Very Disheartened And Tired

[KingJ]

1. You don't think desperation could be a broken and contrite heart? 2. Btw, their are plenty of examples of God helping desperate people, read Exodus! 3. You are right he searches the hearts of people, so really why even assume? You aren't God, you don't have a clue, might sound harsh but 4. your putting yourself on a pedestal and judging others if you think you can tell their spiritual condition and whether they will be answered. Sorry to say but even though you mentioned in your post you are not trying to judge whether Cosmic is saved, it really doesn't appear that way by your message. Also I don't understand your first point on someone starving in Africa? 5. Are you saying people who are poor/needy can't be saved?

1. No. It can be a contributing factor. Does feeding a beggar result in me falling in love with that beggar or she with me? A broken and contrite heart has to do with a sincere desire to repent of sin and make right with God.
2. Desperation never got God's help. If it did there would be no starving people in Africa. It is not that God hates them. Just He chooses to not hear prayers of sinners John 9:31. (edit I agree with Euphemia below ).
3. I am not assuming. Re-read Kens post.
4. Judging one another is Christianity 101 1 Cor 5:12. I would expect the same from any other brethren who loved me. Pedestal?Can you quote a section and ''judge'' me properly on that.
5. When we understand that we are living the life God wants us to live down here, we grasp that He will not leave us to starve like those in Africa. A dead person cannot preach. A hungry person can barely preach. Hence raw Christian common sense should tell us all that God will provide and look after us.

Conclusion: Ken has nothing to stress about IF He loves Jesus. We need to encourage Him to properly examine himself for that 1 Cor 11:31 and then just leave it all in His hands.

 

[Euphemia]

2. Desperation never got God's help. If it did there would be no starving people in Africa. It is not that God hates them. Just He chooses to not hear prayers of sinners John 9:31.

This is just patently false. You are quoting a false belief of someone who had no knowledge of truth. God takes compassion on sinners and their plights. God answered the prayers of unrighteous Hagar for protection over Ishmael, and He answered wicked King Ahab's earnest prayer accompanied by fasting. That said, we also know from scripture that unrighteousness can hinder our prayers. I am so glad that God sees our hearts.

People in the world starve because of various reasons, and in third world countries it is because of corrupt governments. That is why Christians all over the world are called into action to feed the poor and clothe the naked---and to preach the live-saving Gospel message.

 

[KingJ]

This is just patently false. You are quoting a false belief of someone who had no knowledge of truth. God takes compassion on sinners and their plights. People in the world starve because of various reasons, and in third world countries it is because of corrupt governments. That is why Christians all over the world are called into action to fed the poor and clothe the naked---and to preach the live-saving Gospel message.

I stand corrected Euphemia!!!! Amen!!! God does reach out and help through us!

My mindset was just on all those suffering without our help. There is no mana from heaven for them.

 

[Euphemia]

I stand corrected Euphemia!!!! Amen!!! God does reach out and help through us!

My mindset was just on all those suffering without our help. There is no mana from heaven for them.

I really appreciate your response, KingJ! I knew you had it in you!

 

[God is Love]

I do believe we can lose our salvation and I don't believe it is as simple as simply accepting Jesus as our Savior.

If your belief were true all would be going to heaven and there would be no need to head the many warnings by Paul like this one or this one . The clearest is probably So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall. I could quote many. But it is pointless as ultimately....we would both agree on this...

A person continuing in mortal sin was either 1. never saved (you / OSAS) or has 2. shipwrecked his salvation. We don't just lose our salvation, we need to shipwreck it. That takes steering a ship into very stormy waters (mortal sin) and keeping course (continuing with no '''sincere''' repentance) in those waters.

As for accepting Jesus. We can say that a million times and still not be saved. If we don't pass a session of God judging our heart and mind. God is not dumb. Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. A Christian must know and believe that Jesus is Lord, not hold onto a catch phrase they repeated at an alter call.

You don't think desperation could be a broken and contrite heart? Btw, their are plenty of examples of God helping desperate people, read Exodus! You are right he searches the hearts of people, so really why even assume? You aren't God, you don't have a clue, might sound harsh but your putting yourself on a pedestal and judging others if you think you can tell their spiritual condition and whether they will be answered. Sorry to say but even though you mentioned in your post you are not trying to judge whether Cosmic is saved, it really doesn't appear that way by your message. Also I don't understand your first point on someone starving in Africa? Are you saying people who are poor/needy can't be saved?

Sorry meant Ken not Cosmic. You both have similar threads so I switched names by accident

 

[God is Love]

1. No. It can be a contributing factor. Does feeding a beggar result in me falling in love with that beggar or she with me? A broken and contrite heart has to do with a sincere desire to repent of sin and make right with God.
2. Desperation never got God's help. If it did there would be no starving people in Africa. It is not that God hates them. Just He chooses to not hear prayers of sinners . (edit I agree with Euphemia below ).
3. I am not assuming. Re-read Kens post.
4. Judging one another is Christianity 101 . I would expect the same from any other brethren who loved me. Pedestal?Can you quote a section and ''judge'' me properly on that.
5. When we understand that we are living the life God wants us to live down here, we grasp that He will not leave us to starve like those in Africa. A dead person cannot preach. A hungry person can barely preach. Hence raw Christian common sense should tell us all that God will provide and look after us.

Conclusion: Ken has nothing to stress about IF He loves Jesus. We need to encourage Him to properly examine himself for that and then just leave it all in His hands.

1. That's what I meant on desperation.

I read the chapters in the verses you provided, and I still believe the ability to lose salvation is a false teaching. I wish I could elaborate but i'm a new Christian and have yet to do an exegesis of 1 Corinthians. Hopefully someday we will be able to have a more even sided discussion.

 

[JustPassingThru]

He does NOT listen to prayers of sinners, only those who worship Him John 9:31.

I have a question about what you say, if God doesn't listen to the prayers of sinners, ...how then did I, the chief of sinners, get saved?

Besides, Jn 9:31 is the conjecture of the blind man, not the Truth of the Word that became Flesh, ....Jesus Christ.

And this....,

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Paul says work OUT, not work FOR or work IN, just like we work out for sports or to be healthy, or reanimation of an injured limb, we already possess what we are working out, it's not something new to be added to or to be gained.

I don't want to start a OSAS debate, just pointing out the verses in their proper context.

Blessings,

Gene

 

[Euphemia]

I have a question about what you say, if God doesn't listen to the prayers of sinners, ...how then did I, the chief of sinners, get saved?

Besides, Jn 9:31 is the conjecture of the blind man, not the Truth of the Word that became Flesh, ....Jesus Christ.

And this....,

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Paul says work OUT, not work FOR or work IN, just like we work out for sports or to be healthy, or reanimation of an injured limb, we already possess what we are working out, it's not something new to be added to or to be gained.

I don't want to start a OSAS debate, just pointing out the verses in their proper context.

Blessings,

Gene

Exactly.

 

[kenmtb]

Now I am confused and worried. What is a mortal sin? I sin every day in many ways. How do you stop all sin. How can you even eat a piece of bread without breaking the first commandment? Sin is everywhere and the worse thing is you commit sins and are not even aware of it. I guess we are talking about continuing in unrepentant sinful ways after salvation. Some of the points of views can leave grey areas in salvation. Like what is considered a shipwreck as opposed to being stuck on a sand bar?

 

[KingJ]

I have a question about what you say, if God doesn't listen to the prayers of sinners, ...how then did I, the chief of sinners, get saved?

Besides, Jn 9:31 is the conjecture of the blind man, not the Truth of the Word that became Flesh, ....Jesus Christ.

When we decide to repent we are not exactly a 'sinneR'.

Then for context:

1. Did the blind man write the book of John?
2. John 9:32 is equally interesting / clear. We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him. ''Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind. “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.” They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.
3. There are many verses supporting this Psalm 66:18, Prov 15:29, Isa 1:11-15, Psalm 109:7, Prov 15:8, Job 27:9, Job 35:13.

And this....,

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Paul says work OUT, not work FOR or work IN, just like we work out for sports or to be healthy, or reanimation of an injured limb, we already possess what we are working out, it's not something new to be added to or to be gained.

I don't want to start a OSAS debate, just pointing out the verses in their proper context.

Blessings,

Gene

That is not proper context though. You are twisting it. Read it 'as is'.

Work out = work out. It is inline with 1 Cor 11:31.

I am not suggesting work 'for' or work 'in'. No, working out is not like sports! Work out salvation in fear and trembling = judge yourself harshly that you are in the faith = you say you are saved, are you sure?= do you judge your actions and heart harshly? = How do you know that you didn't just repeat a common catch phrase at alter call = are you sure you not just brainwashing yourself into believing you are saved? = judge yourself harshly = examine yourself truthfully....daily and especially as you see the last days approaching.

Work out your salvation in fear and trembling = work out your salvation in fear and trembling.

 

[Euphemia]

Now I am confused and worried. What is a mortal sin? I sin every day in many ways. How do you stop all sin. How can you even eat a piece of bread without breaking the first commandment? Sin is everywhere and the worse thing is you commit sins and are not even aware of it. I guess we are talking about continuing in unrepentant sinful ways after salvation. Some of the points of views can leave grey areas in salvation. Like what is considered a shipwreck as opposed to being stuck on a sand bar?

There is no such thing, biblically, so no need for worry.

 

[God is Love]

Now I am confused and worried. What is a mortal sin? I sin every day in many ways. How do you stop all sin. How can you even eat a piece of bread without breaking the first commandment? Sin is everywhere and the worse thing is you commit sins and are not even aware of it. I guess we are talking about continuing in unrepentant sinful ways after salvation. Some of the points of views can leave grey areas in salvation. Like what is considered a shipwreck as opposed to being stuck on a sand bar?

What are you asking? If sounds like you're asking if you have commited the unpardonable sin?

 

[KingJ]

Now I am confused and worried. What is a mortal sin? I sin every day in many ways. How do you stop all sin. How can you even eat a piece of bread without breaking the first commandment? Sin is everywhere and the worse thing is you commit sins and are not even aware of it. I guess we are talking about continuing in unrepentant sinful ways after salvation. Some of the points of views can leave grey areas in salvation. Like what is considered a shipwreck as opposed to being stuck on a sand bar?

There is no confusion. It just requires common sense actually / lateral thought off what scripture says.

1. In the OT God ordained that an adulterer was stoned to death and a thief got his hands chopped off. Why not stone both to death if sin = sin according to God?

2. Why do some sinners live to be old and others die young?

3. When will you leave your spouse? For adultery? once off? consistent? or simply the thought of it?

4. God will forgive us all 7 x 70 times a day for sin if we repent! Amen! BUT can we repent truthfully if we are continuing in mortal sin? Would you really trust the repentance of a spouse after consistent adultery?

 

[KingJ]

There is no such thing, biblically, so no need for worry.

The OT is full of examples of mortal and venial sins. It is the very reason a panel of elders were appointed to judge matters. It is the very reason the word 'judge' exists. God doesn't change. God doesn't show preference to us NT.

Sin is only sin for the unsaved. Just as rejection of Jesus = rejection of Jesus. To the saved however, there are levels of giving in to sin. We don't lose free will. Push that envelope and it would be very unwise for anyone to be confident in OSAS.

Heb 10:29 could not be clearer: How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Why I say there is no reason to argue though is because: We both believe someone continuing in mortal sin is en route to hell. You would say they were never saved and I would say they are shipwrecking their salvation.

 

[Euphemia]

The OT is full of examples of mortal and venial sins. It is the very reason a panel of elders were appointed to judge matters. It is the very reason the word 'judge' exists. God doesn't change. God doesn't show preference to us NT.

All sin is as deadly to the one who commits it as the next, if it goes unrepented of. There is no such thing as mortal sin and venial sin.

 

[KingJ]

All sin is as deadly to the one who commits it as the next, if it goes unrepented of. There is no such thing as mortal sin and venial sin.

You need to think on it more. If we were angels I would agree with you. But as humans, no.

Angels committed one sin and were kicked out of heaven for eternity. We reach that same level of intent when we die and go to hell. That's why we go to hell with them.

God still has hope for all the sinners living. God has no hope for the sinners that are dead. That's why they are dead.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Now I am confused and worried. What is a mortal sin? I sin every day in many ways. How do you stop all sin. How can you even eat a piece of bread without breaking the first commandment? Sin is everywhere and the worse thing is you commit sins and are not even aware of it. I guess we are talking about continuing in unrepentant sinful ways after salvation. Some of the points of views can leave grey areas in salvation. Like what is considered a shipwreck as opposed to being stuck on a sand bar?

Ken, chill bro,

Answer these questions,

When did Jesus die on the Cross for the sins of the world (what year)?

Did He take on all of your sins? Yes?------No?

When were you born again (what year)?

Which of your sins did Jesus not take on, pay the price, suffer the wrath of the Father for?

Hint, ...the answer is the response to question 1.

Just like there are physical Laws of Nature the are Spiritual Laws, the one that concerns your question is,

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23

If a born again child of God continues on in their sin, then it's sin Num 32:23, and not God that will cause death, that death will be manifested in many ways, first will be Communion with God will die, the desire to read the Word is next, it can also include the death of an relationship, marriage partner, close friend, family, it can come in the form of sickness and the sickness can result in the child being taken home.

I suggest if you feel that don't have Communion with God, and you have stopped reading the Word, then just ask the Holy Spirit to search your heart to reveal the problem, confess it, repent of it and Communion will be restored, it's that easy, you don't have to do any laps or any other kind of works.

Blessings,

Gene

 

[JustPassingThru]

When we decide to repent we are not exactly a 'sinneR'.

Then for context:

1. Did the blind man write the book of John?
2. John 9:32 is equally interesting / clear. We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him. ''Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind. “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.” They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.
3. There are many verses supporting this Psalm 66:18, Prov 15:29, Isa 1:11-15, Psalm 109:7, Prov 15:8, Job 27:9, Job 35:13.


That is not proper context though. You are twisting it. Read it 'as is'.

Work out = work out. It is inline with 1 Cor 11:31.

I am not suggesting work 'for' or work 'in'. No, working out is not like sports! Work out salvation in fear and trembling = judge yourself harshly that you are in the faith = you say you are saved, are you sure?= do you judge your actions and heart harshly? = How do you know that you didn't just repeat a common catch phrase at alter call = are you sure you not just brainwashing yourself into believing you are saved? = judge yourself harshly = examine yourself truthfully....daily and especially as you see the last days approaching.

Work out your salvation in fear and trembling = work out your salvation in fear and trembling.

Are you saying I wasn't a sinner before I was born again (?) and also I'm not a sinner now?

To answer your question, no the blind man did not write the book, John did, what has that have to do with anything, the Holy Spirit inspired John to write the record of the Life of Jesus as he saw it, that doesn't change the fact that what the blind man said was merely conjecture, the Word records the words of many people, animals, Angels, the devil and demons, so are you saying everything that was spoken in the Word is Divine Truth?

What about James saying earthly wisdom comes from demons, and Jesus said the devil is a liar and the father of lies, so then, ...earthly demonic wisdom and the lies of the devil is to be considered Divine Truth too?

Or the witnesses at the trial of Jesus that said, "He said destroy this Temple and I will raise it up in three days," that was what Jesus said, but that wasn't the meaning of what He said, is that Divine Truth, does that mean we can tell half truths and it's not lying?

Or let's take Simon Magnus, he said to Peter, "sell me this power," talking about being filled with the Holy Spirit (which incidentally is being perpetrated by many charlatans today in the ilk of Simon), is that Divine Truth, can we buy the filling of the Holy Spirit?

Surely you don't believe these few examples I have given, and there are hundreds more, are Divine Truths we are to receive and appropriate into lives?

I have learned there is a simple test to determine if what I believe is correct, ...is there just one single verse in all of the Word that contradicts what I believe, that makes Jesus a liar, if so, then what I believe is wrong, ....it's as simple as that. John 6:44, 39

Blessings,

Gene

 

[Euphemia]

You need to think on it more. If we were angels I would agree with you. But as humans, no.

Angels committed one sin and were kicked out of heaven for eternity. We reach that same level of intent when we die and go to hell. That's why we go to hell with them.

All sin---even just one---will keep us out of heaven.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Actually, it's not our sins that keeps us from inheriting Heaven, it's our sin nature.

Jesus died, paid the price and took the penalty for all of the sins of the World on the cross, Father, in His sovereignty, has willed to not remember them and they have been placed in a sack, tied close and thrown into the deepest part of the ocean, our sins have been separated from us as far as the East is from the West.

To go to Heaven we need to be inheritors of the country, that comes with our new birth (Paul tells us we are citizens of heaven), with the Holy Spirit as our father and the Word of God our mother 1 Pet 1:23, we are new creations in Christ. 2 Cor 5:17, ...hence, as children of the owner of Heaven we inherit Heaven, which is illustrated in Lev chapters 1-7, the five offerings, two are obligatory, the sin and the trespass offerings and the other three, burnt, grain, peace are optional.

Blessings,

Gene