Very Concerned

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Romans 9:13 (KJV)
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Malachi 1:2-3 (KJV)
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

One law supersedes another law just like the law of aerodynamic supersedes the law of gravity.
 
However you think Esau got a poor deal - he did trade his birthrite.....

Esau we know was a descendant of Abraham. We, you, and they don't know of any Israeli that is a descendant of Abraham.

Esau traded his birthright, but you don't think any Israeli can trade his birthright, a birthright you don't know them to have in the first place.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
 
I have been trying to think of parallels in scripture to draw with the Jews just to try stimulate lateral thought. Not the best so far, but here's what I have:

1. Abraham. God chose Him. He committed adultery with Hagar. Yet He and his descendants remained the chosen bloodline for Jesus.
2. Satan. God promoted him in heaven. God gave him power. He is out of God's presence. But he still has his power.
3. Samson. He was tempted by Delilah and cut his hair. But God still restored him and he stilled fulfilled his purpose in taking out the Philistines.
4. David. He committed adultery and murder yet God saw him fulfill his purpose. Acts 13:36 "Now when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed''.

I can't stop thinking about the 70 weeks given to the Jews in Daniel. God is clearly not yet done with them. Them being evil and lost is not a reason for God not fulfilling His promise.

Today, despite how it was achieved...we still have a temple that needs to be built. We still have a new Israel / home for the Jews. We have not yet seen the 144000 virgins. We have not yet seen the two prophets that never died. It is quite a long stretch to assume / believe in replacement theology. Why would someone believe it / make such an issue of it?

Rev 11 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. (John is clearly isolating gentiles from Jews 'in the last days') They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. 7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city -which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.
 
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I am very concerned over the vast number of Christians who are strongly standing with the physical nation of Israel and believe that in doing so they are standing with God. I DO NOT STAND with nor do I SUPPORT the physical nation of Israel. The reason why is:

· They are not true Israel – Ro. 9:6b-8

· They are not Abraham’s children (offspring) – Ro. 9:6b-8

· They are not the children of promise – Ro. 9:6b-8

· They are not God’s children – Ro. 9:6b-8

· We, the true church, are all the above – Ro. 9:6b-8

· They were broken off from God’s vine due to unbelief – Ro. 11

· They are enemies of the gospel of Jesus Christ – Ro. 11

· Although a remnant will be saved, they are still enemies of the gospel – Ro. 11

· Jesus Christ made believing Jews and Gentiles one in Christ – Eph. 2:14-18

· In Christ, there is neither Jew or Gentile – all one in Christ – Gal. 3:28

· In Christ Jesus we are all children of God through faith – Gal. 3:26

· If we belong to Christ, we are Abraham’s seed – Gal. 3:29

· If we belong to Christ, we are heirs according to the promise – Gal. 3:29

· Those who do not belong to Christ are none of the above (3) – Gal. 3:26-29

· Physical Jerusalem is of Hagar, the slave woman – Gal. 4:22-31

· Physical Jerusalem is in slavery with her children – Gal. 4:22-31

· Physical Israel is a son born according to the flesh – Gal. 4:22-31

· Physical Israel is a persecutor of Christ and his offspring – Gal. 4:22-31

· Believers in Jesus Christ are of the Jerusalem that is above – Gal. 4:22-31

· Believers in Jesus Christ are the children of promise – Gal. 4:22-31

· Believers in Jesus Christ are the children of the free woman – Gal. 4:22-31

· Physical Israel is against the God of Abraham – Matt. 12:30

· Physical Israel does not worship the God of Abraham – Jn. 8:19

· Physical Israel does not belong to God but to Satan – Jn. 8:42-47

So, if I were to stand with the physical nation of Israel I would be supporting a people group who does not believe in the God of Abraham, does not worship him, are not the children of promise, are not the children of God, are enemies of the gospel of Jesus Christ, are persecutors of Christ Jesus and his offspring, are of Satan, and they do the work of the devil. These are not my words. This is what scripture teaches. If you are standing with this godless nation, and you are supporting them, scripture would thus indicate that you are supporting godless people who oppose the gospel of Christ, who are enemies of the cross, who persecute and perhaps even put to death believers in Christ, and who are of Satan. Physical Israel is antichrist. They could be The Antichrist, so you could be supporting the antichrist in the murdering of Christians, who are the true descendants of Abraham. Please think about this. Please pray about this. Would God be pleased with you giving your support to the enemy of Christ, and of his gospel and his people? We who are believers in Christ are the ones Christians are to support and stand with, not in sin, but in the faith.
I gotta be honest and upfront here. What I'm reading here is screaming out 'antisemitism' .
What city did Jesus cry over?
Was it a physical city, were the inhabitants physical people?
Did Jesus refer to them as 'lost sheep'?
Why did Jesus act as He did over a pile of stones that was the Temple of God, when the real Temple is us...our bodies?
He referred to that pile of stones as the Father's house when He quoted Scripture. " My house shall be a house of prayer (for the nations)....."Why would He stress over a pile of rocks?
Why didn't Jesus cut His losses and just work with the gentiles instead of physical Israel?
And remember.....the physical Jews did not crucify Jesus...we did. It was our sins that put him on the cross. Hitler's Nazis blamed the Jews for being the murderers of Jesus to justify their antisemitic murder lust.

You need to foster compassion as Paul did for the lost sheep of the Lord's pasture.
 
You continue repeating the same half-truths, without acknowledging the full word of God. Is it beyond you to respond the the verse reference in the first post? What of Isaac's children? Esau was Jacob's brother, twin even, not a bastard child.

True enough, Esau lost his inheritance rights, but you would make God a liar. Both Esau and Ishmael are descendants of Abraham. Did not God give his promises to Abraham and his descendants? Then why wasn't Esau joint heir? How could Esau have lost his inheritance rights? If you tell me the story of the stew, you'll be showing me that you have no understanding of the question, which lays at the foundation of your theology.

Instead of talking and communicating in a respectful way, you seem intent on making personal attacks and comments. Those things are not needed neither are they appreciated.

Having said that, allow me to say that............. Esau is referred to in the New Testament as that profane person who sold his birthright. (Heb. 12:16), and once done, it could not be undone my friend. That is the whole truth and frankly I am surprised you would not know that.

If you will read my original comment it was said that ISHMAEL was the illegitimate son. He was the child of Abraham and Haggar and he had no inheritance rights.

You are convicted by your own comments my friend. You said.............."Then why wasn't Esau joint heir? How could Esau have lost his inheritance rights?"

Then one sentence later you answered your own comment...................."True enough, Esau lost his inheritance rights,"
Do you not grasp what that means????
He forfeited any and all of his responsibilities and honors and inheritance which were his by birth.
This is just not that hard to understand my brother...really. You are looking for something that is not there!!!!!

God gave His promises to the LEGITMATE descendants of Abraham and Sara, and when Esau sold his birthright is was a done deal and he even took an oath to that fact in Gen. 25:33.
 
I gotta be honest and upfront here. What I'm reading here is screaming out 'antisemitism' .
What city did Jesus cry over?
Was it a physical city, were the inhabitants physical people?
Did Jesus refer to them as 'lost sheep'?
Why did Jesus act as He did over a pile of stones that was the Temple of God, when the real Temple is us...our bodies?
He referred to that pile of stones as the Father's house when He quoted Scripture. " My house shall be a house of prayer (for the nations)....."Why would He stress over a pile of rocks?
Why didn't Jesus cut His losses and just work with the gentiles instead of physical Israel?
And remember.....the physical Jews did not crucify Jesus...we did. It was our sins that put him on the cross. Hitler's Nazis blamed the Jews for being the murderers of Jesus to justify their antisemitic murder lust.

You need to foster compassion as Paul did for the lost sheep of the Lord's pasture.

You are so very right! Even today the Muslims agree with Hitler's claim and demand that Israel be wiped off the map and in fact they have tried to do that since 1948!
 
Esau we know was a descendant of Abraham. We, you, and they don't know of any Israeli that is a descendant of Abraham.

Esau traded his birthright, but you don't think any Israeli can trade his birthright, a birthright you don't know them to have in the first place.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Again..........do you stop and think about what you are about to say before allowing your fingers to work over a keyboard????

I want to be caring, and loving and respectful to you, but dadgumme!

Esau did NOT TRADE his birthright...HE SOLD IT!

When he sold it he lost all the rights of inheritance from Abraham!

Stick with the reason and please stop insisting that any Israeli can SELL his birthright. ANY ONE CAN! But that has nothing to do with the price of eggs in China!!!

We are talking about what REALLY happened 5000 years ago with Esau NOT what may or may not happen with a person in Israel today.

Honestly, the more you try to make your agenda work, the more you are proving to everyone that you really do not know what the Scriptures say.

Now......how long have you hated the Jews??????
 
Esau we know was a descendant of Abraham. We, you, and they don't know of any Israeli that is a descendant of Abraham.
<<Snip>>.
Do you agree that the Lord knows who the Israeli descendants of Abraham are? Surely that is what counts.
(I'll get round to reading the previous pages if I find time)
 
Esau we know was a descendant of Abraham. We, you, and they don't know of any Israeli that is a descendant of Abraham.

Esau traded his birthright, but you don't think any Israeli can trade his birthright, a birthright you don't know them to have in the first place.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

You just said........."We, you, and they don't know of any Israeli that is a descendant of Abraham."

Since when does it matter if ME or YOU or any one else knows who is a descendant of Abraham????

It is NOT about us but instead Almighty God who is in control of all things.

But as a matter of fact, I know several Jewish people who are descendants of Abraham!!!!
 
There is no question that the Nation of Israel forsook the terms of the Mosaic Covenant with God issued at Mount Sinai ...
No debate about that.... It was a Covenant between God and Man... Man had his terms, God had his......
Man blew it.
Within THAT context - Israel cannot CLAIM that it DESERVES the land.... because it doesn't....

So.. That being the case.... What are we dealing with here?
We are dealing with God's Promise to Israel to Regather them and Return them to the Land.......
We are dealing with God's promise to be Faithful to HIS own promises.....
AND... To do this out of respect for His Holy Name!

Notice that it's NOT out of respect for Israel.... They already blew it.....

That was NOT a 2-sided covenant conditioned upon Israel's Faithfulness....
The specifics were listed in Ezekiel 20, Jerimiah 3, Hosea, and several others....

God will Regather them as an unfaithful nation - which they do not deserve...
God will RESTORE them to faithfulness - which they do not deserve...
God will do this for the sake of HIS HOLY NAME - which they do not deserve...

So... You don't like Israel... I get that.....
You don't particularly believe in their cause... Ok.
Perhaps you don't even BELIEVE they deserve any consideration - after blowing it as many times as they did......

BUT... You should think long and hard about the Consequences of intervening and PREVENTING God from doing something that HE is Obviously doing for the sake of His Holy Name.....

Because... WE don't DESERVE God's Grace either!
 
...AND during the giving of the covenant, what was happening? G-D, ONLY, was making the covenant, while the receiver SLEPT because G-D PUT HIM TO SLEEP!!!! Think about that for awhile.

G-d puts, throughout the first Scriptures, the story of His love for the unfaithful Bride, but because so many believers devalue the Tenakh, they don't know it. They don't realize that throughout those Scriptures, the story of the unfaithful Bride is their own story as well.

YOU (and I) were/are unfaithful. The story is YOUR/MY story. Most of us should bow before our holy G-d in shame for our dismal and wrongful dismissal of these Scriptures, for our ridiculous critique of them, and for our denial of their present-day relevance. WE ARE IGNORANT, intolerant, and awfully silly when we grasp at the supposed "new testament," ignoring 2/3 of the Scriptures He so graciously gave us for our education and edification!
 
I have been trying to think of parallels in scripture to draw with the Jews just to try stimulate lateral thought. Not the best so far, but here's what I have:

1. Abraham. God chose Him. He committed adultery with Hagar. Yet He and his descendants remained the chosen bloodline for Jesus.

You deny that Abraham's descendants, the Arabs, are the chosen bloodline, so your statement contradicts your beliefs. Also, Abraham, David, and Sampson, in spite of their sins, kept their faith in God, therefor don't serve as examples of God having a chosen people apart from Faith -- it is absolutely inexcusable for you to ignore that key fact! And, yet ignore you must because your doctrine is unbiblical, and far worse.

And, it's still just a silly game you play in pretending that Israelis are the bloodline of Jacob.

I can't stop thinking about the 70 weeks given to the Jews in Daniel. God is clearly not yet done with them. Them being evil and lost is not a reason for God not fulfilling His promise.

The 70 weeks of years expired during the first century, and you conclude from this that God isn't done with them? I can't help but to think you can lead a horse dying of thirst to water, but you still can't make it drink.

Today, despite how it was achieved...we still have a temple that needs to be built.
A temple needs to be built? Jesus is our temple. Jesus ended sacrifices with his own sacrifice. Forget the horse analogy. I have another analogy, pastor Jack Schaap. There are youtube videos of him enthusiastically stimulating masterbation in front of his congregation, for the attention of the young men in the congregation. He wrote a book arguing at length that for males, Christianity is the act of having sexual intercourse with Jesus. He was only fired by the church after he was busted molesting a child, for which he is now in prison. Here's the kicker, he inherited one of America's biggest megachurches, and his flagrant blasphemy and perversion didn't seem to hurt church attendance at all. If I didn't believe in the Devil, I've really have to ask what's wrong with people that common sense isn't common, and why there's no end of willingness to twist scripture.

The verses in the first post have been ignored by those who disagree with the first post. Why don't you directly address those?

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. (John is clearly isolating gentiles from Jews 'in the last days') They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. 7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city -which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

"Go and measure the temple of God." The temple is mentioned with no introduction. That tells us it was the second temple, the temple Jesus called of God. If it were another temple, we'd have been introduced to the new temple. John would have said something like, "And, I saw a new temple...."

And, look, Jerusalem is called Sodom and Egypt. Why don't you call Jerusalem Sodom and Egypt? Do you want the capital of Israel moved from Tel Aviv to Sodom?

BTW, we know from history that the city was trampled for 42 months, after the temple was destroyed by the Roman army, 1260 days after the siege of Jerusalem began. All that's left is for m to tell you who the two witnesses are.
 
I gotta be honest and upfront here. What I'm reading here is screaming out 'antisemitism' .

The first post is by a Christian, not a Jew.

What city did Jesus cry over?
Was it a physical city, were the inhabitants physical people?
Did Jesus refer to them as 'lost sheep'?
Why did Jesus act as He did over a pile of stones that was the Temple of God, when the real Temple is us...our bodies?

Are the answers to these questions suppose to help your case? The answers I'd give wouldn't help you case. Why don't you address the verses in the first post, rather than spamming vague questions?

And remember.....the physical Jews did not crucify Jesus...we did. It was our sins that put him on the cross. Hitler's Nazis blamed the Jews for being the murderers of Jesus to justify their antisemitic murder lust.

The Bible blames the Jews, so you're calling the Apostle Paul a nazi. You've even calling Jesus a nazi. But, I don't believe the nazis were Christian or cared one way or another who killed Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-15. But, you already knew this... Your role is one of coverup.

You need to foster compassion as Paul did for the lost sheep of the Lord's pasture.

You mean Paul, that antisemitic nazi?
 
Since when does it matter if ME or YOU or any one else knows who is a descendant of Abraham????

It matters to you because your theology is based on believing that Israelis are descendants of Abraham. (And, then you believe that it's the bloodline that matters, not faith.)

But as a matter of fact, I know several Jewish people who are descendants of Abraham!!!!

They told you this? How do they know they're descendants of Abraham? They don't, just like I said.
 
You deny that Abraham's descendants, the Arabs, are the chosen bloodline, so your statement contradicts your beliefs. Also, Abraham, David, and Sampson, in spite of their sins, kept their faith in God, therefor don't serve as examples of God having a chosen people apart from Faith -- it is absolutely inexcusable for you to ignore that key fact! And, yet ignore you must because your doctrine is unbiblical, and far worse.

And, it's still just a silly game you play in pretending that Israelis are the bloodline of Jacob.



The 70 weeks of years expired during the first century, and you conclude from this that God isn't done with them? I can't help but to think you can lead a horse dying of thirst to water, but you still can't make it drink.
Seriously, Barnabas, you do not know the Scriptures. Your arguments, then, cannot hold water. Or anything else.
 
Having said that, allow me to say that............. Esau is referred to in the New Testament as that profane person who sold his birthright. (), and once done, it could not be undone my friend. That is the whole truth and frankly I am surprised you would not know that.

What surprises me is that you don't believe that one can lose his birthright, even though you know it happened with Esau. You get nothing from the story of Esau. (And, you're still playing a silly game by pretending that Israelis are Abraham's descendants, to start with.)

If you will read my original comment it was said that ISHMAEL was the illegitimate son. He was the child of Abraham and Haggar and he had no inheritance rights.

And, yet, Paul uses Ishmael as proof of what I've been trying to explain to you. "Not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God," What don't you understand?
 
Perhaps G-d made a mistake when He called Isaac Abraham's "son, your only son" when it came to the Promise. G-d erred? and Barnabas is right?
 
...Abraham's descendants, the Arabs, are the chosen bloodline...

And, it's still just a silly game you play in pretending that Israelis are the bloodline of Jacob.

Yep... There it is....

The Arabs are THE chosen people...
The Israelis have nothing to do with the bloodline of Abraham or Jacob....

Now... If the Arabs REALLY are God's chosen people.....
Their Religion - ISLAM must be the True Religion.....

The Jews are Deceivers who perverted the True Word of God and the Christians are just Deceived Idolaters.....

That clears up a lot.

Thanks
 
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