Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Cosmicwaffle, May 31, 2014.

  1. 1 Timothy 2:1-5 KJV

    I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

    2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

    3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

    4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    Why does the KJV translate verse 4 as "Who WILL have ALL MEN to be saved,"?
  2. And now reading, I find 1 Timothy 4:10, which says

    10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, SPECIALLY of those that believe.

    It almost sounds like universalism
  3. This is the word in Greek thelō. My understanding it is God's will all men be saved. Other translations use desire instead of will. I'm sure someone who is more versed in Greek can explain it better
  4. But why did the King James scholars write it like it is? It clearly sounds like he will save all men. Plus you have 1 Timothy 4:10.

    I know some people argue more for KJV and others for newer translations, but it is my understanding that the scholars who wrote the KJV were very well educated in all the languages of the bible.
  5. BTW, not arguing for universalism, just came across these verses and they seem pretty clear to me. At least in the KJV
  6. "Will"
    thélō; fut. thelḗsō. To will, wish, desire, implying active volition and purpose.
  7. Yes but where does that HAVE come from right after it? Wouldn't it make more sense to write "Who wills all men to be saved" or "Who wills to have all men be saved" instead of "Who will have all men to be saved"?
  8. #8 CCW95A, May 31, 2014
    Last edited: May 31, 2014
    I suppose
    I suppose if the Lord wanted everyone to be saved he could do that, but where would our choice come into play?
    God did create beings that he knew before he made them who would fall, but that being did not know that. There is one thing the Lord has protected through out the ages is he gives people choice's and a will to choose their own way, and if people are going to serve him they have to want to serve him, not be forced to.
  9. Yeah, but is universalism (The teaching that all men will be saved), really impossible for God? He holds the universe on his finger yet he can't change the hearts and souls of a few men?

    But I won't go against scripture, and it does teach many will enter the lake of fire.
  10. Maybe that verse in the KJV isn't a very good translation of the word? The NASB and ESV use desire.
  11. Well if you forget the rest of the scriptures? I guess it could sound like universalism? Paul assumes the person reading these scriptures has heard and understands what he taught. Just like Peter, James, John and Jude are all written in the assumption that one has heard Pauls gospel and is submitted to what Paul taught. NO ONE can understand the bible (any part of it) until they understand the gospel that Paul preached and taught.
  12. It's poetic grammar and means the same as to desire.

    - Original: θέλω
    - Transliteration: Thelo
    - Phonetic: thel'-o
    - Definition:
    1. to will, have in mind, intend
    a. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
    b. to desire, to wish
    c. to love
    1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
    d. to take delight in, have pleasure

    It's proper English, though we do not use that form any longer.

    Think King Arthur English... if Jesus were saying it instead of Paul writing it He'd say "Oh I would have all men be saved" as in "It's my desire".

    1 Timothy 2:3-4 (ESV2011)
    This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
  13. God's sovereign will and desire or preference is that all men be saved. His permissive will allows for the sovereignty of man's will that He put in place to choose to receive His free gift of righteousness.
  14. 1 Timothy 4:10 is a very interesting verse, in that, God is the Saviour of all could say Saviour of all who choose, except right after.... especially of those who believe....makes it clear it means Saviour of all, those who believe and don't. So, then we must consider it to mean Saviour to all who will believe in the future, or He is the only Saviour for all whether or not they believe, or some will be saved who do not believe, possibly accepting Jesus as Lord at judgement, or those who have never heard the gospel throughout the ages.
  15. What Paul is saying is they "must" believe...true Christ died for the sins of all, but they must believe! What is the big mystery here?
  16. Another important point to consider.. We should look at context of the passage.. Here Paul is not trying to build a case on explaining what is God's will is in saving people.. The context of the passage is to say we should pray for everyone just like how God desires everyone to be saved.. The focus is on us praying for everyone.. The context is not like Romans, where he clearly talks about salvation, predestination, etc.. In such cases, we should not build a doctrine out of a word or verse..

    Also, KJV does not seems to be translating this part well :) ESV uses "desires"
  17. #17 Euphemia, Jun 2, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2014
    Jesus Christ is the Saviour to all men but those who do not enter in by their faith will have no part in Him and His precious free gift.

    I think we enter dangerous territory to even think that people who have rejected Jesus Christ are going to be saved at Judgment. There is nothing in scripture anywhere that remotely suggests that. Judgment is the end of God's mercy.
  18. I like the way that the KJV reads. I like the thees and thous but I feel they did a horrible job translating in a few areas. It seems like every time I open up the KJV I find something else I feel could have been worded much better. Maybe part of it is differences in the way we speak now versus the way we spoke then, but still. Certain words were specifically translated as very different words in different circumstances.

    Anyway, I don't really know why that verse is worded like that, but I agree that the way it was translated makes universalism seem like a possibility.
  19. I was just laying out all the possible conclusions which could be drawn from "God is the Saviour of all men", which makes Him Saviour of those who don't believe.
  20. I think Universalism is not biblical based on 1 Timothy 2:4, whether you use will or desire, because it would be stated differently. I will that someone mow the grass, or I desire that someone mow the grass, doesn't get the grass mowed. It just means I will try to get someone to mow it. They may refuse. Their choice, not mine.

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