered from epilepsy and you think what he wrote fixed the Bible???

    I can not help you with your thinking. All I can say is that it is very flawed.
     
  16. Joh 14:22Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, "Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?"
    Joh 14:23Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
    Jesus is claiming equality with the Father and is talking of post resurrection, or more properly post Pentecost indwelling by the Holy Spirit.


    Is that how you interpret it?
    or is that how John did?
    Or is that how jesus meant it?

    Only person that made Jesus more higher than he was John, changing the bible from lord, god, or such scenes.

    Jesus answered, If anyone loves me, HE WILL KEEP MY WORD

    I thought you claim Jesus was the word,

    See john never meant Jesus was the word , but made the word mean WORD.
    The gospel.

    Jesus came to preach the gospel, he said if you love him, keep the word, then god will love you.

    It just is wrong the way people interpret it thinking this way or that. Jesus himself never meant any of that.





    I think this was God talking, you think this is Jesus
    Deuteronomy 18:20
    But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

    You dont think god was talking about Jesus??
     


  17. Well i did studies on both books, not very different.

    The bible was written by 42 men?

    That is why i will not continue under christianity, i believe a book written by god was once there, then CORRUPTED by men

    Why do you think God sent Jesus with the ORIGINAL gospel?
    To fix the torah, Source: bible itself

    The bible then got corrupted by men as well, thats when the Koran came out.

    There are verses in koran that scientist up till now discovered, and have converted into islam because they claim there is no way men can have known this 1500 years ago without a microscope. (Just one example)
    So they claimed it was god.

    Koran "Quran" says Jesus was indeed the gods prophet, and indeed had the holy spirit in him.
    Just not the holy spirit defined today.

    He had the holy spirit of god in him to speak for god to the people, he needed a human to do the work.

    Thats why he told Mary, You will be the Mother of Christ, normal human, just special.

    Why do you think in the bible jesus says, with GODS COMMAND i do, because he says I HAVE NO AUTHORITY
    the FATHER IS GREATER THAN I

    whom did he pray to?
    I dont believe you answered that.

    DId he pray to Jesus?he is god, gods dont need to pray... did abraham pray to jesus or god
    or moses?
     
  18. just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
    Mathew 20:28

    I dont know how clearer it can be,

    He gave his life to let everyone know that there is one god, He died trying to preach it...
     
  19. Sounds to me like you need to go to a Muslim web site. I believe they will receive their own nonsense better than it will be received here.

    You claimed no religion, but You do nothing but say how the Koran fixes things. Seems to me your confused because your actually Muslim. You should go find a Muslim web site.
     
  20. #20 calvin, Mar 12, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
    I doubt he needs to go to a muslin web site, he seems to have come from one.
     
    Major likes this.

Share This Page