Wages Of Sin?

[porcupine73]

Re: Aionios, here are the listings from the King James Concordance to see how the word is used in Scripture. (Not directed at any particular poster, it's just something I'm looking at in my own study and thought it might be useful to others, I had to post it as code else it seems when it tries to make links out of the references it 'butchers' it):

G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios
Total KJV Occurrences: 71
eternal, 42
Mat 19:16, Mat 25:46, Mar 3:29, Mar 10:17, Mar 10:30, Luk 10:25, Luk 18:18, Joh 3:15, Joh 4:36, Joh 5:39, Joh 6:54, Joh 6:68, Joh 10:28, Joh 12:25, Joh 17:2-3 (2), Act 13:48, Rom 2:7, Rom 5:21, Rom 6:23, 2Co 4:17-18 (2), 2Co 5:1, 1Ti 6:12, 1Ti 6:19, 2Ti 2:10, Tit 1:2, Tit 3:7, Heb 5:9, Heb 6:2, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:14-15 (2), 1Pe 5:10, 1Jo 1:2, 1Jo 2:25, 1Jo 3:15, 1Jo 5:11, 1Jo 5:13, 1Jo 5:20, Jud 1:7, Jud 1:21
everlasting, 25
Mat 18:8, Mat 19:29, Mat 25:41, Mat 25:46, Luk 16:9, Luk 18:30, Joh 3:16, Joh 3:36, Joh 4:14, Joh 5:24, Joh 6:27, Joh 6:40, Joh 6:47, Joh 12:50, Act 13:46, Rom 6:22, Rom 16:26, Gal 6:8, 2Th 1:9, 2Th 2:16, 1Ti 6:16 (2), Heb 13:20, 2Pe 1:11, Rev 14:6
world, 3
Rom 16:25, 2Ti 1:9, Tit 1:2
ever, 1
Phm 1:15

 

[CCW95A]

Jesus,s sacrifice of himself for mankind was an everlasting sacrifice. His blood will always be sprinkled upon the mercy seat of God.
His hands, and feet will always have the nail scars, and his side will always have the scar of being pierced through.

Heb 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.
Heb 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

 

[Euphemia]

Jesus,s sacrifice of himself for mankind was an everlasting sacrifice. His blood will always be sprinkled upon the mercy seat of God.
His hands, and feet will always have the nail scars, and his side will always have the scar of being pierced through.

Heb 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.
Heb 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Exactly!

 

[Phoneman777]

So we can conclude the rich man was not in torment? No, this is not a parable but an actual account. Show me any place in scripture that Jesus uses a persons name in a parable.

Yes the Rich Man was tormented but if for a moment we concede that this is a parable, then he is a symbol of the Jewish nation, and Lazarus s symbol of the Gentiles, and the table a symbol of their once allotted blessing and privileged position which they sought to withhold from the Gentiles. Hades need not be anything but the "grave" to which the nation symbolically succumbed to when God took the kingdom from them and gave it to the Gentiles, who are now comforted by the Comforter, the Holy Spirit.

The torment is the curse that came upon the Jews for rejecting the Messiah, which Paul claims is God's "wrath (which has) come upon them to the uttermost."

 

[Euphemia]

Yes the Rich Man was tormented but if for a moment we concede that this is a parable, then he is a symbol of the Jewish nation, and Lazarus s symbol of the Gentiles, and the table a symbol of their once allotted blessing and privileged position which they sought to withhold from the Gentiles. Hades need not be anything but the "grave" to which the nation symbolically succumbed to when God took the kingdom from them and gave it to the Gentiles, who are now comforted by the Comforter, the Holy Spirit.

The torment is the curse that came upon the Jews for rejecting the Messiah, which Paul claims is God's "wrath (which has) come upon them to the uttermost."

Hades IS the grave! It is where the spirits of the unrighteous go to await their final judgment. It certainly isn't a fun place to find oneself in. However eternal hell, the lake of fire, is their final destination.

 

[CCW95A]

Yes the Rich Man was tormented but if for a moment we concede that this is a parable, then he is a symbol of the Jewish nation, and Lazarus s symbol of the Gentiles, and the table a symbol of their once allotted blessing and privileged position which they sought to withhold from the Gentiles. Hades need not be anything but the "grave" to which the nation symbolically succumbed to when God took the kingdom from them and gave it to the Gentiles, who are now comforted by the Comforter, the Holy Spirit.

The torment is the curse that came upon the Jews for rejecting the Messiah, which Paul claims is God's "wrath (which has) come upon them to the uttermost."

This is were you are erroring, God does not torment anyone. Every human being on planet earth have a conscience in them that tells them when they do wrong. That is called guilt, shame, and fear which is torment. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can take away that condemnation. Did you notice in the Revelations, "it was the smoke of their torment that rises" not the torment of God? Rev 14:11

 

[Phoneman777]

You might want to tell Jesus he was not talking to a dead man when he was fellowshipping with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of transfiguration.

Both have been translated. They were very much alive.

 

[Phoneman777]

H

Re: Aionios, here are the listings from the King James Concordance to see how the word is used in Scripture. (Not directed at any particular poster, it's just something I'm looking at in my own study and thought it might be useful to others, I had to post it as code else it seems when it tries to make links out of the references it 'butchers' it):

G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios
Total KJV Occurrences: 71
eternal, 42
Mat 19:16, Mat 25:46, Mar 3:29, Mar 10:17, Mar 10:30, Luk 10:25, Luk 18:18, Joh 3:15, Joh 4:36, Joh 5:39, Joh 6:54, Joh 6:68, Joh 10:28, Joh 12:25, Joh 17:2-3 (2), Act 13:48, Rom 2:7, Rom 5:21, Rom 6:23, 2Co 4:17-18 (2), 2Co 5:1, 1Ti 6:12, 1Ti 6:19, 2Ti 2:10, Tit 1:2, Tit 3:7, Heb 5:9, Heb 6:2, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:14-15 (2), 1Pe 5:10, 1Jo 1:2, 1Jo 2:25, 1Jo 3:15, 1Jo 5:11, 1Jo 5:13, 1Jo 5:20, Jud 1:7, Jud 1:21
everlasting, 25
Mat 18:8, Mat 19:29, Mat 25:41, Mat 25:46, Luk 16:9, Luk 18:30, Joh 3:16, Joh 3:36, Joh 4:14, Joh 5:24, Joh 6:27, Joh 6:40, Joh 6:47, Joh 12:50, Act 13:46, Rom 6:22, Rom 16:26, Gal 6:8, 2Th 1:9, 2Th 2:16, 1Ti 6:16 (2), Heb 13:20, 2Pe 1:11, Rev 14:6
world, 3
Rom 16:25, 2Ti 1:9, Tit 1:2
ever, 1
Phm 1:15

How can Aionois the adjective only mean "eternity" when its root Aion can mean temporal OR eternal?

 

[CCW95A]

Both have been translated. They were very much alive.

Not Moses, he died. That is why I said Jesus had fellowship with a dead man, Moses.

Who do you think we have fellowship with?

 

[CCW95A]

I think the main reason why people want to believe in a "annihilation" theory is because they do not believe a Holy loving God would torment anyone for eternity. I agree with them totally. God does not torment anyone. Jesus cames to take away our torment not give it which was the result of sin in us. It is our own hearts that condemns us when we sin. If our heart condemns us, God is greater than our hearts and knows all things. 1 John 3:20

 

[Euphemia]

How can Aionois the adjective only mean "eternity" when its root Aion can mean temporal OR eternal?

We know by its use what the proper implication is:


G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

G104
ἀεί
aei
ah-eye'
From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

 

[LanceA]

John 3:36
36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

So in this verse the people who believe in Jesus has eternal life. So they live forever.
The next part states if we don't believe the Son (Jesus) won't see life (death). Then it goes on and says the wrath of God remains in him. So if we are annihilated in the Lake of fire how does God's wrath remain in us?

 

[Mitspa]

Paul makes not mention of consequences here, only the pointlessness of living without the blessed hope of the resurrection. If a person's decision to follow Christ is based on the fear of consequences rather than love, appreciation for salvation, and desire to please Jesus, then that person is doomed. Jesus accepts the surrender motivated by love alone, and not by fear, for "perfect love casts out fear. The best way to determine if you are sitting in church in an attempt to obtain fire insurance is to consider how you would like to live if the need for fire insurance was suddenly unnecessary. And here lies the uncomfortable truth of the true condition of the heart of most Christians: that they selfishly place self preservation above loving, obeying, and pleasing God.

Love does not ignore the justice of God or attempt to replace His judgment with ones own. Love does not deny the truth, but rejoices in the truth. Fear is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom, without a understanding of God judgment, we cannot understand the work of Christ...One should not cherry pick certain scriptures and make-up doctrine as you "feel" or as one "thinks"..

 

[ASUK]

God does not torment anyone.

But it would be God's creations that do it.

If I was the President and you were a terrorist I might have you water boarded (tortured). In this case did I torture you? Not personally but it was my call that made it happened.

God is just but also merciful. Infinite torture for a finite crime is not merciful or loving.

 

[LanceA]

But it would be God's creations that do it.

If I was the President and you were a terrorist I might have you water boarded (tortured). In this case did I torture you? Not personally but it was my call that made it happened.

God is just but also merciful. Infinite torture for a finite crime is not merciful or loving.

Haha God water boarding satan. I would watch that on paper view

 

[Euphemia]

But it would be God's creations that do it.

If I was the President and you were a terrorist I might have you water boarded (tortured). In this case did I torture you? Not personally but it was my call that made it happened.

God is just but also merciful. Infinite torture for a finite crime is not merciful or loving.

At the occasion of the Great White Throne Judgment, there is no mercy on offer. Hell is a place where evil is contained and confined away from all Creation forever. It has to happen.

 

[Butch5]

Aionios does not mean duration at all, it means " perpetuity, ever, forever" . You must be thinking of the word "kosmos" which means duration of time. Any good Greek dictionary will tell you the complete opposite meaning of "Aionios" is "kosmos"
Sometimes knowing the complete opposite meaning of a word helps you understand what it does not mean.

Actually, Aionios cannot mean forever no matter what the dictionary says. A word cannot have opposite meanings. In English translations of the Bible the Aaronic priesthood is said to go on forever, Paul said it ended. The word translated forever is the Hebrew word "owlam" and the Greek word "aionion"

34 For the wave breast and the heave shoulder have I taken of the children of Israel from off the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and have given them unto Aaron the priest and unto his sons by a statute for ever from among the children of Israel. (Lev 7:34 KJV)

There is example after example of ordinances in the Mosaic Law that are said to last "Owlam" or "Aionion". Those ordinances have ended since the Law has been completed. Jesus said so and Paul said so.

The word "aionios" cannot mean both eternal and not eternal. So, we are left to decide who has it write, the Bible or the Scholars?

 

[Butch5]

Yep. The spirit of man is not subject to physical death. Spirit lives forever.

Don't forget the word of God teaches us that on Judgment Day the dead will have been raised from their graves---physically---and their bodies will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, but their spirits will languish there forever.

Revelation 20:5b; 11-14 (NLT)
...(The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)

11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

What spirit?

 

[Butch5]

Php 2:6, Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; (NIV)
Php 2:7, rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

God can never change his nature. He can cloth himself in flesh which is what he did, and decide not to use his power for his own benefit, but still wrapped in flesh he was God. You strip away the flesh and what you have is the Glory of God.

Are you oneness?

 

[Butch5]

You might want to tell Jesus he was not talking to a dead man when he was fellowshipping with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of transfiguration.

It was a vision of the kingdom.

KJV Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:1-9 KJV)